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On April 04 2012 01:12 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 01:08 CookieMaker wrote:On April 03 2012 23:47 Iyerbeth wrote:On April 03 2012 23:42 Abusion wrote:
if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over? 24 is actually oversaturated. On 8 patches, 2 on each would be 16 and then for absolute maximum you only need one more for each distant patch (so really not more than 20 or 21). Typically you'd stop at 16 though because the third drone on far patches gives less income than the others. As to your question, a resource not often talked about is time, so if you have the mineral income to do so you should absolutely spend the time producing some extra Probes as your third base is building up. There are times when you will intentionally be cutting Probes for a timing or something, but that not being the case you want to get your economy as strong as possible, as fast as possible. The sooner you have saturated your third, the faster it can pay for itself, and the less risk you're taking. Actually, Saturated does = 24 by the definition of the word. This means that adding more harvesters yields no gain However, "Optimal" = 16.... What this means is that each worker up to 16 will yield the the FULL benefit of adding 1 worker. Any workers added between 16-24 will only "Marginally" increase your income rate. I'll find the full thread on this, then report back  EDIT: Thanks Sheth! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219257And the answer is yes and no to the original question.... Are you planning a 2base timing push? then yes, stop making probes. Do you plan on taking your third soon? Is it already building? Then yes, keep making probes! Edit: Hmmm I would argue that Sheth was actually wrong in saying 24 is the upper limit, but I'd need to do more research as per the reasoning in this post as it was originally: Hey, I did use the right term!  24 is over saturated as close mineral patches gain no benefit at all from a third Drone, and so you'd only at most for full saturation need 1 more for each distant patch, which is to say 20 or 21, depending on how many close patches. Which is what I said. But yeah, we're basically agreeing so far as I can tell. 
Barrin posted some data on mineral collection rates that directly address this in the Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 thread.
Barrin wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UGkXZ.jpg)
Adding a 3rd worker per patch, even the near ones, increases mineral collection rate. Full saturation then requires, at minimum, 3 workers per patch -- 24. CookieMaker has this correct: 16 workers gives the most return on a per worker basis, but going up to 24 gives you the highest possible total income on one base.
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On April 04 2012 02:16 KotB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 01:12 Iyerbeth wrote:On April 04 2012 01:08 CookieMaker wrote:On April 03 2012 23:47 Iyerbeth wrote:On April 03 2012 23:42 Abusion wrote:
if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over? 24 is actually oversaturated. On 8 patches, 2 on each would be 16 and then for absolute maximum you only need one more for each distant patch (so really not more than 20 or 21). Typically you'd stop at 16 though because the third drone on far patches gives less income than the others. As to your question, a resource not often talked about is time, so if you have the mineral income to do so you should absolutely spend the time producing some extra Probes as your third base is building up. There are times when you will intentionally be cutting Probes for a timing or something, but that not being the case you want to get your economy as strong as possible, as fast as possible. The sooner you have saturated your third, the faster it can pay for itself, and the less risk you're taking. Actually, Saturated does = 24 by the definition of the word. This means that adding more harvesters yields no gain However, "Optimal" = 16.... What this means is that each worker up to 16 will yield the the FULL benefit of adding 1 worker. Any workers added between 16-24 will only "Marginally" increase your income rate. I'll find the full thread on this, then report back EDIT: Thanks Sheth! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219257And the answer is yes and no to the original question.... Are you planning a 2base timing push? then yes, stop making probes. Do you plan on taking your third soon? Is it already building? Then yes, keep making probes! Edit: Hmmm I would argue that Sheth was actually wrong in saying 24 is the upper limit, but I'd need to do more research as per the reasoning in this post as it was originally: Hey, I did use the right term! 24 is over saturated as close mineral patches gain no benefit at all from a third Drone, and so you'd only at most for full saturation need 1 more for each distant patch, which is to say 20 or 21, depending on how many close patches. Which is what I said. But yeah, we're basically agreeing so far as I can tell. Barrin posted some data on mineral collection rates that directly address this in the Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 thread. Adding a 3rd worker per patch, even the near ones, increases mineral collection rate. Full saturation then requires, at minimum, 3 workers per patch -- 24. CookieMaker has this correct: 16 workers gives the most return on a per worker basis, but going up to 24 gives you the highest possible total income on one base.
Thank you. Happy to be corrected.
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In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
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I heard from some guy that Hydras were getting a speed upgrade in Heart of the swarm. BUT after watching a unit and upgrade overview i didnt see anything about hydra speed. Does anyone know if as of now there is a hydra change on the table as of now?
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Any tips for learning to use location hotkeys? I suck at them and I think it might improve my gameplay
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On April 04 2012 03:36 crocodile wrote:
In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
Whether he expands ????
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What are the current popular Protoss builds at the moment per matchup?
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On April 04 2012 03:36 crocodile wrote:
In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
nothing really. Saves 100 minerals. gets stalker out a little faster. Lets say you open 12 rax 13 gas, what's the significance of skipping the first marine and going straight for a marauder first? not much.
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On April 04 2012 03:36 crocodile wrote:
In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
It just indicates that we think we can get away with it. The first Zealot is used with the first Stalker (and often a Probe) to poke your front in a lot of builds, and it's necessary to defend some very early timings from the Terran, not building it is just a little bit greedy and means that whatever we were planning to do is going to come a tiny bit faster. Alternatively, if you were building two rax, it means you're probably going to get to so some damage early on, but it doesn't really telegraph much about the build that's going to follow.
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In TvZ, what are some tells I can look for to see if he is going for a fast roach push?
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On April 04 2012 16:37 ricecake wrote:
In TvZ, what are some tells I can look for to see if he is going for a fast roach push?
check their gas timing, if their still mining gas after the intitial 100 gas for speed then they will probably do some kind of pressure. Another way to deal with it is to use your hellions and immediately see the front of their natural expo if there is no spine expect roach pressure, if you see roaches already made immediately start bunkers + marauders and delay wtih hellions without them dying.
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On April 04 2012 12:53 arb wrote:
What are the current popular Protoss builds at the moment per matchup?
Tough question, toss openings are probably being experimented with the most these days.
PvT still kinda volatile but anything from Nexus-first to 3-gate pressure (depending on scouting). Usually works up to 3base colossi, then templar+storm.
PvZ at the pro level it's FFE into (usually) some form of 2base hard timing, or 3base deathball. Usually only3base when the 3rd is really easy to take, otherwise the zergs have gotten really good at keeping protosses on 2bases on a lot of maps.
PvP robo/blink play off 2-3 gates, expanding when safe.
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On April 04 2012 08:06 Snight wrote:
Any tips for learning to use location hotkeys? I suck at them and I think it might improve my gameplay
Race? When I play zerg, I use them for my 1st, 2nd and 3rd hatch locations to easily snag drones or defend drops. Terran I usually set one to my main rally point. Tips for learning? Sorry, just, force yourself to do it routinely, until you find yourself doing it under some pressure situations, then all of htem.
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Hello, I want to pick a good, (or a couple good) solid macro-game and standard play build(s) for playing TvZ on ladder. I have decided to go for a reactored helion expand with 3rax stim and reactored starport into 12marine-medivac harass/drop followup and marine-tank-medivac-play in the midgame.
My question regards the opener. Both the 13 gas with immediate reactored helions aswell as the 1rax FE and slightly delayed reactored helions/followup are quite popular and are used consistently by Korean pros, thats why I think there is no clear answer that one of them is better than the other. Could someone explain what would lead to the choice to pick one opener over the other, maybe with map specific reasons etc?
thanks
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On April 04 2012 03:36 crocodile wrote:
In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
not a lot tbh, a bigger tell is his gas timing. If you do suspect a 1gate fe go ahead and throw down that engi bay at his natural. Screws him over pretty hard if he was planning to do that.
Rescout to confirm he's not 1basing ~5:15 or however long it takes him to clear your engi bay. If it gets completely denied and you're weary of an all-in it's worth a scan to be safe.
On April 04 2012 08:06 Snight wrote:
Any tips for learning to use location hotkeys? I suck at them and I think it might improve my gameplay
definitely start using them, they make you so much more fluid mechanically (if you are protoss/terran, there are arguments as to why you wouldn't use them as zerg but it depends on your setup). Make it a point to always return to your base with camera hotkeys. If you place a pylon/depot at the corner of your base, camera hotkey -> shift queue that worker back to mining. I would go as far as to disable scrolling for a few games just to get in the habit. Just play more games and soon it will feel very natural, then you can start binding your other bases, your rally point, proxy pylons, creepturmors whatever you feel would be helpful.
Personally I rebind f1 (idle worker key) to a camera hotkey and use that for my main. I'd imagine I would want to go to my main a hell of a lot more often than selecting idle workers.
On April 04 2012 16:53 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 12:53 arb wrote:
What are the current popular Protoss builds at the moment per matchup? Tough question, toss openings are probably being experimented with the most these days. PvT still kinda volatile but anything from Nexus-first to 3-gate pressure (depending on scouting). Usually works up to 3base colossi, then templar+storm. PvZ at the pro level it's FFE into (usually) some form of 2base hard timing, or 3base deathball. Usually only3base when the 3rd is really easy to take, otherwise the zergs have gotten really good at keeping protosses on 2bases on a lot of maps. PvP robo/blink play off 2-3 gates, expanding when safe.
I was under the impression 98% of PvTs is some form of 1gate FE.
On April 04 2012 16:37 ricecake wrote:
In TvZ, what are some tells I can look for to see if he is going for a fast roach push?
You can clear the towers with a few marines while sending an scv to rescout at 5-6mins. Unless he opened gas first (which should set off alarm bells) he won't have speed to shut down your scv scout.
Oh and if you run into me on ladder, you should always expect a fast roach push ^^
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On April 04 2012 03:36 crocodile wrote:
In TvP, what is the significance of the Protoss skipping the first Zealot and just chronoing out the first stalker? I used to think it just indicated a greedy 1g expo, but I've seen a 3g Void Ray allin follow up. I know there are lots of possible follow ups, but what can it indicate about the Protoss' build?
Don't try to read too much into it. Skipping the first Zealot can mean anything.
I usually always skip the first Zealot unless I scout something really crazy. It can still mean a 4gate off of 3 - 6 Stalkers, it could mean Blink, it could mean 1 Gate FE (either with Stalker pressure or the Naniwa Sentry only style). I could continue... what I am trying to tell you is that it doesn't really mean anything yet. What's much more important to look out for at the beginning is what the Chronoboost is spent on. If you see that he uses all his Chrono on probes you can expect a 1Gate expo or even a 1Gate expo before Cybernetics Core but that also depends on what you do. If you don't show the sign of any expo, that makes a Protoss quite paranoid and he might add Gates quicker and a Robo (once again depending on his scouting, like if he got into your base, saw the gas timing etc.) I am making this more and more complicated.
TL;DR: It doesn't have to mean anything. Don't over-analyze it.
Pay more attention to what the Chronoboost is spent on.
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Hello. I'm new to Starcraft 2. I've been playing mostly single player games against the AI because I suck so much whenever I go online... LOL anyway, I do have lots of questions.
Lets say I have a group of Banelings set to one ctrl group and zerglings set to another. Lets assume I scout an army of marines marauders and medivacs making a b-line to my base.
How long of a delay should there be between my zerglings hitting the mass of marines and my banelings hitting them? Or to put another way, how long should I wait to send in my banelings after sending in an army of zerglings.... assume they start from the same position so you can't dodge the question by saying it's situational or some nonsense like that.
Medivacs. Assuming I went Baneling Speed/Zergling Speed early and I was able to take out all the marines with my bane/ling push, what would be the best way to go about dealing with the left over medivacs... Mutalisks or Infestors? ... I have no idea how to use the infestor lol.
My friends are actually bringing over laptops to play SC2 with me today. My friends set up lame rules like "no rushing until 15 minutes." Is burrowing a bunch of banelings outside my friend's ramp considered a rush? Is it considered cheese? Also, do terran sensor towers detect burrowed units?
When doing a 2v2 with a non-zerg partner, why is it so fun to spread creep into my partners base? I know I shouldn't be doing it but I just can't help myself.
Overseers... when, where, and why?
Fuck Marry Kill. Zerg, Protoss, Terran?
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how to pull probes effectively to not lose all of them to a hellion drop? im mid diamond right now, and my problem is drop play, i tried to pull my probes around my nexus but it didnt work out to well, terran killed like all of them with 3 (regular) hellions. is there a trick to pull them in a way they dont get roasted by hellions?
something i can think about right now is to click on a mineral at my natural to evacuate them, but i think they would stack up too much?
is it the same way like splitting marines against banelings? if yes then i am screwed^^. i cant imagine me to handle the units in such a panic situation correctly and would send them all directly in the lane of fire instead =/
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On April 05 2012 02:00 Mattson wrote:
My friends are actually bringing over laptops to play SC2 with me today. My friends set up lame rules like "no rushing until 15 minutes." Is burrowing a bunch of banelings outside my friend's ramp considered a rush? Is it considered cheese? Also, do terran sensor towers detect burrowed units?
You should ask your friend what he considers rushing to be. Anything after 8 minutes is not considered a rush, so maybe he meant to say no attacking/harass until 15 minutes?
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On April 04 2012 06:00 Zoedgy wrote:
I heard from some guy that Hydras were getting a speed upgrade in Heart of the swarm. BUT after watching a unit and upgrade overview i didnt see anything about hydra speed. Does anyone know if as of now there is a hydra change on the table as of now?
Yes it was mentioned during blizzcon, hydras getting a speed boost in the form of an upgrade researchable at hive tech.
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EPT
