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zine
Germany67 Posts
On January 26 2011 05:48 misirlou wrote: whitera basicaly lost 2 iem finals games due to scv all ins (scrap+1 i dont remember the map) on scrap whitera did a 4 gate which is pretty much an all-in too. He failed with it and got punished. period. | ||
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MXG
United States5 Posts
The reason I'm posting this variation is because I wanted to show that this is such a solid opening that you can make various changes and still be in a great place. | ||
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zooalt
104 Posts
There you go: http://www.youtube.com/artosistv#p/u/8/d__kxkTd6RM | ||
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grandkai
Canada71 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
On January 26 2011 02:49 Vededrid wrote: This build is really weak it seems early game. Especially in lower leagues, most terrans do a bio push between 6-9 min, the later ones usually having a couple tanks with them. With this build you would not have the army to find off an early push like this. If you ff'd well and held him off through ff's you would still be contained to 1 base, while he is free to expo all over the map and get an economic advantage, since his eco was weakened early for the larger army to pressure the toss with. How could you transition out of a contain like that? over 75% of the time when a Terran does this to me, I win the game with an immortal bust | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On January 26 2011 07:36 MXG wrote: I have been using a similar build to great success, except I build my second assimilator around 19 or 20. The upside of this change is that I get a quicker sentry (I really enjoy the extra energy). The obvious downside of this variation is that the build no longer looks like a single-gas 4-gate, so the terran won't waste minerals prepping for the push. The reason I'm posting this variation is because I wanted to show that this is such a solid opening that you can make various changes and still be in a great place. a smart terran will look at your chronoboosts too, and will see your nexus chrono'ed instead of warpgate tech. So the 1 gas is not THAT much of a fake. (The terran might think 1 gate expo) | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
Problem with fast robo is it leaves you too weak... An observer can't fight. Immortals take 55 seconds to produce which is an eternity and are not cost effective units. Artosis really emphasizes ff play, but once terrain has scan, your ramp isn't that secure... Marauders have the same range as stalkers so if you are not using FF's to deny highground sight, they become very difficult to use effectively because the marauders simply trade fire with the stalkers through the FF's unless your placement is perfect. Throw in the fact that marines are ranged while zealots aren't and it is very difficult to pull off a sentry/immortal defense of a MM push if the terran properly uses his scans. My vote is the best defense is a good offense... Start with 4 gate and push out...with your attack you should be able to figure out their tech tree and be able to react accordingly. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On January 25 2011 04:59 Jakalo wrote: Those who watched Homestory cup #2 and IEM Kiev probably noticed white-Ra`s staple TvP build, which is in essence 1 gate robotics. As DeMuslim remarked it is incredibly versatile and safe against all popular Terran openings while leaving many paths to go thus making your opponents life harder. This is a rough build order 9 pylon 12 gate 14 Assimilator 18 Cybernetics Core Put 3 probes in the assimilator, build a zealot followed by a stalker after gate finishes. Start warpgate research as soon as Core is ready, chrono it. 26/27 Assimilator 28 Robotics Facility (or after scout leaves your base) You may start building Robotics even if scout is still in your base as it looks like a 4gate till then and making your opponent build bunkers/cut workers/guess is allways a good thing. In fact it was what White-Ra did in the third game in their series after DeMuslim, 4 gated on Jungle Basin after 2 times using his build. As I said, versatility is the biggest plus this build has. You are safe against cloaked banshees due to fast observer and you can scout and adapt accordingly due to it too. If you scout Terran taking one rax expand in his base you can safely expand after you add 2 gateways to your gate/Robo (as your observer reaches terran base as in game on Xel Naga caverns against Cloud) or before you add 2 gates if Terran expands outside his base as TLO on Shakuras Plateau and you manage to scout it. Generally you want to add 2 gates after your Robo to not to die and add Robotics Bay after that. Rushing to Collossus is not a good idea which used to be main thing people used to do after 1gate Robo. Or you can bust terran when you are about 2/3 Immortals as in his game against Demuslim on Xel Naga Caverns. Or do some mix of both if terran tries to go cheap. One thing I noticed was he didnt do it on Jungle basin doing 4gate and a 2gate expand instead. (Also in replaypack) Probably there is some kind of inherent weakness of this build on that map or he just likes to switch it up. Also he lost both times while doing it on Scrap Station due to hellion drop/Thor push and Marine drop/hellion incursion. (in Homestory cup #2) So a short air distance is a weakness due to medivacs but I can see it working on ladder if terrans are going fast banshees thus exposing themselves to both bust and making huge investment into cloak which is not gonna pay off due to fast observers. probably why Ra did it. (also I remember him winning games on Scrap Station with beautiful Warp Prism Harrass so short air distance has advantages too) Discuss! Replay pack (from ESL homepage) This is not the build order. I studied his build really hardcore and have taken it as my own now. The second gas goes down right after the robo, followed by a gateway and a pylon. You have to go zealot/stalker/zealot/zealot. These are the units you drop. You add third gateway with the next money after you start your warp prism. Also dont start your first zealot until you have money to, if you did the build correctly and gateway scouted this will be when you are at 19 probes. The second gas goes down at ~30 food normally unless he scouts something indicating he will have to abandon the build. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
http://rapidshare.com/files/448010475/PvT_Whitera_build.SC2Replay | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 14 2011 06:16 Jayrod wrote: This is not the build order. I studied his build really hardcore and have taken it as my own now. The second gas goes down right after the robo, followed by a gateway and a pylon. You have to go zealot/stalker/zealot/zealot. These are the units you drop. You add third gateway with the next money after you start your warp prism. Also dont start your first zealot until you have money to, if you did the build correctly and gateway scouted this will be when you are at 19 probes. The second gas goes down at ~30 food normally unless he scouts something indicating he will have to abandon the build. I'm curious as to the logic behind the late gas. 3 zealots + 1 stalker does not seem safer vs early aggression than say 2 zealots + stalker + sentry. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
1) You get an extra gateway up alot sooner by delaying the gas so you can have 3 warp ins as your WP gets near their base. The most important thing to the build is how fast you actually get the warp prism. The map in the replay is actually not a great map for it because theres no ramp or point for sentries to wall off and its very very large. An expansion build would be much more suitable for the map. The replay was just to show the exact BO whitera uses. On the maps where its most effecitve, like scrap and close air Meta/LT there isnt a threat of a counterattack because they will lose their economy and zealots are too hearty to just clean up with a couple of units. Additionally once your warpgates convert you will have the gas for 2 sentries or a sentry and an immortal. Moreover, you CB an observer after the warp prism comes out to send down the attack path. It will let you know if you should bring the prism back as well though its probably still not necessary with the sentries you can warp in back home. 2) You can expand behind the drop. You wont want to be mining from 2 gases and expanding that early as you'll be stuck with only sentries. You need the extra mineral income to afford the nexus and transition into the mid-game. Sometimes you'll see whitera try to tech and expand at the same time (as he did vs strelok), but this also fails sometimes. Its really risky to expand and tech obviously, but whitera gets away with doing both sometimes because of the drop harass being so effective. I would imagine as people get used to playing against it, the expanding + teching will stop working for him altogether. Ive tried getting the gas earlier and then adding a sentry to the drop as ive seen whitera do this to use GS. Its really strong, but the drop is delayed substantially. 90% of the time he gets his 2nd gas after dropping the robo and im guessing he feels its worth it to get the WP out faster in most cases. While I was dissecting his builds a few weeks ago I was reviewing a match against TLO on scrap station where TLO spawned terran. In it, Whitera had a zealot at 50% complete on his gateway and his robo was warping in. He was only at about 80 minerals when it started warping in, so he cancelled the zealot he had at 50% and started the warp prism instead. It was telling to me as to just how important it is to get that drop down fast to keep them in their base or force them to head home or lose everything. Ironically he GG'd TLO with the drop with just 6 units because TLO was preparing a thor drop and didnt have enough to defend. The different combinations for the drop ive seen are 3 zealots 1 sentry (whitera), 3 zealot 1 stalker (whitera), 2 zealot 2 stalker (adelscott). Of the three I've tried all. The whitera variations feel alot more damaging as stalkers arent great against workers. Zealots are so hearty that I really like having 3. The sentry is good if you can get it to 75 energy before the drop, but it delays the drop a bit to build one (about 30 seconds). In all the combinations, there's no need to get the second gas sooner unless you plan on investing in Tech instead of expanding. I personally prefer to expand behind a drop unless they kill my drop ship and the odds of that happening this early in the game should be roughly zero. If they did rush to 1 viking fast for some reason (why would they?) as part of some elaborate anti-whitera opener, they wont have what they need to punish an expansion anyways. If they fast expo'd you're golden, your drop will work great unless you toss it away and you can expand even more safely. Keep the WP alive and they wont be attacking you any time soon. In his interview from winning a TSL TL open a couple weeks ago. + Show Spoiler + Duckload.White-Ra: I wanted to make something new. I wanted to show that not just Terrans can make drops in more than one place, and I want to show that you can use warp prism for harass or scout and puts you in good position even if you do not kill many SCVs. If you do not break Terran midgame economy you are in bad position, they are always ahead in minerals and marauder medivac marine is very strong. Even if you build colossus Terran just makes two starport and vikings, then it is too hard. I remember using this strategy against Maka and Fenix in Blizzcon, and I will use it in the future, but not always because then Terrans will always prepare for it Try all the variations for yourself though, they are viable, but the timings are different. Practicing this playstyle has really increased my overall understanding of the matchup. | ||
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HQuality
2682 Posts
p/s comments on Russian | ||
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Sarchasm
South Africa64 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 14 2011 06:10 Fungal Growth wrote: In regards to the Artosis video, I'm not sure that was a solid defense against an aggressive terran. In that video the terran does banshee harass first then follows it up with MM. Had the terrain just omitted the banshee tech and spammed MM with an earlier timing attack, I think Artosis would not have been able to defend that. Even if say the terrain had grouped the banshee with the MM's, I think Artosis would have been toast (why don't more terran's do this?). Problem with fast robo is it leaves you too weak... An observer can't fight. Immortals take 55 seconds to produce which is an eternity and are not cost effective units. Artosis really emphasizes ff play, but once terrain has scan, your ramp isn't that secure... Marauders have the same range as stalkers so if you are not using FF's to deny highground sight, they become very difficult to use effectively because the marauders simply trade fire with the stalkers through the FF's unless your placement is perfect. Throw in the fact that marines are ranged while zealots aren't and it is very difficult to pull off a sentry/immortal defense of a MM push if the terran properly uses his scans. My vote is the best defense is a good offense... Start with 4 gate and push out...with your attack you should be able to figure out their tech tree and be able to react accordingly. Protoss has chrono-boost. You're not supposed to be spending it all on probes if you suspect aggression. Same thing as making drones when you're supposed to make roaches. Also, terran doesn't have infinite scans, and if he was preparing for this attack with the scans than that's very clever. It's gonna take some time for him to know. Also, his army will be somewhat smaller because he won't be able to constantly produce if he's not using Mules. The immortal has enough time to come out unless you don't chrono-boost him and you don't know what forcefield is. Just forcefield it and move away. You make it sound like Scans > Forcefield. If that was it than all protoss would be dead. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
On February 15 2011 17:29 HQuality wrote: Here's Ra's explanation of his 1gate>robo>2gate>expand build and how to defence MM+tanks (+raven if t is really good) push with that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhVwlgDooBs p/s comments on Russian any trad ? :D | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
On February 15 2011 22:35 iChau wrote: You can't chrono that much on zealot/stalker/sentries... The first few go to probes, the rest on warp gate research and by then you don't have much left for military units. Even if you did focus on warp gates it only gets you about (when you factor in energy recharge time) 40% for one building which isn't that much. Also how do you know you are facing aggression? The gap between the scouting probe and the first observer is very problematic. Protoss has chrono-boost. You're not supposed to be spending it all on probes if you suspect aggression. Same thing as making drones when you're supposed to make roaches. Also, terran doesn't have infinite scans, and if he was preparing for this attack with the scans than that's very clever. It's gonna take some time for him to know. Also, his army will be somewhat smaller because he won't be able to constantly produce if he's not using Mules. They don't need to fully utilize those scans because they probably won't have enough racks to fully utilize these extra resources.The immortal has enough time to come out unless you don't chrono-boost him and you don't know what forcefield is. Just forcefield it and move away. Immortals are somewhat overrated vs racks units. Marines are a cost effective answer and marauders almost match immortals on a 1v1 cost basis.You make it sound like Scans > Forcefield. Four purposes for forcefields... Denying high ground sight which is huge...blocking/pushing melee units, countering kiting, and reducing an enemy's ranged arc area. Once terran has high ground sight (scan/mule/medivac/banshee/etc...) the first is worthless. The second is worthless because terran don't have melee threats. The third is of some value but not a huge amount since all their units will still engage. The forth is very difficult to pull off because stalkers and marauders have the same range, so your forcefields have to push the marauders out of range, then your stalkers have to back up to form a perfect counter arc, while your zealots just stand around doing nothing. It's very tricky...If that was it than all protoss would be dead. | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On February 14 2011 06:10 Fungal Growth wrote: In regards to the Artosis video, I'm not sure that was a solid defense against an aggressive terran. In that video the terran does banshee harass first then follows it up with MM. Had the terrain just omitted the banshee tech and spammed MM with an earlier timing attack, I think Artosis would not have been able to defend that. Even if say the terrain had grouped the banshee with the MM's, I think Artosis would have been toast (why don't more terran's do this?). I that case I think you're capable of just perma FFing your ramp until you get Colossus out. | ||
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