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On July 19 2012 21:06 EpidemicSC wrote:Show nested quote +Question
In a ZvZ matchup, if I do a 15 pool 16 hatch and my opponent goes hatch first, am I forced to stomach his economic lead and continue macroing, or are there viable ideas to punish his build order? Opening 15 pool 16 hatch is in my opinion the safest and most economic way to open in ZvZ. The economic disadvantage when compared to the hatch first is miniscule as you get out a queen faster = more larvae = more drones  ! Hope that helps.
Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for the reply.
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Just a quick question for zerg players. When creep spreading you often see huge waves of all of the active tumors spreading. Do you think that it would be better to leave a live/active? tumor or two on each "level" of creep in order to have easier respreading of creep once the opponent inevitably takes out the front line of tumors.
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On July 20 2012 10:32 jay.li wrote:
Just a quick question for zerg players. When creep spreading you often see huge waves of all of the active tumors spreading. Do you think that it would be better to leave a live/active? tumor or two on each "level" of creep in order to have easier respreading of creep once the opponent inevitably takes out the front line of tumors.
This is actually not a terrible idea, although not game changing. You should have an extra queen milling about anyways so respreading the creep wont be a problem. The benefit of spreading multiple tumors at once is the speed at which they spread creep, but an argument can be made that there is little difference between 5 and 6 tumors. I think that for alot of players (myself included) it is easier to just double click the active tumors and spam out the spawn tumor command.
Good idea, i just dont think it would be worth the APM and thought to constantly just leave 1 tumor behind per level, perhaps on the tip top levels of play it would be useful. I, however, think queen drops will be the future of zerg creep spread once people have the APM for it .
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On July 20 2012 13:10 EpidemicSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 10:32 jay.li wrote:
Just a quick question for zerg players. When creep spreading you often see huge waves of all of the active tumors spreading. Do you think that it would be better to leave a live/active? tumor or two on each "level" of creep in order to have easier respreading of creep once the opponent inevitably takes out the front line of tumors. This is actually not a terrible idea, although not game changing. You should have an extra queen milling about anyways so respreading the creep wont be a problem. The benefit of spreading multiple tumors at once is the speed at which they spread creep, but an argument can be made that there is little difference between 5 and 6 tumors. I think that for alot of players (myself included) it is easier to just double click the active tumors and spam out the spawn tumor command. Good idea, i just dont think it would be worth the APM and thought to constantly just leave 1 tumor behind per level, perhaps on the tip top levels of play it would be useful. I, however, think queen drops will be the future of zerg creep spread once people have the APM for it .
Every creep tumor is an investment of energy, I'm not sure it's worth just having them laying around doing nothing, especially since when you respread your creep, you'll want to have multiple tumors spreading it if possible for the same reason you wanted them in the first place.
One thing I've thought might be worthwhile, though, is to backtrack with the active tumors once the creep has spread as far as it's reasonable to get it. Once you've creeped up most of the map and you can't expect to spread it any more, you could spawn tumors backwards from the edge two or three times so that the active tumors aren't destroyed when the enemy comes out to clean up creep.
There is no difference at all between 5 and 6 tumors, though. 3 tumors spreads creep to its maximum radius before they can spawn the next generation, and 2 is already quite close. The only reason you'd want more is so that you can branch off in a different direction with a cluster at some point.
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Does anybody know the MMR cut-off scores for the different leagues?
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Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues.
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On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues.
Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball.
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On July 20 2012 21:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues. Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball.
I saw a post from some TL admin that looked like this, don't remember who though:
SC2 Rank :: ICCUP Rank
Bronze - Masters : D- / D+
Masters - GM : C- / A+
I kid you not. I guess this can be spoken for from personal experience too since I was a noobie D player in Brood War but now am top Masters? It really is true when they say SC2 is an easier game despite being different.
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On July 20 2012 21:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues. Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball.
Educated guess? Don't need science-like accuracy, just a vague general idea.
On July 20 2012 21:12 GenesisX wrote:
I kid you not. I guess this can be spoken for from personal experience too since I was a noobie D player in Brood War but now am top Masters? It really is true when they say SC2 is an easier game despite being different.
According to what I've heard or read recently (don't remember if it was a pro interview or Day9 or something else), SC2 is more of clear counter thing, I'd say rock-paper-scissors, as opposed to how in BW build orders and unit compositions supposedly didn't matter as much as they do in SC2, whereas individual skill with mechanics mattered much more due to the interface. I can't really say because I have 0 experience with SC1 ladder, I was a WC2 and WC3 guy.
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On July 20 2012 21:22 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues. Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball. Educated guess? Don't need science-like accuracy, just a vague general idea.
What do you mean by "equivalent"? Same skill at the game? Same percentage of active population? Something else?
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Can you put broodlings inside a nydus worm to attack with them on another location?
Will the timer decrease inside the worm ?
Why aren't zergs making hatchs everywhere when they have an excess amount of minerals ? It can be useful for larvaes before you decide to mine there and if you want to take the base later on, you'll already have an hatch up.
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On July 20 2012 17:04 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 13:10 EpidemicSC wrote:On July 20 2012 10:32 jay.li wrote:
Just a quick question for zerg players. When creep spreading you often see huge waves of all of the active tumors spreading. Do you think that it would be better to leave a live/active? tumor or two on each "level" of creep in order to have easier respreading of creep once the opponent inevitably takes out the front line of tumors. This is actually not a terrible idea, although not game changing. You should have an extra queen milling about anyways so respreading the creep wont be a problem. The benefit of spreading multiple tumors at once is the speed at which they spread creep, but an argument can be made that there is little difference between 5 and 6 tumors. I think that for alot of players (myself included) it is easier to just double click the active tumors and spam out the spawn tumor command. Good idea, i just dont think it would be worth the APM and thought to constantly just leave 1 tumor behind per level, perhaps on the tip top levels of play it would be useful. I, however, think queen drops will be the future of zerg creep spread once people have the APM for it . Every creep tumor is an investment of energy, I'm not sure it's worth just having them laying around doing nothing, especially since when you respread your creep, you'll want to have multiple tumors spreading it if possible for the same reason you wanted them in the first place. One thing I've thought might be worthwhile, though, is to backtrack with the active tumors once the creep has spread as far as it's reasonable to get it. Once you've creeped up most of the map and you can't expect to spread it any more, you could spawn tumors backwards from the edge two or three times so that the active tumors aren't destroyed when the enemy comes out to clean up creep. There is no difference at all between 5 and 6 tumors, though. 3 tumors spreads creep to its maximum radius before they can spawn the next generation, and 2 is already quite close. The only reason you'd want more is so that you can branch off in a different direction with a cluster at some point.
Yeah I think having 10 going in the same direction is a bit excessive, and they don't actually take long enough to kill to justify having a huge amount of tumors going along the same place in order to waste more scans or even a significant amount of energy. As for APM, I feel like it would just be a matter of realizing how many active tumors you have selected, and just clicking one less than that when making new tumors.
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On July 20 2012 21:38 Nyarly wrote:
Can you put broodlings inside a nydus worm to attack with them on another location?
Will the timer decrease inside the worm ?
Why aren't zergs making hatchs everywhere when they have an excess amount of minerals ? It can be useful for larvaes before you decide to mine there and if you want to take the base later on, you'll already have an hatch up.
Spreading yourself out without getting an advantage from it is like asking the opponent if he wants 300 miners.
You only need 2 macrohatches MAX regardless.
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On July 20 2012 21:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:22 NewbieOne wrote:On July 20 2012 21:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues. Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball. Educated guess? Don't need science-like accuracy, just a vague general idea. What do you mean by "equivalent"? Same skill at the game? Same percentage of active population? Something else?
Equivalent was too big a word. 'Roughly similar' would be more like it (with the understanding this is guesswork and could be wrong by a league or two).
I mean part skill/potential part track record, a blend of all of it, all together a rough estimate of where the player stands. Right now it takes level 8 to get to top 1000 in TFT because there are so few players (but I also imagine level 8 now is much harder than it was back then), back when there were more people top 1000 started about level 1000, that was about level 28, maybe 27. Level 25 was a defining point in TFT's version of MMR (your hidden 'effective/expected ladder level'), by default the game didn't expect you to get any higher than that, things got very steep from that point. Around level 30 were the gosus from the local tournament scenes. Grubby could supposedly beat a level 50 with his one hand while talking to an interviewer at the same time but it was max level and rarely seen. For comparison, level 10 (a player had to be dense or play once a month to avoid getting there) was the point when two things happened: 1) you began to lose XP for inactivity (which grew with level), 2) the game started to care enough about you to grant you your own player statistics page. Teen levels were very respectable. Twenties took a lot of work and were rare to see, normal players generally feared you, while you could theoretically owe it to longevity and luck as long as you avoided conclusively convincing the game that you sucked. To get to thirties, you almost definitely needed to play a lot, practice, be very active, follow the scene, watch reps, know the game very well and do the maths in your head, have a huge APM and excellent micro or you wouldn't have been able to keep up or even get there (not untrue for mid twenties but not so extreme). So I guess mid-high twenties (the ranked ladder, the top 1000 of a server, started at 27/28) were the gosu line where you needed to get really serious about it but somebody who had had any brush with WCG, even eliminations, could easily beat you like 10:0 or 10:1 and should himself be about level 33-35 (and likewise owned 10:0 by anybody who made a bit of a name in tournaments, who should be about 40, something like 43 for coaches, big-time veterans and all-round scary people), but then again getting out of level 25 was also a huge step because it was damn hard in some part also due to how the ladder was designed to keep you there (although I suppose any kid with sufficient free time could get there with some dedication). What SC2 league does this sound like? Low diamond? Plat?
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On July 20 2012 21:38 Nyarly wrote:
Can you put broodlings inside a nydus worm to attack with them on another location?
Will the timer decrease inside the worm ?
You can't put any temporary unit inside any transport, so no unfortunately. This includes anything affected by Neural Parasite.
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On July 20 2012 22:05 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 20 2012 21:22 NewbieOne wrote:On July 20 2012 21:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 20 2012 20:57 NewbieOne wrote:
Regardless how stupid this question sounds, which league on SC2 ladder should be more or less equivalent to ~25 level (or upper twenties) in the TFT ladder? This is not a situational question (angles, factors etc.), just a rough arbitrary approximation like when ICCUP grades from SC1 are compared to SC2 leagues. Not a simple question with a simple answer. There is also no "rough arbitrary approximation" of how the ICCUP grades map to SC2 ladder ranks. The simple reason is that the TFT ladder measured skill at TFT, ICCUP measures skill at BW, and the SC2 ladder measures skill at SC2. It's like asking how many medals you have to win in boxing to be as good at Olympic boxing as Michael Jordan was at basketball. Educated guess? Don't need science-like accuracy, just a vague general idea. What do you mean by "equivalent"? Same skill at the game? Same percentage of active population? Something else? Equivalent was too big a word. 'Roughly similar' would be more like it (with the understanding this is guesswork and could be wrong by a league or two). I mean part skill/potential part track record, a blend of all of it, all together a rough estimate of where the player stands. Right now it takes level 8 to get to top 1000 in TFT because there are so few players (but I also imagine level 8 now is much harder than it was back then), back when there were more people top 1000 started about level 1000, that was about level 28, maybe 27. Level 25 was a defining point in TFT's version of MMR (your hidden 'effective/expected ladder level'), by default the game didn't expect you to get any higher than that, things got very steep from that point. Around level 30 were the gosus from the local tournament scenes. Grubby could supposedly beat a level 50 with his one hand while talking to an interviewer at the same time but it was max level and rarely seen. For comparison, level 10 (a player had to be dense or play once a month to avoid getting there) was the point when two things happened: 1) you began to lose XP for inactivity (which grew with level), 2) the game started to care enough about you to grant you your own player statistics page. Teen levels were very respectable. Twenties took a lot of work and were rare to see, normal players generally feared you, while you could theoretically owe it to longevity and luck as long as you avoided conclusively convincing the game that you sucked. To get to thirties, you almost definitely needed to play a lot, practice, be very active, follow the scene, watch reps, know the game very well and do the maths in your head, have a huge APM and excellent micro or you wouldn't have been able to keep up or even get there (not untrue for mid twenties but not so extreme). So I guess mid-high twenties (the ranked ladder, the top 1000 of a server, started at 27/28) were the gosu line where you needed to get really serious about it but somebody who had had any brush with WCG, even eliminations, could easily beat you like 10:0 or 10:1 and should himself be about level 33-35 (and likewise owned 10:0 by anybody who made a bit of a name in tournaments, who should be about 40, something like 43 for coaches, big-time veterans and all-round scary people), but then again getting out of level 25 was also a huge step because it was damn hard in some part also due to how the ladder was designed to keep you there (although I suppose any kid with sufficient free time could get there with some dedication). What SC2 league does this sound like? Low diamond? Plat?
The amount of additional information you have to give to contextualize what a level means should be enough to tell you how hard it is to give a good answer. For example, you'd have to tell us what year you're talking about; it sounds like right now, level 8 would be equivalent to master league, whereas when I played I was level 16 and I was awful.
Based on the description "any kid with sufficient free time could get there with some dedication", I'd say that's high diamond/low master. Able to own such players and make it into tournaments but not win them is high master/low GM. WC3 Grubby-level play has no real benchmark on the SC2 ladder, at that point you're describing players who are above the effective ladder skill ceiling, and you measure their skill in terms of tournament results instead of ladder rank.
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On July 20 2012 21:54 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:38 Nyarly wrote:
Can you put broodlings inside a nydus worm to attack with them on another location?
Will the timer decrease inside the worm ?
Why aren't zergs making hatchs everywhere when they have an excess amount of minerals ? It can be useful for larvaes before you decide to mine there and if you want to take the base later on, you'll already have an hatch up. Spreading yourself out without getting an advantage from it is like asking the opponent if he wants 300 miners. You only need 2 macrohatches MAX regardless.
Thank you and Iyerbeth.
About the hatches, your opponent has to scout them and you can decide to defend them too. I agree that it might get sniped easily but i was talking about when you have an excess amount of mineral, when 300 minerals lost isn't that much of a big deal, like when you have 1.5 in the bank and you're maxed out.
Or are zergs really mineral dependant throughout the whole game ?
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On July 20 2012 22:14 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
The amount of additional information you have to give to contextualize what a level means should be enough to tell you how hard it is to give a good answer. For example, you'd have to tell us what year you're talking about; it sounds like right now, level 8 would be equivalent to master league, whereas when I played I was level 16 and I was awful.
Sorry for the clumsiness on my part. All the more so kudos for bearing with it for me. The peak years I was talking about culminated around late 2007 (and things may've been easier back in 2005-2006). I should probably be able to form an idea on my own but I don't have a good understanding of SC2 or the scene yet.
Based on the description "any kid with sufficient free time could get there with some dedication", I'd say that's high diamond/low master. Able to own such players and make it into tournaments but not win them is high master/low GM. WC3 Grubby-level play has no real benchmark on the SC2 ladder, at that point you're describing players who are above the effective ladder skill ceiling, and you measure their skill in terms of tournament results instead of ladder rank.
Thanks.
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Hi. I see that many players send half of their workers to expansion but others set rally point at exp and sending workers there from two buldings. What is better and more cost effectiv?
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EPT
