EPT[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 3
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:11 Bleak wrote: Is that dayvie...David Kim? The Blizz guy? o.o No real way to tell lol. Send Blizzard an email to ask  | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:08 Disquiet wrote: I agree. It seems viking dominance is the crutch the entire build relies on. I'd like to see a replay where the other terran scans 2port and builds 2 reactored ports and outproduces vikings. If air dominance is lost its basically game over as your entire ground hellion army will be eaten by 3 maruaders or a tank. How would they 'outproduce' you in vikings? You have 2ports so you could do the same thing. Also they'd lose a ton of their scvs to a hellion drop unless they built tanks or a bunch of marauders, so they'd have to match your gas cost there. The best they could do is match you in vikings. Also you can't produce 4x viking off one base, and you can't match viking production and FE. I've never run into that because that's a really bad strategy, so I have no replays for that. But it should be obvious why it wouldn't work. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote: That makes no sense... How would they 'outproduce' you in vikings? You have 2ports so you could do the same thing. Also they'd lose a ton of their scvs to a hellion drop unless they built tanks or a bunch of marauders, so they'd have to match your gas cost there. The best they could do is match you in vikings. Also you can't produce 4x viking off one base. Yup, that's why I talked about making bunkers to fend off hellions, after a rather quick expand, but after re-reading my post I deem it quite irrelevant. Fast expansion into bunkers and turrets ? That clearly goes into turtling territory, and he would then probably go tanks to avoid getting shelled himself. Dedicating such a position to mostly produce viking is totally unorthodox and specifically aiming to block your build with a overrisky switch. Just ignore my post. ^^' | ||
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Ertu
Greece686 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:18 Alaric wrote: Yup, that's why I talked about making bunkers to fend off hellions, after a rather quick expand, but after re-reading my post I deem it quite irrelevant. Fast expansion into bunkers and turrets ? That clearly goes into turtling territory, and he would then probably go tanks to avoid getting shelled himself. Dedicating such a position to mostly produce viking is totally unorthodox and specifically aiming to block your build with a overrisky switch. Just ignore my post. ^^' Yep, that's better said than I said it - also remember that you need to defend 4 blue-flame hellions dropping, so you can't just hope your bunker saves you and then FE. On February 02 2011 11:18 Ertu wrote: I have been using mass-air with helions a lot during the last month with a 70% win rate on TvTs (2800 diamond Terran on EU),but I think that u have perfected it (I always opened with gas before rax and double helion,ur opening feels kinda safer). This build allows u total control of the map,and you can really get 3-4 expansions up really quickly(like a Zerg indeed) I'm gonna try it your way now, Please post one of your strategies on TvZ as well,as it has quickly become my worst match-up :S TvZ is my worst as well, hopefully I gain enlightenment into how to win this eventually  | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:54 Synystyr wrote: Echoic, this post is excellent, by far one the best answers to TvT out there. I've never ever thought of using the two starports the way you have here. Everything is so well laid out, especially the Lategame flowchart. Extremely impressed and can't wait to use this! Thank you very much for such an awesome contribution :D Yeah, iEchoic is some sort of Strategy Forum Bonjwa. | ||
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Justjealouse
United States36 Posts
#1 in halowars, and you could be #1 on starcraft if you had the time to grind as many matches as some of these other top 50's | ||
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Marksman
Malaysia523 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
. For quite a while I did use a somewhat similar air dominance TvT build without the hellions and I have to say its a lonnnnnng time to get BC's when a thor pops out on the field and you don't have a Fusion core yet. I like this idea alot but as I said, I would be pretty concerned about thors. Is it cost effective to kill thors with banshees if you magic box?Another pressing concern though is against fast cloak banshee. I think that a good fast cloak banshee can be at your base about 60seconds before your viking pops and well before a raven is out with cloak finishing before the viking pops. Seems like that could really mess you up, you imply that your hellions will be able to do more damage, but what if they block the ramp (i often use my idle factory and a bunker to do this when I banshee rush). Maybe against banshees delaying pre-ignite in favor of a faster starport might be worthwhile. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I wonder how the gas income flow with this though, and of course while your own starport is delayed a banshee rush with gas before rax would be in a lot earlier. I think it might be dangerous even while factoring in the travel time ? It's for 4am here so I'm not trying it now, but I'll definitely run some tests if the answer isn't given by tomorrow (not taking much risk here). | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Just to get an idea on timing here, gas before rax = 50gas headstart, then an extra factory and preignite puts you 300gas behind before you can start your starport, thats about 90seconds gametime. So assuming 30seconds travel time (generous start positions), that gives me about 40seconds before a viking can pop and if a medivac is build first instead, then probably 30more seconds on top of that (aka dead so there is no time for a medivac). Cloak will definitely be finishing up about the same time and you will need to have saved up 2 scans or you won't be able to kill the banshee with just 1 viking as the raven won't be out yet. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong here. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I wish I would have saved replays vs it, I practiced it with my teammates, and I don't save those games, sorry =/ You can run some tests and I think you'll see the same outcome. Just drop your hellions, run your SCVs until raven + viking gets out. If your timing is tight, the banshee won't have long before it's doomed to die. It does take some micro to manage your drop and keep a banshee off you, though. | ||
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Ruffy
Canada2 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
And vs marine tank, wouldn't it just be like TvZ as you said, with the Terran player countering your play by spreading his marines fast vs incoming hellions and running backwards while tanks get some shots off, then using marine DPS once somewhat spread to actually somewhat effectively fight the hellions? Fit in a Thor which crushes banshees, I'm just confused how you'd hold off a push to your natural, although obviously it must work if you say you've had such success with the build^. Also, when do you expand? I know it might vary, but generally? Just when it feels safe? Obviously you'd have to cut some production as I can't imagine supporting 2 rax 2 port. Lastly, I'm guessing this build is hard countered by 3rax? | ||
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affinity
United States266 Posts
I tried and loved your 1/1/2 TvP opening and can't wait to start practicing this build +_+ | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
Cool build nonetheless! | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On February 02 2011 13:07 Pokebunny wrote: This build is really neat, faced echoic doing it a few times on ladder. I have most success against it with pure marine tank - try to get a positional advantage (don't suicide marines) and let tanks hammer hellions as much as possible. If he doesn't have enough hellions or you have a good marine spread, it will fall in head on combat. Cool build nonetheless! That's good advice, and you've probably adapted to it better than anyone else I've played. It comes down to macro and micro from there, which I definitely failed at last time we played. | ||
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
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—I'm going to trust you on this one. I'm just sad that I barely run into TvTs (EU server at 2.3k diamond level), which is my favorite match-up because of all the diversity of openers and situations it encompasses.
