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On January 12 2011 06:17 Raggydiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 05:40 Agh wrote:On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late. Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations. as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker). The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T. If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo. It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.) It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios. The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers. It's still possible to hold this push if you pull probes. Good forcefields and control will beat this push due to lack of infantry due to raven + marauder combo. If he brings more than 9+ scvs then I would say no.
It's not possible to hold. 5+ scvs are all T needs to bring but in reality it is better to bring more.
To those saying get charge or phoenix, you can't. It's simply wasted money in tech. You'd at most have 2 phoenix out which wouldn't do anything since banshees over marines are protected and phoenixes are easily focused, not to mention PDD eating shots + potential repair.
I've humored myself before by bringing every single probe from main and natural and you are still unable to defend it. It just comes at a timing where any P standard FE build cannot compete with dps of stimmed bio + banshees.
Push comes right before 9mins.
If you seriously want to try to defend it as soon as your obs sees it build a forge and start making pure sentry until you start your 3 cannons (Ideally more if opponent is committed purely to 1base)
You don't want any stalkers. (They are not even 1 dps higher than sentries to non-armored which he will only have 3-4 marauders, you will have more damage done from forcing stim with potential forcefield wall delays, and the mitigation from guaranteed guardian shield cannot be undervalued.)
Regardless with this you're approaching unrealistic scenarios.
again please note that I am referring to bio with stim with a raven into 2 banshees.
The rough T build order is: rines from naked rax into fact, 2nd gas after fact. reactor on first rax gas permitting. port right after factory finishes, techlab on factory halfway to give to port. Raven out asap followed by two banshees. Getting your 2nd rax as soon as minerals permit[can start it during port afaik], can start a 2nd tech lab on your fact for it to swap, get stim on that lab asap, with and start trickling out marauders. You continue your reactor marine production this entire time.
Scout or attempt bait units out of position with your attack with the factory as desired (it's actually better/more annoying to keep it alive with your push).
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edit: ahh I just realized that the person above me said pretty much the same thing...but in a much much more specific manor. sorry for the bad english.
1 gate fast expand is still very strong against marine banshee raven timing push..the key is to scout the push
most of the time a bunker is a big indicator for banshee play, so your reaction should be robo+forge.
at this point the terran could either harrass with cloak banshees or save up the 200/200 cost for a big timing push.
if you see a timing push coming simply lay down 4-5 cannons at ur natural and make alot of sentries for cutting off marines.
its a really simple counter I don't understand why so many protoss are having troble with it.
just remeber cannons>stalkers
have fun winning 
oh btw im 2300 Master's League
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On January 12 2011 16:11 Kizu wrote:edit: ahh I just realized that the person above me said pretty much the same thing...but in a much much more specific manor. sorry for the bad english. 1 gate fast expand is still very strong against marine banshee raven timing push..the key is to scout the push most of the time a bunker is a big indicator for banshee play, so your reaction should be robo+forge. at this point the terran could either harrass with cloak banshees or save up the 200/200 cost for a big timing push. if you see a timing push coming simply lay down 4-5 cannons at ur natural and make alot of sentries for cutting off marines. its a really simple counter I don't understand why so many protoss are having troble with it. just remeber cannons>stalkers have fun winning oh btw im 2300 Master's League
what happens when terran sees you put cannons and just double expands?
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On January 12 2011 11:27 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 06:17 Raggydiaper wrote:On January 12 2011 05:40 Agh wrote:On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late. Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations. as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker). The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T. If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo. It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.) It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios. The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers. It's still possible to hold this push if you pull probes. Good forcefields and control will beat this push due to lack of infantry due to raven + marauder combo. If he brings more than 9+ scvs then I would say no. It's not possible to hold. 5+ scvs are all T needs to bring but in reality it is better to bring more. To those saying get charge or phoenix, you can't. It's simply wasted money in tech. You'd at most have 2 phoenix out which wouldn't do anything since banshees over marines are protected and phoenixes are easily focused, not to mention PDD eating shots + potential repair. I've humored myself before by bringing every single probe from main and natural and you are still unable to defend it. It just comes at a timing where any P standard FE build cannot compete with dps of stimmed bio + banshees. Push comes right before 9mins. If you seriously want to try to defend it as soon as your obs sees it build a forge and start making pure sentry until you start your 3 cannons (Ideally more if opponent is committed purely to 1base) You don't want any stalkers. (They are not even 1 dps higher than sentries to non-armored which he will only have 3-4 marauders, you will have more damage done from forcing stim with potential forcefield wall delays, and the mitigation from guaranteed guardian shield cannot be undervalued.) Regardless with this you're approaching unrealistic scenarios. again please note that I am referring to bio with stim with a raven into 2 banshees. The rough T build order is: rines from naked rax into fact, 2nd gas after fact. reactor on first rax gas permitting. port right after factory finishes, techlab on factory halfway to give to port. Raven out asap followed by two banshees. Getting your 2nd rax as soon as minerals permit[can start it during port afaik], can start a 2nd tech lab on your fact for it to swap, get stim on that lab asap, with and start trickling out marauders. You continue your reactor marine production this entire time. Scout or attempt bait units out of position with your attack with the factory as desired (it's actually better/more annoying to keep it alive with your push).
I agree, it's completely impossible to hold. If there's no scvs, perhaps it's possible, though unlikely on blizz maps with their 2 second rush distance. With scvs, there isn't a chance, no matter how good your FFs are.
I do want to know if it's possible to get a colossus or two by the timing of the attack. Colossi are the 1 base answer to this T build, so I would figure if you can get them by this timing it might still be possible to hold.
Of course the trick is scouting it. Multirax will wreck you if you don't respond with 3 more gates after expo. There's scouting to be done, but it's unfortunately pretty hard to scout sometimes.
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On January 12 2011 16:23 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 16:11 Kizu wrote:edit: ahh I just realized that the person above me said pretty much the same thing...but in a much much more specific manor. sorry for the bad english. 1 gate fast expand is still very strong against marine banshee raven timing push..the key is to scout the push most of the time a bunker is a big indicator for banshee play, so your reaction should be robo+forge. at this point the terran could either harrass with cloak banshees or save up the 200/200 cost for a big timing push. if you see a timing push coming simply lay down 4-5 cannons at ur natural and make alot of sentries for cutting off marines. its a really simple counter I don't understand why so many protoss are having troble with it. just remeber cannons>stalkers have fun winning oh btw im 2300 Master's League what happens when terran sees you put cannons and just double expands?
The Terran can't afford to double expand. If they're timing misses they are already behind. If they double expand you can just kill them after a few minutes, because they'll either have sacked 800 minerals, or had sacked 800 minerals + the cost of any SCVs they bought minus the income the SCVs gather (assuming it's been spent) by the time you hit.
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So vs 1-2 starport, 3+ canons then phoenix is the correct answer ?
i saw sanZenith hold this push 3 times in a row at GSL#2.
And what about factory-sp variation like Siege tank+banshie/raven marins ?
Are phoenix the key ?
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You can only have two pheonix by the time the attack hits. If he's heavily committed to one base you'll want even more cannons. You want pure sentries and cannons Agh said.
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Before you make cannons, have your obs make sure his factory doesn't have a tech lab attached.
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On January 13 2011 04:18 iamke55 wrote:
Before you make cannons, have your obs make sure his factory doesn't have a tech lab attached.
You could scout this and he could swap his factory and port a second later
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On January 13 2011 04:26 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 04:18 iamke55 wrote:
Before you make cannons, have your obs make sure his factory doesn't have a tech lab attached. You could scout this and he could swap his factory and port a second later
That's why you leave the observer above the factory to know when the attached building has been swapped.
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What about using a warp prism instead of an observer? Warp prisms outrun unstimmed marine, and cost no vespene, and also act as a pin against the Terran in the event he leaves his base.
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On January 12 2011 03:26 tehemperorer wrote:
Against Terran I don't expect to expand any time in the beginning because 90% of the time you will get crap like this. I mostly do 2 gate pressure to 3gate stargate (VRs) before I expand in this matchup. I don't find this Terran strategy to be too effective against myself, and actually like the PvT matchup the best.
If you engage them in a choke you will win that fight even if you have 1 sentry because you just kill all the marines with mostly zealot/VR, and just run your gate army back to your base, letting the VRs clean everything else up. Good luck.
Tips: I put a probe either on a xel naga or far close to their base so I can see when they are coming. On any map, moving forward with just VRs to exploit the terrain and get safe shots off at the marines is the best thing to do. I have sometimes sent the Terran back to his base with VRs alone because of how I was able to use land pathing against him, combined with the VRs range advantage on the marine.
I have considered doing a 3 Gate stargate opening too but worried that without the Robo, i cant get an observer (and its hard to scout T without the observer).
If you build a stargate in your opener, do you research hallucinate instead to scout?? Or you attack the front to scout? How do you deal with cloaked banshees if u go straight to phoenix?
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On January 13 2011 08:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:26 tehemperorer wrote:
Against Terran I don't expect to expand any time in the beginning because 90% of the time you will get crap like this. I mostly do 2 gate pressure to 3gate stargate (VRs) before I expand in this matchup. I don't find this Terran strategy to be too effective against myself, and actually like the PvT matchup the best.
If you engage them in a choke you will win that fight even if you have 1 sentry because you just kill all the marines with mostly zealot/VR, and just run your gate army back to your base, letting the VRs clean everything else up. Good luck.
Tips: I put a probe either on a xel naga or far close to their base so I can see when they are coming. On any map, moving forward with just VRs to exploit the terrain and get safe shots off at the marines is the best thing to do. I have sometimes sent the Terran back to his base with VRs alone because of how I was able to use land pathing against him, combined with the VRs range advantage on the marine.
I have considered doing a 3 Gate stargate opening too but worried that without the Robo, i cant get an observer (and its hard to scout T without the observer). If you build a stargate in your opener, do you research hallucinate instead to scout?? Or you attack the front to scout? How do you deal with cloaked banshees if u go straight to phoenix?
You don't, so I would recommend killing the Terran before cloak can come out. Perhaps you could also snipe the tech lab off the Starport. From my experience the 3 gate Starport or two gate Starport are more allin builds than anything.
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On January 12 2011 05:14 Raggydiaper wrote:
3100 Protoss here.
I 80% do a FE and hold this push with 5 gates, all zealots, one sentry, 4-5 stalkers. After dropping down your two gates + robo after FE and by the time you get your obs to his base you should see the raven. Drop down two more gates asap, Try to get 16 probes for the minerals, have two gas, and go only zealots. Chronoboost your gate ways. I tend to have 1-4 sentries, if you have a larger amount of sentries focuss the pdd, if you have 1-2, just guardian shield FF.
If he brings a ton of scvs, prepare to lose your FE, you won't be able to hold this push if he brings 10+ scvs with good control on his part. If he just uses his units, forcefield behind ALL the marines, don't cut in half.
If you go 3 gate expand into one robo, more stalker sentry heavy, you have to go colossus to kill the marines. Focus on boosting our the colossus and range upgrade and focus on your macro before the big battle to up him in supply. If he brings scvs against your army try to dance around or get the jump on him first and FF properly. You'll need a bit of stalkers 8+ to soak the dmg, don't only go sentry, stalker, colossi.
This sounded like the most reasonable response on this thread that I have heard.
I've got a few things to say about the other replies and this thread in general, as I actually posted a similar thread a few days ago.
First: There seems to be some confusion on the timing of this build. This push comes at the 11 min mark, not 9.
Second: People are always saying chargelot + pheonix and +1 armor. Haha, yeah sure, that would be nice, but goodluck getting getting all this tech by 11 mins and still having enough units to counter this
Third: Be more specific about how to counter this. So many of you just say chargelot / pheonix and gg. Are you on one base or two? What kind of build order are you doing? Replays?
The above strat with the 1 gate FE or the 3 gate expand seems the most reasonable to me, but the problem I have with it is that you run the risk of sacking your expo. That seems dumb to me. I honestly think you're better off punishing the Terran for trying to go early tech and putting pressure on him in the early game instead of scrambling to defend this all-in push on 2 bases.
When on 2 bases, getting charge is totally not feasible. It takes too long not to mention people suggesting +1 armor. I could possibly see a 1 base play with some pheonix and +1 armor being feasible, but if you're going to 1 base, why not just put pressure on the terran in the first place?
So, I believe the discussion here is about defending the POLT build on 2 base. Can we please limit responses to a detailed strat including initial BO and reasonable tech considering that this push comes at the 11 min mark.
I have thought a lot about this build, and IMO I'm beginning to think that a shift in PvT is essential. I think it is necessary to put more pressure on terran early game and expand behind the pressure as opposed to FE and scrambling to get the units/tech necessary by the 11 min mark to defend this push.
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On January 13 2011 08:07 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:03 bankai wrote:On January 12 2011 03:26 tehemperorer wrote:
Against Terran I don't expect to expand any time in the beginning because 90% of the time you will get crap like this. I mostly do 2 gate pressure to 3gate stargate (VRs) before I expand in this matchup. I don't find this Terran strategy to be too effective against myself, and actually like the PvT matchup the best.
If you engage them in a choke you will win that fight even if you have 1 sentry because you just kill all the marines with mostly zealot/VR, and just run your gate army back to your base, letting the VRs clean everything else up. Good luck.
Tips: I put a probe either on a xel naga or far close to their base so I can see when they are coming. On any map, moving forward with just VRs to exploit the terrain and get safe shots off at the marines is the best thing to do. I have sometimes sent the Terran back to his base with VRs alone because of how I was able to use land pathing against him, combined with the VRs range advantage on the marine.
I have considered doing a 3 Gate stargate opening too but worried that without the Robo, i cant get an observer (and its hard to scout T without the observer). If you build a stargate in your opener, do you research hallucinate instead to scout?? Or you attack the front to scout? How do you deal with cloaked banshees if u go straight to phoenix? You don't, so I would recommend killing the Terran before cloak can come out. Perhaps you could also snipe the tech lab off the Starport. From my experience the 3 gate Starport or two gate Starport are more allin builds than anything.
I have no idea why you believe a 3-gate + stargate is all-in. Your push with your first 1-2 voids + stalkers will hit before cloak is done and if they continue to train banshees you will kill him outright. If he holds your push and you saw a tech lab on a starport or suspect cloak banshees you can just toss a robo then and still be safe because he will be scrambling to defend your push. You also expand while this push is happening if you see he was teching and it too will be completely safe. If he still tries to harass with his banshees you now already have access to its counter, the phoenix.
3-gate stargate is an incredibly potent, aggressive and safe build vs many of the popular T openers in PvT at the moment. 1-gate FE is in my mind is just a defensive "counter" to T's 1-rax FE, but 3-gate stargate does great vs 1-rax FE since it is so aggressive, while still being able to punish tech builds. I believe all this banshee play is a direct result of too much passive play from protoss nowadays believing a bunker or 2 above their ramp is some indestructable fortress.
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I just meant I've seen more stargate allins lately than not (on ladder). It was pretty off-topic though so it shouldn't have been added.
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1 gate FE holds this off handily. Remember he's on one base, so if you see a 1 base timing push, feel free to pull your own from your natural.
If you see him pull his SCVs, pull probes from your main too.
All you gotta do is survive, then you win. Applaud yourself according to how you see fit
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On January 13 2011 10:31 Barca wrote:
1 gate FE holds this off handily. Remember he's on one base, so if you see a 1 base timing push, feel free to pull your own from your natural.
If you see him pull his SCVs, pull probes from your main too.
All you gotta do is survive, then you win. Applaud yourself according to how you see fit
Didn't you read what Agh said? I'm more inclined to trust him than someone I haven't heard of with no credentials or sources.
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On January 13 2011 10:49 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:31 Barca wrote:
1 gate FE holds this off handily. Remember he's on one base, so if you see a 1 base timing push, feel free to pull your own from your natural.
If you see him pull his SCVs, pull probes from your main too.
All you gotta do is survive, then you win. Applaud yourself according to how you see fit Didn't you read what Agh said? I'm more inclined to trust him than someone I haven't heard of with no credentials or sources.
I see what he said and I disagree completely. I'm masters league 2100, and my best matchup is PvT.
You can ignore my help if you'd like since you've "heard" of Agh, that's totally cool. I actually see where you're coming from, but I advise you to just hear me out.
Basically what you want to do is 1 gate FE, scout with stalker/zealot. If you see bunker and/or only marines, throw down a robo and 3 more gates, take the other gas in your main. Go observer first, scout his main. Find a tech lab on a starport? Get a Stargate and one more gateway, pump out 2-3 phoenix and 1 void ray. From this point on, only make zealots from your gateways (with at least 4-5 sentries to force field) and then wait for him to come. Pull probes when he comes (if you feel you need too, although most often i do not) and then attack with 2-3 phoenix, 1 void, 2-3 stalkers, 12-13 zeals, and 4-5 sentries. Push comes at 9-10 minutes on most maps, yes?
The problem if you put down cannons is that if he sees them and BACKS OFF AND EXPANDS you are incredibly behind, on 1 base, and with no tech. Or worse, he backs off from your front and contains you, and you can't break out because you spent so much money on cannons.
So be my guest, go ahead and do what Agh says, but I disagree wholeheartedly because if he doesn't attack you will be in a much worse situation. If he doesn't attack into your FE you have a tech and an extra base on him.
But hey, you've never heard of me and I have no credentials, right? 
The cool thing about Protoss is that everyone has their own style. Just find the one that fits you best, and you will do just fine.
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On January 13 2011 13:31 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:49 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 13 2011 10:31 Barca wrote:
1 gate FE holds this off handily. Remember he's on one base, so if you see a 1 base timing push, feel free to pull your own from your natural.
If you see him pull his SCVs, pull probes from your main too.
All you gotta do is survive, then you win. Applaud yourself according to how you see fit Didn't you read what Agh said? I'm more inclined to trust him than someone I haven't heard of with no credentials or sources. I'm masters league 2100... 2-3 phoenix, 1 void... push comes out 9-10 minutes on most maps? The problem if you put down cannons is that if he sees them and BACKS OFF AND EXPANDS you are incredibly behind, on 1 base, and with no tech. Or worse, he backs off from your front and contains you, and you can't break out because you spent so much money on cannons. So be my guest, go ahead and do what Agh says, but I disagree wholeheartedly because if he doesn't attack you will be in a much worse situation. If he doesn't attack into your FE you have a tech and an extra base on him.
You can't get out more than two pheonix without heavily cutting into gateway production. I'm much higher than you in Master's without even laddering in Master's. If he backs off and expands you'll be ahead... How would you be much worse off? You didn't even seem to consider the possibility of him pulling scvs as well. What would a single voidray do vs stimmed marines anyways? You shouldn't read through the topic and tag on to the end of a claim "push comes out 9-10 minutes" just to make it look like you know what you're talking about. The push easily comes a little before that.
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EPT
