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On February 02 2011 09:39 vnlegend wrote:
Theoretically this sounds nice but it seems like everything is dependent on the hellions which die easily. In TvZ the banelings' job is to blow up all the marines so the mutas can clean up everything. Terrans adjust to this by having more tanks/a few thor and less marines.
I believe this strat can be countered by adding 1-2 thors to any normal army composition. With scans, or a raven, a solid ground-based army can probably bust you before you can get to BCs. Although most people don't get Thors, unless meching, and thinking of it might end up being too late.
Watch the replays from the replay pack, people go thors. This isn't a theoretical build, I've been using it for a month, lol.
The only time I lose to thors is if I scout very late and get caught off-guard (so I don't get BCs in time). Thors are countered very hard by BCs, and you'll see that in the game vs Perplexity, which goes into a very late-game scenario where mass thors just don't cut it.
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you would find a fun way to play TvT iEchoic, little rascal
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On February 02 2011 09:39 vnlegend wrote:
Theoretically this sounds nice but it seems like everything is dependent on the hellions which die easily. In TvZ the banelings' job is to blow up all the marines so the mutas can clean up everything. Terrans adjust to this by having more tanks/a few thor and less marines.
I believe this strat can be countered by adding 1-2 thors to any normal army composition. With scans, or a raven, a solid ground-based army can probably bust you before you can get to BCs. Although most people don't get Thors, unless meching, and thinking of it might end up being too late.
The problem is that the first wave of hellions comes too early to be countered all that well except maybe by walling off. If you know the timings, you can probably wait for their attack to do yours so their units are out of position or just run past.(Drewbie) You don't have to kill the other Terran. You can keep him behind in Expos using your map control and your (more) mobile force.(Jimmy) And if Terran turtles hard and goes for a larger death push, you counter that by with your superior economy and hopefully BC production.
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Sounds very interesting. Your TvP strat has worked very well for me so you have my confidence. One question -- if they rush with marauders early, will the banshees get out in time to counter? Not sure how blue flame hellions would perform against marauder heavy compositions.
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On February 02 2011 09:39 vnlegend wrote:
Theoretically this sounds nice but it seems like everything is dependent on the hellions which die easily. In TvZ the banelings' job is to blow up all the marines so the mutas can clean up everything. Terrans adjust to this by having more tanks/a few thor and less marines.
I believe this strat can be countered by adding 1-2 thors to any normal army composition. With scans, or a raven, a solid ground-based army can probably bust you before you can get to BCs. Although most people don't get Thors, unless meching, and thinking of it might end up being too late.
Well you could "Magic Box" your Banshees. Makes Thors Useless.
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On February 02 2011 09:47 Melix wrote:
Sounds very interesting. Your TvP strat has worked very well for me so you have my confidence. One question -- if they rush with marauders early, will the banshees get out in time to counter? Not sure how blue flame hellions would perform against marauder heavy compositions.
I don't run into this that often, but I did play two games against HasHe (I didn't post the replays because he's a teammate, but anyone watching his stream may have seen it) where he opened marauders. The banshee does come out in time for a stim marauder push.
If they try to attack earlier than that, you can just run in or drop their base with your hellions after they leave and kill all their scvs.
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you said you dont get turrets, but what do you do if they have more than 1 cloaked banshee?
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Wouldn't this type of strategy work in all matchups? Have you experimented with it outside of TvT?
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On February 02 2011 09:33 Fruscainte wrote:
I'm assuming if they go mass tank with marines in bunkers and missile turrets (slow pushing, basically) you should try your hardest to harass their base with Hellions? What if, just for arguments sake though, they got a way to many amount of marines in their base or something in bunkers around their mineral lines with missile turrets, and said push is coming. It may not be economically viable for them, but with this build what would I do?
If they dedicate that many resources to guarding mineral lines with bunkers and lots of turrets, they have a small army and are turtling. This will be easily recognizable upon multiple pokes into the base, which means your map control is even stronger. Go ahead and take more bases as you see more and more static-like defense go up (tanks being sieged up in the main with 5-6 turrets + bunkers, ect).
Islands would seem like free expansions to me with such a command over airspace on a map like Lost Temple.
And I know the question will come up of breaking the lines late game, and the answer is to just do the badass thing and get Yamato. That's right baby, bring out the big guns 
I do like the fact that this build is very focused and smooth. Mineral dumps into hellions go hand in hand with the harass-based play, yet still have a big roll of cutting down on the infantry. It is much like the banelings to the marines, but more cost effective (no gas needed after the initial deployment).
I just switched over to terran from toss, and I am liking the Sky Terran a lot so far. This is a cool game focus to go by. Thanks for sharing, and hope to see it get some more love.
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On February 02 2011 10:01 Seagull_ wrote:
Wouldn't this type of strategy work in all matchups? Have you experimented with it outside of TvT?
Unfortunately there's nothing to kill mutas or stalkers with in this build, considering they can have way more stalkers than you have banshees. I think blink stalkers would destroy it, and you can shut down hellions with 2 spines + keeping slings under any dropships.
It may have a novelty/cheesy usage in TvZ but I don't see it being usable in a standard fashion.
You may be able to play around and make some modifications to get around this, however. You can try it out and report back, I haven't actually tried at all.
On February 02 2011 09:59 QQmonster wrote:
you said you dont get turrets, but what do you do if they have more than 1 cloaked banshee?
On one base you don't need more than 1 raven, and if they have multiple latergame when you have multiple bases, I'd rather just kill one at a time and run my scvs at the other base or make another raven. I'd much rather them spend their gas on cloaked banshees than thors or marine upgrades, honestly. Ravens are good vs thors and vikings, which will benefit you down the road.
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I have had extreme succes against all openings with your hellion drop into 2 port banshee against protoss.
I will definitly give this a shot as well. Thanks so much!
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Just watched the Deathrow replay. He both walls off with a bunker, and also tries to hide the two starports in the corner of the base. Do you think either of those is necessary?
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Seems like marauders and mass vikings(from 2 reactored ports) should hard counter this, although thats just theory crafting, have you come up against marauder viking using this build?
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On February 02 2011 10:36 Melix wrote:
Just watched the Deathrow replay. He both walls off with a bunker, and also tries to hide the two starports in the corner of the base. Do you think either of those is necessary?
I don't think so, I've been safe against all openings without the bunker, and the bunker makes me have 1 less hellion. He does the build differently, which is why I put it last. That's his style, though.
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I have acually seen this strategy used really well in a stream with trump that I was watching, never tried but I loved the idea of it, im not very good at controlling two seperate hotkeys of units (still praticeing) but I still think Ill geive it ashot, thank you iechoic very infomative and helpufl =D
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Considering how much success I've had with your 1-1-2 so far—even though I'm not that used to 3+ bases macro or lategame TvP because of its efficiency  —I'm going to trust you on this one. I'm just sad that I barely run into TvTs (EU server at 2.3k diamond level), which is my favorite match-up because of all the diversity of openers and situations it encompasses.
Edit: Ignore this part (and also the former since it's only thanks to op ), messy talk about a turtling opponent.
Your opener is based on the ability to out-produce vikings if needed, for example against a reactored-starport. But what if your opponent plays defensive (notably bunkers against hellion harass) and go for a rather quick expansion and more starports ? I recon banshee harass is advised to force him to get detection, but since gas seems to be the limiting factor in both these kind of builds, he should have leftover minerals to build turrets and concentrate on vikings.
I guess expanding yourself to make up for his lack of aggression, and taking a quick 3rd (and its gases) when he opts for a defensive posture is the obvious response ?
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I just watched the replay of you vs. ThisisJimmy, and it seems to me like you barely won a lot of those battles even though he didn't micro to spread his marines at all. Although you won the game, I'm not convinced that this wins against standard MMM play if the opponent knows it's coming and has good drop defense, especially if he mixes in a thor or two.
It seems really strong for harass though, and you probably crush anyone with less multitask than you. I'd love to get a chance to play against this.
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what do you do against early proxy rax ramp buster builds?
what do you do when the opponent doesn't lose all his scv's to your harrass and competes with you for air dominance? it seems like your build relies on the banshees to support the hellions to actually kill stuff on the ground, so if you dedicate all your production to vikings it seems to me that your ground army would be severely lacking.
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On February 02 2011 11:01 Tianx wrote:
I just watched the replay of you vs. ThisisJimmy, and it seems to me like you barely won a lot of those battles even though he didn't micro to spread his marines at all. Although you won the game, I'm not convinced that this wins against standard MMM play if the opponent knows it's coming and has good drop defense, especially if he mixes in a thor or two.
Yeah, but I was also floating a ton of minerals/gas.
Spreading marines doesn't work against ranged units. It only works vs banelings because they have to run up to you, so all your marines get to fire. If you split vs my hellions then none of your marines would be attacking my actual banshees, the ones behind the front line would just be standing there doing nothing.
On February 02 2011 11:02 QQmonster wrote:
what do you do against early proxy rax ramp buster builds?
what do you do when the opponent doesn't lose all his scv's to your harrass and competes with you for air dominance? it seems like your build relies on the banshees to support the hellions to actually kill stuff on the ground, so if you dedicate all your production to vikings it seems to me that your ground army would be severely lacking.
There are a few replays where the hellions do very little, check them out. Competing with me for air dominance is pointless, there's no reason they should be able to make more vikings than me unless they do 2port as well, which is unstandard and pointless vs everything else.
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On February 02 2011 11:00 Alaric wrote:Considering how much success I've had with your 1-1-2 so far—even though I'm not that used to 3+ bases macro or lategame TvP because of its efficiency —I'm going to trust you on this one. I'm just sad that I barely run into TvTs (EU server at 2.3k diamond level), which is my favorite match-up because of all the diversity of openers and situations it encompasses. Your opener is based on the ability to out-produce vikings if needed, for example against a reactored-starport. But what if your opponent plays defensive (notably bunkers against hellion harass) and go for a rather quick expansion and more starports ? I recon banshee harass is advised to force him to get detection, but since gas seems to be the limiting factor in both these kind of builds, he should have leftover minerals to build turrets and concentrate on vikings. I guess expanding yourself to make up for his lack of aggression, and taking a quick 3rd (and its gases) when he opts for a defensive posture is the obvious response ?
I agree. It seems viking dominance is the crutch the entire build relies on. I'd like to see a replay where the other terran scans 2port and builds 2 reactored ports and outproduces vikings. If air dominance is lost its basically game over as your entire ground hellion army will be eaten by 3 maruaders or a tank.
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EPT
