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Watched the replay of the marine-tank opening from Sixto, and have a few questions/comments.
in that engagement (9:40~) was your raven, 2 vikings, 5 hellions and banshee vs his 9 marines 3 tanks and viking. Seems like he chose not to spread out his tanks and seige up, and attempt to take your hellions out with them. 3 tanks could easily butcher 5 hellions, yet he chose to engage with his marines, and leave his tanks unseiged. Would you agree that seige mode (and perhaps proper positioning in general) could have let him take that fight?
Is it that important to get your 2nd hellion out at the exact same time as the first? because if it isin't, you could research the pre-igniter, swap to a reactor made by your barracks, pump hellions and use that 50 gas saved for a faster starport/banshee (perhaps use the 2 marines made at the start for the hellion drop? or even put SCVs with auto-repair inside the medivac to repair hellions).The comp is working well (it did its part when you had Sixto contained/seiged), but perhaps the build order itself could be improved upon for faster banshees (1 banshee to kill 3 tanks?). I'll run a couple sims, and post my results later..
Edit: has the usage of HSM been explored in this comp? I can see a couple HSMs knock out any clustered tanks/ force marines to run & expose tanks to banshee fire.
I can't wait to try this on ladder, I always hated using tanks and feeling immobile with terran.
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On February 02 2011 14:13 Prodigal wrote:
Watched the replay of the marine-tank opening from Sixto, and have a few questions/comments.
in that engagement (9:40~) was your raven, 2 vikings, 5 hellions and banshee vs his 9 marines 3 tanks and viking. Seems like he chose not to spread out his tanks and seige up, and attempt to take your hellions out with them. 3 tanks could easily butcher 5 hellions, yet he chose to engage with his marines, and leave his tanks unseiged. Would you agree that seige mode (and perhaps proper positioning in general) could have let him take that fight?
That's where controlling the xelnagas is so important - he has no choice. How would he have known to siege? I have vision of him coming. He would have to start sieging randomly across the map (slow) as he comes across the map while I prevent reinforcements and keep building up my army. The engagement happened in the middle of the map.
Also, keep in mind it doesn't matter if tanks kill the hellions - if you kill enough marines (which you will even if you suicide them), the banshees can clean the rest up.
Is it that important to get your 2nd hellion out at the exact same time as the first? because if it isin't, you could research the pre-igniter, swap to a reactor made by your barracks, pump hellions and use that 50 gas saved for a faster starport/banshee (perhaps use the 2 marines made at the start for the hellion drop? or even put SCVs with auto-repair inside the medivac to repair hellions).The comp is working well (it did its part when you had Sixto contained/seiged), but perhaps the build order itself could be improved upon for faster banshees (1 banshee to kill 3 tanks?). I'll run a couple sims, and post my results later..
I can't wait to try this on ladder, I always hated using tanks and feeling immobile with terran.
You don't actually have enough minerals to pump out 3x hellions at that point in the game, which is why I don't make an immediate reactor. Good questions.
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Cool build.
How does it fare against someone who protects their mineral line(s) with buildings, making it fairly hard for hellions to do a lot of damage quickly? By the time a blue-flame hellion drop, I can pretty much have my whole mineral line protected.
If I see your 2fact and don't see any tanks I can safely assume a blue-flame hellion drop. How does this do against a straight Marauder/Viking build?
Also, what stops the player from doing his own hellion harass against you? He doesn't necessarily need to drop because you're so air heavy its easier to run hellions into your base.
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I've used this build, it's all right as a switch to the way you normally play, whatever way that is, as it'll catch someone off guard and they won't know wtf to do, or how to react.
I copied it from playing "maker" though on NA server, whoever that is. He just literally massed hellions, banshees, and a couple of marines here and there.
I don't think it is an optimal build to do though. And standard marine/tank/medivac with upgrades will just straight out beat it with solid play imo.
Fast upgraded mech with thors also stops this unit composition shinigansof all banshee/hellions/vikings pretty cold.
It's a pretty good harrass build though if you play it right, as you have the hellion run-by threats + drop threat + banshee threat. But yah...not many people knew about the build...now they will lol.
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On February 02 2011 15:53 avilo wrote:
I copied it from playing "maker" though on NA server, whoever that is. He just literally massed hellions, banshees, and a couple of marines here and there.
I don't think it is an optimal build to do though. And standard marine/tank/medivac with upgrades will just straight out beat it with solid play imo.
Heh, I played maker with it, almost posted the replay of it but didn't. Kind of like a game of telephone but with starcraft builds instead of sentences.
I've played a lot of good terrans and played vs a lot of marine/tank/medivac and still win a great majority of games. So I'd just have to disagree on the other part.
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As you say, it's a bit reminiscent of Muta-Ling-Banes. I've got to try it out. Battlecruisers defended by a mass of vikings and a backed by hellions reminds me of my Brood Lord-Corruptor-Crackling 4v4 zerg build (which is super-baller-gosu, might I add)
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It seems a little allin considering the cost of 4 production buildings.
You should try opening with a regular blue flame hellion drop expanding then adding on another factory and a starport. This means you could add on another factory and starport with the extra gas and minerals.
Edit: Nvm i saw the replays and saw a cc go down at 43ish, terran is an amazing race to afford 2factories and 2starports on one base and still get the funds to expand even though they dont use a mule every 50 energy. Very impressive man :D
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I watched all 3 replays, and I think this build has alot to do with two things.
A) Your opponent doesn't scout, and have almost no units. And when they did have units they threw them away.
B) Their mistakes aloud you to win, and none of them went tank/viking. Any traditional 1,1,1 build would destroy this. Do you have any closer replays? or replays where you lose?
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It sounds interesting. But early Thors for you opponent are much more viable then early BCs for you. And... you don't really have anything against those.
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How well do upgrades play a part in this build? It seemed to me from the replays you float a good bit of resources, could you not just dump it into 1-2 armories?
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I feel like this has a really hard time killing buildings.
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mad props to you iechoic for sharing so much with the community!
TvT is by far my worst match-up, everytime i search for a 1v1 game i'm hoping my opponent isn't terran :|
going to watch the replays right now.
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On February 02 2011 16:23 Arkless wrote:
Any traditional 1,1,1 build would destroy this.
Both Baz and Poke went 1/1/1, watch the replays in the replay pack.
On February 02 2011 16:25 Duldonkulus wrote:
How well do upgrades play a part in this build? It seemed to me from the replays you float a good bit of resources, could you not just dump it into 1-2 armories?
Yeah, I would like to get more upgrades, and have been trying to work that in more.
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On February 02 2011 11:18 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote:
That makes no sense... How would they 'outproduce' you in vikings? You have 2ports so you could do the same thing. Also they'd lose a ton of their scvs to a hellion drop unless they built tanks or a bunch of marauders, so they'd have to match your gas cost there. The best they could do is match you in vikings. Also you can't produce 4x viking off one base. Yup, that's why I talked about making bunkers to fend off hellions, after a rather quick expand, but after re-reading my post I deem it quite irrelevant. Fast expansion into bunkers and turrets ? That clearly goes into turtling territory, and he would then probably go tanks to avoid getting shelled himself. Dedicating such a position to mostly produce viking is totally unorthodox and specifically aiming to block your build with a overrisky switch. Just ignore my post. ^^'
I know this is off topic but when I saw this post I had to comment.
Alaric (is that a HoMM 5 reference?) is what we call fucking awesome because he is admitting that he was wrong, thank you good sir for doing so.
But anyway this is a good build from what I can tell.
People are rasing the question of a marauder thor army. Well it can be fairly easily scouted (Hmm... alot of techlab rax and facts with an armory) and theoretically killable. PDD (which also works on turrets so you can slip in a viking) will block marauder and thor shots allowing the Banshees to kill the thor and then slaughter the marauders quickly.
But on that note if the rauder/thor player uses the rauders to focus down one of his own troops will that still be blocked PDD?
Also people are talking about the opponent siezing air control. Well read the quote I think it says it all.
EDIT: Thank you for sharing this awesome build iEchoic.
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^^^
Good point on the PDD, there exists one scary point which is when he starts thors and you start BCs as a response, and his thor can attack before you get BCs if you scout late. I wonder if a raven or two would be a better response and then transition into BCs, as you could drop it, block the volleys, and focus it down.
Something like immediately start a fusion core and a raven as soon as you see an armory or a thor, and the raven is a transitioning unit into BCs to help kill the intitial thor or two. Thanks for the idea, that's really elegant.
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On February 02 2011 09:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
PS. Also, why does ThisIsJimmy appear so often on the losing side of replays? I feel bad for him sometimes. :-\
He probably doesn't upload a lot himself, but the people who beat him do, that's why he seems to lose a lot? IdrA had the same thing, only getting uploaded when he engages IdrARage!!
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Seems neat.
How often does it get to the point where you get BCs out to combat thors?
I could see this beating heavy bio play easily, as well as standard tank/viking. But what if a tank/viking player switches to thor/viking instead (shouldnt be hard, he should have the correct buildings for it out already...)? Thor/viking is pretty much anti any kind of air build and trying to beat that with air just seems suicide. And it seems much easier for him to get the 2-4 thors needed to combat viking/banshee than it seems for you to get the tech labs and fusion core + the BCs built (BC build time is  ) to actually counter his thors. But even with BCs out, viking/thors should do a good job vs viking/BC because it should be pretty much impossible to keep viking superiority vs thor/viking.
Or do you often win before they get the chance to switch to proper unit comps (that is, they are dependant on scouting your build and countering it early or they'll lose)?
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If you want to become comfortable with the build order but don't want to just practice against a computer, try random 3's/4's - it's really effective in team games because of your map control and it's amazingly fun!
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Wow this build is cool. Seems like this would really push your ability to multitask.
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EPT
