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On April 03 2012 08:34 CookieMaker wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 07:55 Toadise wrote:In the Speedling Expand (Liquipedia) build, what is the optimal spawning pool time? The build order says 12-15, depending on if the second hatch is denied. So, if second hatch is denied, I should go as soon as it is, and otherwise go at 15? I thought 14 was better than 15. This is slightly confusing to me. P.S. I'm a Gold Zerg who hasn't played since season 3 really. Just started again as random. I am Silver now. This really should have been stickied ages ago...
This leaves me with more questions than answers. So 14 pool is good against protoss, hatch first against terran, and 11 overlord against zerg.
Well, considering I was wondering about the speedling expand build, I'll just stick with 14.
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TvZ: How many marines should I have patrolling to stop a nydus in my main when I am moving out with mech? (Assume poor minimap awareness and poor reaction time)
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Is there a good marine-hellion expo opening for TvT? I would like to know a proper build order if there is one... I've been experimenting with it on the fly, but I can't seem to find an optimum one. I've been trying with 3rax (1reactor, 2tech for stim/CS) and 1 naked factory and 2rax (1re,1tech) with 1 reactor factory, and adjusting from there.
Essentially I would like something that delays my own tanks but can also hold off 1-base tank pushes and heavy banshee play that can also punish a 1rax FE if need be. (haha that sounds like an overly versatile build now that I think of it...)
Granted, I am aware scouting and control goes a long way for all three of those things, but having a smoother build certainly wouldn't hurt.
Thanks in advance.
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On April 03 2012 01:16 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 00:27 pStar wrote:
As a gold zerg who is switching to Terran, what are the main things that I should try to focus on?
Are the builds just a few posts above the ones that I should focus on? I would quite like to Mech v Z but i don't know if i have the appropriate skill to do that? Recently took up T myself after playing Z the last 2 years.... Some things that I needed to learn: - throwing down enough production to spend my money. Expoing as terran makes your money spike, really fast, mules really are f*king incredible. Make sure u have enough production for it. -Terran is fantastic to learn early in that you can follow a BO quite well in the early game of each matchup... find one that you like for each MU (for me it's a 1rax expo in every matchup) and become familliar with everything about it, timings, transisitions, when to hold allins, etc. This really helps develop your terran gamesense. -stutter-step micro: I still suck at it, but it makes the bio sooooooo much more powerful if executed well. Remember all those times you got 2-raxed as zerg? Yeah, stutter-step is strong. Learn it. -Mech vs Z is fun for sure, but it is a long, macro-oriented strategy. Make sure you are aware that to learn this style, you will be attempting to play the long game, and must learn to expand, harass, hold, produce, etc, all at once. If you are really brand-new to terran, Learning a 2-base timing or 1-base allin first isn't a bad idea, as it gets you far more familliar with terran mechanics. Mech requires that you are at least aware of the basic mechanics, or else you'll find yourself dying long before you are able to push out with that sturdy force. Good luck!
I dont feel the same concerning mech in TvZ:
I play random (currently at gold level) after playing zerg and protoss and I am really really more confortable playing mech in TvZ than any other strat.
Having a deathball that you can attack-move around makes your life easier, you dont have to stutter step micro and you dont have to worry about being caught unsieged and swarmed by lings (hellions roast them). Also, having thors shuts down muta play which is hard to learn to deal with. You can focus on macroing and getting obvious upgrades.
You dont need to harass much at gold level: I expand whiling poking the zerg front with hellions and it seems to be enough.
That's just my perspective, it might be different for other gold players and is certainly different at higher level, but i encourage you to give mech a try. I had a really hard time in TvZ before I switched to mech.
I even use mech in TvT now. (I hate marine-tank-viking battles, but I find breaking a tank line by attack-moving a mech army hilarious)
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On April 03 2012 10:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:
TvZ: How many marines should I have patrolling to stop a nydus in my main when I am moving out with mech? (Assume poor minimap awareness and poor reaction time)
If you work on the awareness you can just shut them down with SCV's, however you could leave 1 marine behind to shoo away the overlord that comes in to sight it.
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I have a simple question but it doesn't pertain to strategy - I'll ask it anyways here since I don't wanna make a whole thread about it.
Do players in the GSL or even BW players when they play on TV wear makeup?
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Also a non strategy question: Does anyone have any idea when patch 1.5 is going to come out? Just curious. Thanks!
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On April 03 2012 10:52 Toadise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:34 CookieMaker wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 07:55 Toadise wrote:In the Speedling Expand (Liquipedia) build, what is the optimal spawning pool time? The build order says 12-15, depending on if the second hatch is denied. So, if second hatch is denied, I should go as soon as it is, and otherwise go at 15? I thought 14 was better than 15. This is slightly confusing to me. P.S. I'm a Gold Zerg who hasn't played since season 3 really. Just started again as random. I am Silver now. This really should have been stickied ages ago... This leaves me with more questions than answers. So 14 pool is good against protoss, hatch first against terran, and 11 overlord against zerg. Well, considering I was wondering about the speedling expand build, I'll just stick with 14.
I believe the opens are pretty dated. For example in ZvP the toss will almost always FFE and zergs tend to take a hatch around 16 and their third around 24? Of course, everyone has their own playstyle but quick thirds and FFEs seem to be pretty much the norm in ZvP right now.
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Where can I find the recent MLG replays?
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Do ranged attacks actually hit quicker when they are shot from closer away? or is the shot speed scaled so that it's the same speed no matter the position?
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On April 03 2012 22:24 Hulavuta wrote:
Do ranged attacks actually hit quicker when they are shot from closer away? or is the shot speed scaled so that it's the same speed no matter the position?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3123033872
Here is a thread that might interest you. It's a very detailed, nicely laid out thread on the bnet forums, which, I know, is rare. xD
Basically, units that don't shoot a missile have instant attacks. Units that attack with missile (stalker, marauder) are affected by range.
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what do people mean by abusive play
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On April 03 2012 23:24 smash1 wrote:
what do people mean by abusive play
Quite a lot of things, but generally it refers to finding some aspect of usually a map, but maybe a unit, positioning or in some people's mind a whole race, which can be seen to provide an advatnage which is very difficult for the opponent to overcome. Abusive play would be finding and using these advantages as the core of your play. It's usually meant as an insult to say "you only won because you had unfair advantage x".
A potential example of abusive play would be siege tank rushing to the natural in TvZ on the old Lost Temple map, where a Terran would drop a few marines and siege tanks on high ground over the natural expansion of the Zerg player, on a map with no easy third base, and use the high ground position to siege the base without the Zerg being able to respond.
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On Metalopolis and Shattered Temple, what is the timing to expect the Zerg's overlord in close-air positions?
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On Metalopolis and Shattered Temple, what is the timing to expect the Zerg's overlord in close-air positions? between 13-14 supply
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if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over?
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On April 03 2012 23:42 Abusion wrote:
if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over?
24 is actually oversaturated. On 8 patches, 2 on each would be 16 and then for absolute maximum you only need one more for each distant patch (so really not more than 20 or 21). Typically you'd stop at 16 though because the third drone on far patches gives less income than the others.
As to your question, a resource not often talked about is time, so if you have the mineral income to do so you should absolutely spend the time producing some extra Probes as your third base is building up. There are times when you will intentionally be cutting Probes for a timing or something, but that not being the case you want to get your economy as strong as possible, as fast as possible. The sooner you have saturated your third, the faster it can pay for itself, and the less risk you're taking.
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On April 03 2012 23:47 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 23:42 Abusion wrote:
if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over? 24 is actually oversaturated. On 8 patches, 2 on each would be 16 and then for absolute maximum you only need one more for each distant patch (so really not more than 20 or 21). Typically you'd stop at 16 though because the third drone on far patches gives less income than the others. As to your question, a resource not often talked about is time, so if you have the mineral income to do so you should absolutely spend the time producing some extra Probes as your third base is building up. There are times when you will intentionally be cutting Probes for a timing or something, but that not being the case you want to get your economy as strong as possible, as fast as possible. The sooner you have saturated your third, the faster it can pay for itself, and the less risk you're taking.
Actually, Saturated does = 24 by the definition of the word. This means that adding more harvesters yields no gain However, "Optimal" = 16.... What this means is that each worker up to 16 will yield the the FULL benefit of adding 1 worker. Any workers added between 16-24 will only "Marginally" increase your income rate. I'll find the full thread on this, then report back 
EDIT: Thanks Sheth! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219257
And the answer is yes and no to the original question.... Are you planning a 2base timing push? then yes, stop making probes. Do you plan on taking your third soon? Is it already building? Then yes, keep making probes!
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On April 04 2012 01:08 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 23:47 Iyerbeth wrote:On April 03 2012 23:42 Abusion wrote:
if I am saturated in my main and natural (24 on minerals) should I stop making probes until after my third has finished or before so I can rally some over? 24 is actually oversaturated. On 8 patches, 2 on each would be 16 and then for absolute maximum you only need one more for each distant patch (so really not more than 20 or 21). Typically you'd stop at 16 though because the third drone on far patches gives less income than the others. As to your question, a resource not often talked about is time, so if you have the mineral income to do so you should absolutely spend the time producing some extra Probes as your third base is building up. There are times when you will intentionally be cutting Probes for a timing or something, but that not being the case you want to get your economy as strong as possible, as fast as possible. The sooner you have saturated your third, the faster it can pay for itself, and the less risk you're taking. Actually, Saturated does = 24 by the definition of the word. This means that adding more harvesters yields no gain However, "Optimal" = 16.... What this means is that each worker up to 16 will yield the the FULL benefit of adding 1 worker. Any workers added between 16-24 will only "Marginally" increase your income rate. I'll find the full thread on this, then report back EDIT: Thanks Sheth! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219257And the answer is yes and no to the original question.... Are you planning a 2base timing push? then yes, stop making probes. Do you plan on taking your third soon? Is it already building? Then yes, keep making probes!
Edit: Hmmm I would argue that Sheth was actually wrong in saying 24 is the upper limit, but I'd need to do more research as per the reasoning in this post as it was originally:
Hey, I did use the right term!  24 is over saturated as close mineral patches gain no benefit at all from a third Drone, and so you'd only at most for full saturation need 1 more for each distant patch, which is to say 20 or 21, depending on how many close patches. Which is what I said.
But yeah, we're basically agreeing so far as I can tell. 
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On April 03 2012 19:18 AyahuascaSage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 10:52 Toadise wrote:On April 03 2012 08:34 CookieMaker wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 07:55 Toadise wrote:In the Speedling Expand (Liquipedia) build, what is the optimal spawning pool time? The build order says 12-15, depending on if the second hatch is denied. So, if second hatch is denied, I should go as soon as it is, and otherwise go at 15? I thought 14 was better than 15. This is slightly confusing to me. P.S. I'm a Gold Zerg who hasn't played since season 3 really. Just started again as random. I am Silver now. This really should have been stickied ages ago... This leaves me with more questions than answers. So 14 pool is good against protoss, hatch first against terran, and 11 overlord against zerg. Well, considering I was wondering about the speedling expand build, I'll just stick with 14. I believe the opens are pretty dated. For example in ZvP the toss will almost always FFE and zergs tend to take a hatch around 16 and their third around 24? Of course, everyone has their own playstyle but quick thirds and FFEs seem to be pretty much the norm in ZvP right now.
Yeah, I guess it was ambiguous for today's stuff.
-Typically hatch-first vs terran is completely standard on every map, followed by a 14-15-16 pool (depending on how safe you feel).
-Again, depending on what league you're in (higher leagues are more likely to do this...), the typical protoss opening is either a 1 base timing, (3 or 4 gates), 1 gate expand, or forge fast expand. Because of how easy it is to cannon rush a Hatch-first opening as protoss when forge-fast-expanding, most pro zergs will throw down a spawning pool on 14-15, not take gas, and try to get that hatch down as fast as possible, either at their third (if going for a double-expand followup, very common against FFE), or at their natural after lings get out. Some pros like Sheth will go 14pool almost every single time, and expect to get out 2-4 lings before putting down the hatch at the natural
-vs. Zerg, there are 3 relatively standard openings that all have their benefits. 10pool or earlier is aggressive, and is economically behind a 14pool or 15 hatch build unless it can do some drone damage. 14pool/14gas into 21hatch (typcial speedling expand) is very standard, and is usually almost even with a 15hatch build, but generally needs to do a little damage (picking off one or 2 drones) or at least force extra lings/spines from the 15hatch player, then comes out very even. 15hatch has the potential to be the most economical, but relies on holding off early aggression without being forced to make a lot of lings or spines. As for exact numbers, nobody knows, but if you watch some zvz's of 14pool vs 15 hatch, you can keep an eye on the drone count and see how even it is if the 14pool player can get in an snipe a drone or 2 early.
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EPT
