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On August 04 2011 04:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 01:23 lizzard_warish wrote: Ok for some reason my questions are consistently overlooked, so I'm reposting one from a couple pages back: Does anyone know of the exact build or a replay to demonstrate the six gate into 2 stargate phoneix which is popular in korea? My GOD does it look fun! That sounds like a terrible idea to me... But if you want to I suggest Forge FE into 6 Gate. Forge FE, then make 6 Gates. Attack. Then lay down 2 Stargates. There isn't a build for it, sounds like you just do a 6 Gate, and if it fails go double Stargate.
Kiwikaki vs Strifecro on Crevasse seems like an example of this style. I'll see what I can deduce from the game.
Spoilers for the IPL team arena if you open the VOD link + Show Spoiler +
Edit: I rewatched the game and wrote notes, forgive me for not giving a simple answer!
Game breakdown focusing on kiwikaki (As does the VOD haha) + Show Spoiler + Crevasse is the map which is very important. The spawns are vertical on the right hand side, but Crevasse is still very large. Kiwikaki sees Strifecro expand at the third instead of at the in base natural. Kiwikaki decides to go nexus first at his natural. This makes sense as Kiwikaki won't get terribly behind if Strifecro takes a fast third (Which he opts to as he can expand to his in base natural) and Kiwikaki can defend his entire base against any pressure with a wall by the ramp and destructible rocks.
The build is 18nex, 18 pylon,18forge, 19gate, 21 assimilator. The nexus could have been planted at 17, but a lot of players have different timing for nexus first so it is very possible that this was intentional. Plenty of probes are coming out and two cannons come after the gas and keep the wall safe. A cybercore goes up at 27. Again I think he has been just a little late on some of these structures, but I'm not a pro so there may be a reason to some of these timings.
Kiwikaki continues to make lots of probes, gets a second gas before his core finishes, and gets warpgate as soon as the core finishes. Kiwikaki begins plus one weapons quickly after warp gates. It should be noted that lots of probes are coming out with chronos still going to them despite warp gate and plus one being researched. 5 gates are placed down before the 50 food mark for Kiwikaki to bring him up to six gates.
2 stargates get thrown down simultaneously and then ground armor after that. The gates start making a mix of units, but there are a lot of zealots. The stargates get chronoed to produce tons of pheonixes. Kiwikaki wants to expand here but when it gets denied he instead makes zealots to spend his money temporarily. After fighting back the lings Kiwikaki does plant the third again while getting a robo. This happens just before Kiwikaki hits 100 food.
Strifecro engages at the third with roaches and lings, but the pheonixes keep a huge chunk of the roaches lifted while the whole army of Kiwikaki just blasts the units on the ground with the help of two photon cannons and good force fields. The +attack speedlings were getting ripped apart by the +attack zealots which were present in pretty decent numbers.
Lots of pheonixes are still coming out, a few cannons are used to defend the third. The robo makes mostly observes, but a few immortals are used (I think he consistly keeps a couple throughout the game). Once kiwikaki's third gets up and running and he has both gas at the third, Kiwikaki starts making a twilight council and gets plus 1 air attack. Once the twilight council comes up charge and plus 2 ground attack start getting researched. It is still pretty impressive how many probes Kiwikaki is producing.
Strifecro again engages the third of Kiwikaki but it is a large group of hydras with too few speedlings to tank and almost no roaches. The speedlings are again getting two shot by the upgraded zealots. The pheonixes kill huge quantities of hydras (I think the upgraded air attack helps lower the number of shots they need to kill a hydra). The interesting part here is that the high hydra dps gets split trying to kill pheonixes and zealots (Charge isn't done yet). Both of these units usually die too quickly to really hurt hydras, but once they start dealing damage the hydras just melt due to the good dps of both units and especially due to the paper tissue health of the hydras.
After that failed hydra push Kiwi starts templar tech and charge finishes. He gets his fourth relatively soon after templar tech starts and also begins +3 attack. Kiwikaki begins building archons around the time his fourth finishes. The next attack from StrifeCro (Again at the third of Kiwikaki) contains mostly hydra but this time there are a few more roaches and speedlings. The thin roach line melts to archons and the few immortals kiwi has produced. After that it is just chargelots and the huge pheonix ball melting the hydras.
Kiwi's economy at this point is insane and he can just make mass quantities of archons or whatever he wants and his units are insanely well upgraded. His next push smashes through StrifeCro's stuff to end the game.
Speculation/End Thoughts
The only thing I didn't track was the gateway count past the 6gates in the early game. I think the gateway count and pheonix count are pretty important to keep track of as Kiwikaki could die easily if he lacked production. However, the upgrades and insane probe production seemed to be the most important tool here to keep the build effective as you need both to make zealots work well, to support enough gateways to protect yourself against zerg pushes, and to make expensive units such as pheonixes and archons viable to produce and fight with.
I think you can justify the high gateway count as you need them to build large unit counts in quick bursts. Kiwikaki definitely seemed to spend his money on anything but gateway units when he could do so without dieing. Also, Painuser seemed to think that infestors are the answer to this style, but I really beg to differ. Sniping infestors with pheonixes is way easier than vice versa. Pheonixes are hard to pin down with fungal and as long as you aren't surprised by infestors they are also easy to keep spread out (They attack while moving come on!).
Building infestors and hydras at the same time would be necessary just to kill the pheonixes, but at that point the zerg won't have enough gas. Catspajamas did seem to make fun of that fact that getting spire tech would take too long, but honestly that should not be the concern. I think the appropriate response is spire tech as corruptors own pheonixes and set you up for brood lords in the late game which will do well if you have successfully taken air control (Ultras don't help very much against zealot/archon anyways).
Another thing that would be important against this style is to get the right upgrades. Plus melee attack is the wrong upgrade. Lings are going to melt without armor and are very bad against high zealot counts and totally worthless once archons show up. The zerg has to be johnny on the spot with his upgrades as they are what stop the Protoss units from being cost effective. In short, make sure your roaches get lots of attack and armor upgrades and that your corruptors don't get out upgraded either as they need to be extremely efficient or you will have too many and just die to the ground army. Armor is important when you fight zealots and pheonixes which attack twice in one firing animation.
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What standard build should I start with as Terran vs every match up? Since it's best to have one build order for every match up, what ones are the best standard builds for a macro game that can hold an early attack? Nothing too fancy Thanks A LOT in advance!<3
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In PvZ, is it generally just a bad move to engage with collosus when your opponent has a lot of infestors with NP?
I lost a game last night where I had every advantage: I was up a base, had better upgrades, and had a maxed deathball that included stalkers, 5 collosus, and 6 high templar with storm. His army consisted of mass roach and roughly 12!! infestors with NP.
Facing that many infestors, there doesn't seem to be any way to blink --> focus, collosus snipe, and/or feedback enough of them to prevent the NPs from landing. Once the NPs land, my collosus and roaches mow down the rest of my army. Since he has the easier micro-work (land 5 NPs on giant stationary targets flashing laser beams vs land feedbacks or whatever on 12 rapidly-moving vague brown blobs in a sea of similar-looking brown blobs), I guess "the only way to win is not to play"? Just don't build collosus versus infestors?
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On August 04 2011 07:28 galivet wrote: In PvZ, is it generally just a bad move to engage with collosus when your opponent has a lot of infestors with NP?
I lost a game last night where I had every advantage: I was up a base, had better upgrades, and had a maxed deathball that included stalkers, 5 collosus, and 6 high templar with storm. His army consisted of mass roach and roughly 12!! infestors with NP.
Facing that many infestors, there doesn't seem to be any way to blink --> focus, collosus snipe, and/or feedback enough of them to prevent the NPs from landing. Once the NPs land, my collosus and roaches mow down the rest of my army. Since he has the easier micro-work (land 5 NPs on giant stationary targets flashing laser beams vs land feedbacks or whatever on 12 rapidly-moving vague brown blobs in a sea of similar-looking brown blobs), I guess "the only way to win is not to play"? Just don't build collosus versus infestors?
You realize that you can kill an infestor that has NP'ed a unit right? An NP that has landed is not the end of the world.
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Nobody seems to have trouble feedbacking my infestors when I go mass infestor late game. They're pretty fragile units and they're roughly the size of a city bus. I'd like to see a replay..
On August 04 2011 05:18 Teoita wrote: This question isn't particularly simple, but still it doesn't warrant it's own thread so here goes: in PvZ i'm often able to deny/kill his third with void rays off forge expand or 1gate expand mc style; at this point i'm on 2 bases, have a good worker count (50+) and 5ish gateways, but not much tech other than the stargate, and i don't really know what my next step should be: taking a third vs a 2 base zerg really makes no sense, so i should probably opt for some kind of 2 base timing, but other than that i don't know what i should go for. Since i often go pretty heavy on the stargate units (3 voids and a few phoenixes) i usually force hydras, so colossus is the logical next step, but i'm unsure wether i can just go kill the zerg when i have 4 or so colossi, or take a delayed third and play a longer game. What should i look for to make the decision of allining vs taking another base?
Yeah.. it's a very situational question but I think your first priority should be to chrono upgrades nonstop then units. I don't know how to answer because I don't know what your opponent will do. If he goes hydras then getting out a lot of collosii seems to be the hardest unit to deal with if I have roach hydra. If I went roach infestor then immortals and archons would be harder to deal with. If I went for ling infestor then storms. .. So yeah I don't know what to say. Sorry.
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On August 04 2011 07:33 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 07:28 galivet wrote: In PvZ, is it generally just a bad move to engage with collosus when your opponent has a lot of infestors with NP?
I lost a game last night where I had every advantage: I was up a base, had better upgrades, and had a maxed deathball that included stalkers, 5 collosus, and 6 high templar with storm. His army consisted of mass roach and roughly 12!! infestors with NP.
Facing that many infestors, there doesn't seem to be any way to blink --> focus, collosus snipe, and/or feedback enough of them to prevent the NPs from landing. Once the NPs land, my collosus and roaches mow down the rest of my army. Since he has the easier micro-work (land 5 NPs on giant stationary targets flashing laser beams vs land feedbacks or whatever on 12 rapidly-moving vague brown blobs in a sea of similar-looking brown blobs), I guess "the only way to win is not to play"? Just don't build collosus versus infestors? You realize that you can kill an infestor that has NP'ed a unit right? An NP that has landed is not the end of the world.
Ya, one NP is not the end of the world. 5 NPs taking control of 5 collosus that have your stalkers pinned between them and a ton of roaches pretty much is though. Sure, you can maybe suicide your blink stalkers to kill those infestors that landed NPs, but then you have no army. 5 collosus plus roaches kill stalkers really fast.
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On August 04 2011 08:17 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 07:33 Anihc wrote:On August 04 2011 07:28 galivet wrote: In PvZ, is it generally just a bad move to engage with collosus when your opponent has a lot of infestors with NP?
I lost a game last night where I had every advantage: I was up a base, had better upgrades, and had a maxed deathball that included stalkers, 5 collosus, and 6 high templar with storm. His army consisted of mass roach and roughly 12!! infestors with NP.
Facing that many infestors, there doesn't seem to be any way to blink --> focus, collosus snipe, and/or feedback enough of them to prevent the NPs from landing. Once the NPs land, my collosus and roaches mow down the rest of my army. Since he has the easier micro-work (land 5 NPs on giant stationary targets flashing laser beams vs land feedbacks or whatever on 12 rapidly-moving vague brown blobs in a sea of similar-looking brown blobs), I guess "the only way to win is not to play"? Just don't build collosus versus infestors? You realize that you can kill an infestor that has NP'ed a unit right? An NP that has landed is not the end of the world. Ya, one NP is not the end of the world. 5 NPs taking control of 5 collosus that have your stalkers pinned between them and a ton of roaches pretty much is though. Sure, you can maybe suicide your blink stalkers to kill those infestors that landed NPs, but then you have no army. 5 collosus plus roaches kill stalkers really fast.
You had a maxed army... so 30 supply of colossus, 12 supply of HT... that means at least 50 supply of stalkers if not more depending on how many probes you have. It only takes 7 stalkers to 1 shot an infestor, or 3 colossus to 1 shot an infestor. Don't tell me you can't afford to sac a few stalkers to blink and snipe infestors that are NPing your colossus. Also, what are your HT doing?? With 6 HTs you should easily be able to blanket storm everything. Zerg doesn't have EMP.
Ok, for a more serious and less condescending answer:
1) Don't panic when NPs come out. 2) Try to target fire infestors who are NPing with your colossus first. I doubt he can simultaneously all 5 of your colossus before you get a few shots off, hopefully killing an infestor that has already NPed you. 3) Blink in with a handful of stalkers to snipe infestors that are NPing. 4) Storm the shit out of everything. When the zerg has a lot of inestors (like 12 in your case), I don't even bothering trying to feedback them, it's much more efficient and easier just to storm everything.
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On August 04 2011 07:37 Probe1 wrote:Nobody seems to have trouble feedbacking my infestors when I go mass infestor late game. They're pretty fragile units and they're roughly the size of a city bus. I'd like to see a replay.. Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 05:18 Teoita wrote: This question isn't particularly simple, but still it doesn't warrant it's own thread so here goes: in PvZ i'm often able to deny/kill his third with void rays off forge expand or 1gate expand mc style; at this point i'm on 2 bases, have a good worker count (50+) and 5ish gateways, but not much tech other than the stargate, and i don't really know what my next step should be: taking a third vs a 2 base zerg really makes no sense, so i should probably opt for some kind of 2 base timing, but other than that i don't know what i should go for. Since i often go pretty heavy on the stargate units (3 voids and a few phoenixes) i usually force hydras, so colossus is the logical next step, but i'm unsure wether i can just go kill the zerg when i have 4 or so colossi, or take a delayed third and play a longer game. What should i look for to make the decision of allining vs taking another base? Yeah.. it's a very situational question but I think your first priority should be to chrono upgrades nonstop then units. I don't know how to answer because I don't know what your opponent will do. If he goes hydras then getting out a lot of collosii seems to be the hardest unit to deal with if I have roach hydra. If I went roach infestor then immortals and archons would be harder to deal with. If I went for ling infestor then storms. .. So yeah I don't know what to say. Sorry.
Why doesn't it make sense to take a 3rd vs 2 base zerg? Look at it this way. Your options are to either attack the zerg, or have the zerg attack you (otherwise you'll be at a humongous advantage playing 3 base p vs 2 base z). Would you rather attack on creep or have zerg attack you with your defender's advantage? Of course if you can make the kill then go for it. Or, after the zerg gets a nice force of hydras and is under control against your air harass, the zerg will take another 2 bases or so and you'll have to attack him. But generally it's much easier and safer to just take your 3rd.
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In PvP: 1) Why is it that a lot of players seem so reluctant to expand in this match up? Is it because 1 base play (e.g. 4 gate) is so prevalent? When is a good time to expand in PvP? 2) If I go defensive 4 gate (e.g. 2nd/3rd/4th gateway on 28 supply), when (and how) do I know it is safe that no 4 gate attack is coming (thinking of possible delayed 4 gates in addition to the normal 5:45 timing mark)?
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On August 04 2011 08:52 bankai wrote: In PvP: 1) Why is it that a lot of players seem so reluctant to expand in this match up? Is it because 1 base play (e.g. 4 gate) is so prevalent? When is a good time to expand in PvP? 2) If I go defensive 4 gate (e.g. 2nd/3rd/4th gateway on 28 supply), when (and how) do I know it is safe that no 4 gate attack is coming (thinking of possible delayed 4 gates in addition to the normal 5:45 timing mark)?
1) There's pretty much no defender's advantage in PvP due to warpgates. Since it's a mirror matchup every unit matters a lot. Throwing down a nexus means 4 less zealots, which can easily swing the battle in your opponent's favor.
2) I'd say you're safe as soon as your warp in your first round of units. If no attack is coming at like 6:00, send 2 or stalkers or so to scout out in front of your base (or watchtower, or even your opponent's base). Meanwhile you can continue making probes and start teching. If it does turn out to be a delayed 4 gate, just warp in as many sentries as needed and you should be able to hold it off (since now you should be on 2 gas). Your stalker scout should give you enough time to react and get out an initial sentry.
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Race: terran League: Platinum
So i have had a lot of problems lately against TOS players massing zealots + anything really (archons specialy) and i cant really see how i can counter build or engage him the best way without having my army destroyed so some questions.
Is there any unit that i should in general got more of to counter the zealots with?
A lot of people told me i should just get a lot of maruders and kite but an army with the same size as zealots vs m/m/m ball the zealots wins even with perfekt kiting, not to say that even with a ball big enough to kill him the distance/time i need to kite is huge O_O.
I tried some with hellions wich is in general a counter to bio units, 3+damage and blue flame they still req 5hits to kill (6without 3+damage) and that's a major amount of time for a hellion so i dont think it would be considerd a counter, not to say that the time to get a decent count of hellions and blue flame just to take out his 1pair of units wich if i manage to defeat his army he can go into stalkers without a problem leaving my hellions useless (maybe great for some harass but idk)
Anyone that know if going into hellions to counter this is a great option?
Also if someone have some replays to share to show me how it's done i would love it :D!
If anyone have replays i can check out on how to deal with this matter in a better way, feel free too share!
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I have 3 Zerg questions:
n. One:
Why do zergs have so many opening variations? Which ones are the most used/most eco/most 2rax early pressure counter?
Examples of zerg's billion openings:
12 pool 10 gas 13 pool 13 gas 13 pool 12 gas 14 pool 14 gas 14 pool 13 gas 15 pool 15 gas 15 pool 14 gas 14 gas 14 pool 14 gas 13 pool
n. Two:
What is the point of opening gas first?
n. Three:
How do i know if i have to make a 15 Overlord, 16 Overlord or 17 Overlord?
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How do you even open 12 pool 10 gas? Make a pool kill a drone?
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On August 04 2011 02:52 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 01:40 galtdunn wrote: My own question: what does "TLPD" stand for? I can't figure it out. I keep thinking it's TeamLiquid Police Department... Team Liquid Player Database. It's actually Team Liquid Progaming Database, as it has info on things like maps too.
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On August 04 2011 10:37 Probe1 wrote: How do you even open 12 pool 10 gas? Make a pool kill a drone?
I ment 12 pool 12 gas, sorry.
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Hi guys I am very new to the game having played about 10 games of starcraft in my life starting 3 days ago. I am really enjoying it and also enjoy all of the info I can read and find about on the web. But i have a pretty specific question that google cant seem to answer. I was wondering what the quickest way to warp in units is as protoss. It seems that clicking all the way across the map to my Gateway then back to my pylon then pressing Z/E/S to port something in isnt the fastest way. Is there a way to automatically select your Gateway so that I dont have to scroll all the way back to my base? Thanks guys!
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On August 04 2011 11:45 Trazati wrote: Hi guys I am very new to the game having played about 10 games of starcraft in my life starting 3 days ago. I am really enjoying it and also enjoy all of the info I can read and find about on the web. But i have a pretty specific question that google cant seem to answer. I was wondering what the quickest way to warp in units is as protoss. It seems that clicking all the way across the map to my Gateway then back to my pylon then pressing Z/E/S to port something in isnt the fastest way. Is there a way to automatically select your Gateway so that I dont have to scroll all the way back to my base? Thanks guys!
"W" is the hotkey to select all warpgates (if you have them upgraded from gateways) otherwise the only other thing to do is make a control group
to do so, hold control and press a number 1-0 on your keyboard while having the building/units you wanted selected
ex: I put my gateways on 5, so i'd hold ctrl and click 5 to lock them to "5" that means, whenever I click 5, it will automatically select my gateways/production buildings/units from anywhere on the map
hope that helps!
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On August 04 2011 10:27 DW-Unrec wrote: I have 3 Zerg questions:
n. One:
Why do zergs have so many opening variations? Which ones are the most used/most eco/most 2rax early pressure counter?
Examples of zerg's billion openings:
12 pool 10 gas 13 pool 13 gas 13 pool 12 gas 14 pool 14 gas 14 pool 13 gas 15 pool 15 gas 15 pool 14 gas 14 gas 14 pool 14 gas 13 pool
n. Two:
What is the point of opening gas first?
n. Three:
How do i know if i have to make a 15 Overlord, 16 Overlord or 17 Overlord?
Uh, just open one of the three standard ways and don't worry about the rest until you're very comfortable playing zerg. Just stick to 14gas14pool, 15hatch 14 pool or 11pool 18 hatch. The point of opening gas first, which afaik only applies to 14g14p is to get metabolic boost the second the spawning pool finishes with 100 gas.
15 OL is fine.
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i'm getting back into the game and i'm wondering what the state of the current strategies for tvx are? some specific questions I have are:
1. Is tvt still about tanks and positioning and air superiority? 2. Whats are the standard builds in all three races for terran?
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On August 04 2011 12:23 Malgrif wrote: i'm getting back into the game and i'm wondering what the state of the current strategies for tvx are? some specific questions I have are:
1. Is tvt still about tanks and positioning and air superiority? 2. Whats are the standard builds in all three races for terran?
TvZ- Marines Tanks and Medics. You'll note that More Zergs are using infestors. This totally can own a Terran. So alot of Terrans are going Mass Tanks and are lighter on the Marines Maybe add a Thor to make up for the lower marine count. I some times go 3 Fact Tank off of 2 Base if I see Infestor 1st. Some players like Ghosts, but really 1 FG can merc your marines so their kind of not that good.
TvT- Mech Mech Mech. It took Terrans 1 year to realize BFH kills Marines. Opening BF is standard since it crushes any MT timing. Heck even Thors are being used to bust tank lines.
TvP- Mass Ghost Maruader. Nothings changed much. People started using thors, but then BLizz nerfed them because they were to good against P. More people are starting to Mech our of frustration and having some success. But really Maruaders are so good against protoss, why not make them?
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