EPTSimple Questions Simple Answers - Page 344
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
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Gwaltgw
United States44 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:10 Gwaltgw wrote: Is there ever any reason/situation to transform a warpgate back to a gateway? Why does this hotkey exist? You want to make 2 hts and turn them into archons, but his blue-flame hellions keep on killing them as they warp in at your single, small power field from 4 adjacent pylons, before they can morph into an archon. This archon would let you win the game as he only has his 3 blue-flame hellions and a supply depot. You only have the 4 pylons, 2 gateways, and a templar archives. Unfortunately, these buildings are laid out such that you can't warp in HTs anywhere that he doesn't see them immediatley and kill them as they're warping... So you close your warpgates into gateways and make 2 templar. This way, instead of spending 5 seconds being shot by hellions, they spend 55 seconds cowering inside the gateways then come out and immediately morph before being killed. And he can't kill your 4 pylons in time <3 EDIT: Gate shuffle does not work, it was patched out of the game. Also, if you were in a big rush and had a lot of chrono boost and apm, you could produce twice as fast out of warpgates when making templars and either sentries or zealots: Step 1: warp in DT/HT. begin warpgate cooldown (45) Step 2: turn warpgate into gateway (10 seconds) Step 3: chrono boost out a zealot or sentry (27 seconds) Step 4: turn gateway back into warpgate (10 seconds) Step 5: warpgate has just come off of cooldown, and now you have a DT/HT AND a Zealot/Sentry. Repeat from Step 1. Do this simultaneously for all warpgates. If you do this, it lets you produce twice as many gateway units in a given period of time, and you're only chrono-boosting half the time; a 100% increase in production for 50% chrono boost time, whereas on a normal warpgate with constant (twice as much) chrono boost, you'd only get a 50% increase in production. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
Also, cool to know about the warpgate/gateway trick. I wonder if I can base a 3 gate timing attack around that | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
He DID ask if there was ever any reason, so I thought of a situation. The "transforming back and forth" thing needs chrono boost for each warpgate every 45 seconds for it to be maximally efficient. However, even WITHOUT chrono boost, if you have 45 second warpgate cooldown, you could just spent 57 seconds transforming back and forth and building a non-chrono-boosted zealot and warping in a DT/HT simultaneously, which means each group of 3 warpgates produces 3 zealots and 3 templars/DTs per minute; to do the same with just regular warpgates, you'd need 4. EDIT: it's kinda apm-intensive though. Over the course of each minute you need to warpin a Dt/HT and begin morphing; then, 10 seconds later, begin your zealot. Then, when the zealot is done, immediately begin morphing back, then the cycle begins anew. This is basically unrealistic except for some weird 1-base rush that wants to do a DT attack off of fewer gateways without cutting zealots, or perhaps cutting a gateway to save up for a nexus. It's also worth noting that with 4 warpgates, you're producing every 30 seconds or so, whereas with this setup you get 1 unit, then you wait 45 seconds before you get another unit, then 10 seconds after that you get another unit. Pylon timing and ability to warp in and make decisions about warpins ahead of time are negatively impacted by this pattern. | ||
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MoreSore
Ireland73 Posts
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
 Also, I'd probably primarily chrono sentries in gateway mode, and then switch and use warpgate for bigger things like stalkers. If I still played toss, I would definitely try this in pvt. Also might have interesting anti-4gate properties in pvp | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:37 MoreSore wrote: Does a Protoss have to hit every warp in, unless he's building tech buildings ? You should allocate your production resources so that you should hit every warp in no matter what. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:39 Aletheia27 wrote: Decision making processes can be prearranged and adaptive to non-linear cyclical analysis. So that's fine. It is apm intensive...but perhaps actually. A 1 gate expand build that tech a little faster but uses the saved resources for more units could be interesting Also, I'd probably primarily chrono sentries in gateway mode, and then switch and use warpgate for bigger things like stalkers. If I still played toss, I would definitely try this in pvt. Also might have interesting anti-4gate properties in pvp It's a little less efficient when making stalkers, because a stalker has a warpgate cooldown of 32 seconds rather than 45- Which means your progression would look more like this: 1) Warp in Stalker (begin 32 second cooldown) 2) transform to gateway (10 seconds) 3) make sentry (27 seconds with chrono boost, 37 without) 4) transform to warpgate (10 seconds) at this point, either 47 seconds have passed or 57 depending on whether or not you chrono boost. If you do not chrono boost, this means that every 57 seconds, your gateway produces 1 stalker and 1 sentry; but this is very very close to the 1:04 it takes to produce 1 stalker and 1 sentry from a regular warpgate! not good at all. If you DO chrono boost, this means that every 47 seconds, your gateway produces 1 stalker and 1 sentry. This compares to a regular chrono-boosted warpgate, which performs the same feat in 54 seconds. What this means is that due to the close-together build times of sentry and stalker, you're producing a meager 11% faster then you would with a normal warpgate when using this trick. When using chrono boost, this trick produces 13% faster than a regular warpgate with the same number of chrono boosts. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
Also, maybe I can time it to make a "round" using this trick for pure sentries. who knows ;P | ||
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Geiko
France2044 Posts
Nice theorycrafting though | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:56 Geiko wrote: Sorry to break your party guys but warpgate cool down is blocked when in gateway form. Nice theorycrafting though Wait, really? I seem to remember reading in this thread that they DID cool down while in gateway form ._. liquipedia is silent on the matter. I will go test this when I get on battle.net in a couple hours, but if someone wants to take a look at it in the meantime please post. EDIT: yeah! totally! It's called the "gate shuffle" look here's a dude with an excel spreadsheet, he's so cool: On June 23 2010 06:18 Bibdy wrote: ![[image loading]](http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8509/gatewaytimes.jpg) Mathy goodness. Those are all of the different unit combinations you can do in a 2-unit cycle with the timings involved. T = Templar (DT/HT), S = Stalker/Sentry and Z = Zealot Basically what its saying, as an example (2nd line), if you build a Templar unit from the Warp Gate, switch to a GW and build a Sentry, you'll have access to that Sentry 5 seconds sooner than had you done it with WGs alone. You'll also be able to build, and access a 3rd unit (whatever it is, it'll take 5 seconds to 'deploy' from this point) 22 seconds earlier via Shuffling than had you just used Warp Gates. So, if you start with a Sentry or Templar in the Shuffle rotation, you'll get the 3rd unit 9 or 22 (respectively) seconds quicker than just WGs. If you start with a Zealot in the Shuffle rotation, you're not gaining anything (regardless of what the 2nd unit is). If you keep building units of the same type (S-S, Z-Z or T-T), the second one is always going to be ACCESSIBLE 8 seconds later (13 seconds to flip back and forth between building types, minus 5 seconds of time you save from the warp-in), but the third one will always be quicker if you started with a Sentry or Templar. And if you build units of the following combos: T-S, T-Z or S-Z (i.e. longer build-time unit followed by a shorter build-time one), you're ALWAYS going to get access to that second unit quicker, AS WELL as quicker access to the 3rd unit. The math: Overlap = Build Time (2nd unit) + 13 - Cooldown (1st unit) Access to 2nd unit: WG = Place a unit, wait on cooldown, place another one, wait on warp-in = Cooldown + 5 Access to 2nd unit: Shuffle = Swap to gateway, build the second unit = Build Time (2nd unit) + 3 Access to 3rd unit: WG = Place a unit, wait on cooldown, place another, wait on cooldown, place another = 2x(Cooldown) + 5 Access to 3rd unit: Shuffle = 2nd unit built, swap to Warp Gate, place 3rd unit, wait on warp-in = Access to 2nd unit: Shuffle + 15 maybe this was patched out? | ||
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ChopSuey2
United States50 Posts
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Geiko
France2044 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 20 2011 07:06 ChopSuey2 wrote: Is there a thread made of guides? Because the Liquipedia really seems to be lacking in-depth guides. Here's a stickied thread with guides by race and matchup for beginners and advanced: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192233 | ||
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Intensity
53 Posts
On August 19 2011 01:21 BlasiuS wrote: most high-level players put all of their hatcheries on one hotkey; this makes it very easy to use larvae as soon as they are generated, thus never having idle larvae. The best way to rally is to just right-click at a location with all of your hatcheries selected. This will rally all hatches to the same spot. You can also do this with a worker rally (orange rally line) to quickly make workers for a new expansion. Sadly, there is no rally specifically for overlords  you have to remember to spread your overlords manually.A good default hotkey setup for zerg: 1-4: units 5: all hatcheries 6: 1st Queen 7: 2nd Queen 8: 3rd Queen 9: 4th Queen/key tech building 0: 5th Queen/upgrade buildings Thanks a bunch bud. I'm a silver player who watches pro games constantly. I know battle tactics / theory really well but I lack mechanics and build orders. I can only play so much due to a physical limitation with a damaged right hand, but I'm always trying to get better I play Terran (for now - would like to switch to Protos) I bind my keys as follows: 1-4 Army 5 - Command Centers 6 - Rax 7 - Starport 8 - Factory (no idea how or why I bound port before fact. Maybe something to do with single player progression?) 9 - Engineering Bay 0 - Armory I use my F keys to bind locations on the map (f2 onward for base + naturals) | ||
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Gwaltgw
United States44 Posts
Sorry to break your party guys but warpgate cool down is blocked when in gateway form. Nice theorycrafting though I just tested this in game and it is true. Warpgate cooldown IS stopped while its turned back into a gateway. That sucks. I was getting all excited from reading the posts and imagining the possibilities. You want to make 2 hts and turn them into archons, but his blue-flame hellions keep on killing them as they warp in at your single, small power field from 4 adjacent pylons, before they can morph into an archon. This archon would let you win the game as he only has his 3 blue-flame hellions and a supply depot. You only have the 4 pylons, 2 gateways, and a templar archives. Unfortunately, these buildings are laid out such that you can't warp in HTs anywhere that he doesn't see them immediatley and kill them as they're warping... So you close your warpgates into gateways and make 2 templar. This way, instead of spending 5 seconds being shot by hellions, they spend 55 seconds cowering inside the gateways then come out and immediately morph before being killed. And he can't kill your 4 pylons in time <3 So about the original question, except for very rare circumstances like the one mentioned, it is pointless right? I want to unbind the key forever. I guess if I ever get into one of those situations i'll just click the button manually. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 20 2011 07:18 Intensity wrote: Thanks a bunch bud. I'm a silver player who watches pro games constantly. I know battle tactics / theory really well but I lack mechanics and build orders. I can only play so much due to a physical limitation with a damaged right hand, but I'm always trying to get better I play Terran (for now - would like to switch to Protos) I bind my keys as follows: 1-4 Army 5 - Command Centers 6 - Rax 7 - Starport 8 - Factory (no idea how or why I bound port before fact. Maybe something to do with single player progression?) 9 - Engineering Bay 0 - Armory I use my F keys to bind locations on the map (f2 onward for base + naturals) I don't know if this would be more comfortable for you, but you may want to consider playing left-handed. Depending on both the severity of your hand injury and your level of ambidexterity, it might be less straining. There are hotkey setups specifically for doing this as default options on battle.net and you can customize to suit your needs as well as eliminate stressful hotkeys and move them towards more comfortable locations on the keyboard. EDIT: On August 20 2011 07:35 Gwaltgw wrote: I just tested this in game and it is true. Warpgate cooldown IS stopped while its turned back into a gateway. That sucks. I was getting all excited from reading the posts and imagining the possibilities. So about the original question, except for very rare circumstances like the one mentioned, it is pointless right? I want to unbind the key forever. I guess if I ever get into one of those situations i'll just click the button manually. Yeah, basically. Warpgates produce faster and produce everywhere. The other time you might want to have a gateway instead of a warpgate is+ Show Spoiler + if you're out of pylons, but have a nexus (which means you have supply), but you don't want to make probes, because you only have like 500 minerals and your only nexus is in your main and your main AND natural AND your third are mined out (it was a long game). If you build a probe you need to long-distance mine from the gold and you're on backwater gultch. You have 1 Warp Prism, and 1 Observer. Your opponent has no attack units except for a queen that is slowly, slowly making its way towards your base to finish you off. So you instead want to spend your money on units, let's say, 2 zealots and a sentry, or 2stalkers or something. You want to lay down a power field to power all your gateways. However, you placed your gateways in a triangle shape around a photon cannon and cybernetics core which means the only way to power all of them at once is to open the warp prism over the cybernetics core, leaving not quite enough power field open to warp in a zealot because the core and cannon block your power field. Your opponent is, let's say, a zerg player, and his only units are 1 queen and 3 spore crawlers. Normally you'd make a pylon, so you could make a couple stalkers and kill his queen then press on to kill his 3 buildings, but your opponent is very wiley and has positioned about 10 overlords around your gateways, spreading creep. He planted several spore crawlers nearby since he doesnt' want your warp prism to power the gateways. HOWEVER, if you can fly past the spore crawlers (you can, it's a speed prism) to your cannon, you can power it and he won't be able to edge his spore crawlers any closer since the cannon will shoot them. In this case you'd want to power the warpgates, and turn them back into gateways since you don't have enough room to warp anything into a power field, and make a stalker or something to kill the queen. One could imagine other situations where you base trade against a banshee rushing terran, and you need to use your warp prism to power your final cannon, your only means of detection, which is also guarding your final gateway. You have 2 stalkers, which means you can hold off his final banshee IF YOU CAN SEE IT, but you can't actually attack him. Due to the way your cyber core and many extraneous gateways are laid out, the only way to power both the cannon and at least 1 gateway would require that you not have enough room to warp in a stalker-- so you make it through the gateway. In this case you also have a nexus but it's close by and easy to protect (part of the building cluster around which this cannon provides detection). | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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