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I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late.
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Against Terran I don't expect to expand any time in the beginning because 90% of the time you will get crap like this. I mostly do 2 gate pressure to 3gate stargate (VRs) before I expand in this matchup. I don't find this Terran strategy to be too effective against myself, and actually like the PvT matchup the best.
If you engage them in a choke you will win that fight even if you have 1 sentry because you just kill all the marines with mostly zealot/VR, and just run your gate army back to your base, letting the VRs clean everything else up. Good luck.
Tips: I put a probe either on a xel naga or far close to their base so I can see when they are coming. On any map, moving forward with just VRs to exploit the terrain and get safe shots off at the marines is the best thing to do. I have sometimes sent the Terran back to his base with VRs alone because of how I was able to use land pathing against him, combined with the VRs range advantage on the marine.
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chargelot pheonix my man. rapes banshee raven marine everytime. now with the patch, the 3-4 banshee 1 raven 20 marine timing push at 9-10 min is even easier to beat. make sure you get an early obs in his base and once you see taht initial raven or banshee coming out and a handful of marines, you know its time to go stargate and twilight since you still have plenty of time to prepare
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hmm im a 2600 terran who does this build often. i dont lose often with this, but when i do, its usually because the toss had a more zealot heavy army, and if they cut my army with forcefields. guardian shields would also help a lot. pheonix would be good too if you can react fast enough-which might be easier in 1.2.
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On January 12 2011 03:31 pakman wrote:
chargelot pheonix my man. rapes banshee raven marine everytime. now with the patch, the 3-4 banshee 1 raven 20 marine timing push at 9-10 min is even easier to beat. make sure you get an early obs in his base and once you see taht initial raven or banshee coming out and a handful of marines, you know its time to go stargate and twilight since you still have plenty of time to prepare
I'm not sold on the idea of having a robo bay, early observer, stargate, twilight council, zealot charge, a few phoenixes, and a sizeable gateway army all at 9-10 minutes.
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well it works. i havent lost to 1 base banshee marine timing in ages. charge is optional. just icing on the cake
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On January 12 2011 03:33 b0urne420 wrote:
hmm im a 2600 terran who does this build often. i dont lose often with this, but when i do, its usually because the toss had a more zealot heavy army, and if they cut my army with forcefields. guardian shields would also help a lot. pheonix would be good too if you can react fast enough-which might be easier in 1.2.
I actually think this is a good response from the toss. Although by the time you find out what the Terran is doing (pre-1.2) it's really hard to get more than two phoenix out. Chargelots can also come out late and are a huge investment. I think without chargelots is optimal, as the vespene could be better spent on sentries. If you FF the marines, the zealots will get there anyways. A couple more guardian shields should be more useful than charge.
On January 12 2011 03:31 pakman wrote:
chargelot pheonix my man. rapes banshee raven marine everytime. now with the patch, the 3-4 banshee 1 raven 20 marine timing push at 9-10 min is even easier to beat. make sure you get an early obs in his base and once you see taht initial raven or banshee coming out and a handful of marines, you know its time to go stargate and twilight since you still have plenty of time to prepare
I don't know about that. Chargelots take a long time to get, and if you are reacting and don't have much chronoboost it's really risky banking on having it in time. Also I don't want to go with one base play, I believe there is an optimal response that involves having a natural with 18 on the mineral line. I just don't know what it is.
EDIT: Also, often times there will be 4-6 banshees, and if I'm zealot heavy I must also have an answer to the banshee. I'm thinking pheonix will take care of that if the marines can be taken care of. Does anyone have any thoughts about +1 ground armour?
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I don't play Protoss much but I played against a Terran who was 3k+ diamond terran and he did this build. I did 1 gate FE and built forge. I saw his bunker so I knew he was going to do something like this. So I made some cannons (maybe 3 or 4) and then started making more 3 more gateways add stalkers and some zealots. You don't really need sentries since yea.. If you can hold the push then I mean you have the game already since Terran is so behind.
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Mmm... A bunker could mean anything. It could mean he just wanted a bunker to make it look like he's going for a one base oriented build.
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Im a 2500 Toss player and have the same problems stoping this build. They scan my army and see that ive got way less then them and bring half their scv to atack too. You cant really have air out in time and still have a ground army to deal with 20 marines... I cant seem to find an army composition that stops a strong timing of this build either. The only way ive held it is if i havnt expanded yet, but the terran is expanding in his base behind his atack so your already behind in macro no matter who wins the battle.
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3100 Protoss here.
I 80% do a FE and hold this push with 5 gates, all zealots, one sentry, 4-5 stalkers. After dropping down your two gates + robo after FE and by the time you get your obs to his base you should see the raven. Drop down two more gates asap, Try to get 16 probes for the minerals, have two gas, and go only zealots. Chronoboost your gate ways. I tend to have 1-4 sentries, if you have a larger amount of sentries focuss the pdd, if you have 1-2, just guardian shield FF.
If he brings a ton of scvs, prepare to lose your FE, you won't be able to hold this push if he brings 10+ scvs with good control on his part. If he just uses his units, forcefield behind ALL the marines, don't cut in half.
If you go 3 gate expand into one robo, more stalker sentry heavy, you have to go colossus to kill the marines. Focus on boosting our the colossus and range upgrade and focus on your macro before the big battle to up him in supply. If he brings scvs against your army try to dance around or get the jump on him first and FF properly. You'll need a bit of stalkers 8+ to soak the dmg, don't only go sentry, stalker, colossi.
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On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late.
Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations.
as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker).
The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T.
If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo.
It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.)
It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios.
The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers.
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On January 12 2011 05:40 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late. Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations. as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker). The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T. If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo. It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.) It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios. The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers.
It's still possible to hold this push if you pull probes. Good forcefields and control will beat this push due to lack of infantry due to raven + marauder combo.
If he brings more than 9+ scvs then I would say no.
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On January 12 2011 05:40 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late. Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations. as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker). The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T. If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo. It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.) It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios. The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers.
Yeah I left it a little vague because I have trouble with a bunch of variations of it. I've lost to just marines and banshees without stim, a raven with banshees + stim.
Thanks for the tip on 1 Gate FE vs 3 Gate FE. Would you prefer 1 Gate FE or 3 Gate FE on close positions on Lost Temple and Delta Quadrant?
Does that siege tank with siege variation include ravens and banshees in the mix, or just marines and siege tanks? I've fought vs siege tanks and marines before and usually go for colossus + gateway units. Is that what you would do as well?
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Are you asking how to defend it if you 1-gate FE, because like people stated above if they pull SCVs IMO it is not possible to save your expo. If they just use units and do the earliest raven/marine/banshee push possible, your best bet is just mass gateway units because your tech won't pay for itself by the time the push hits.
If you are 1-basing then I would "defend" it by going stargate for phoenixes and zealot heavy with enough sentries to have guardian shield up constantly (you have to take into account banshees focus firing your sentries), later teching to colossi after the initial push. I say "defend" because honestly if you are 1-basing you should be the aggressor vs T so you can see what he is up to and then react accordingly. So many Terrans in the high 2K diamond range rely waaaaaaay too much on a bunker or 2 on their ramp like it's some impenatrable fortress. A stargate opener to bust ramps or an immortal timing push (or even 4-gate) can break a lot of the wacky things we're seeing in PvT as of late because of what I can only assume is some very passive protoss play in general early on.
If you did open stargate Phoenixes are nice since you can do a lot of annoying things to this build such as sniping the raven (which delays the push substantially) or banshees. They are also great if they delay their push for tanks. Also I'm not sure about other people's experiences but I've found most of the time FF'ing behind the marines is pointless since they usually don't try to kite your zealots since they will be marine-heavy and they don't want to stray from their banshee/PDD support.
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I think Agh answered my question pretty dead on. Though I'd really like to see a replay of the situation where the toss goes for a 1 gate FE, and the Terran timing attacks with scvs marines a raven and banshees. Agh said 2 banshees. You say get a few cannons, but what about your unit composition? Does it matter so much? Would pheonixes be of good use?
Also, I'd like to ask about preferences on when to 3 gate FE or 1 gate depending on spawns. Like, on LT on close positions is it really risky to 1 gate FE? Or how about close positions on Delta Quadrant?
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Its easy to stop this, the problem is most of the time you cant see it coming until its too late. If he places the bunker on the ramp it could be anything, including cloaked banshees or this allin. The best BO for me was 1 Gate FE into Robo for observer until this allin became popular.
Problem 1: If you send your first obs as soon as it comes out he could very well be on his way to your base with cloaked banshees (timing is about the same), nothing worse than having your obs in his base and start seeing your probes dying in your base. You have to leave the first obs or send it when the second is half-way done, at which point it might be too late. However if he is not going cloaked banshee and is in fact going for that all-in it leaves you in a really crappy position, it will be almost impossible to get collo out in time and if you do its pretty easy to snipe down.
So the next option is 1 gate FE into 5 gates. Of course if he goes cloak banshee you are also in a crappy position. Its a risky build that could get you killed, if he is in fact going for the allin you can destroy him easily.
Therefore my answer is to put a lot of pressure early. You are actually chronoing your gates and not our nexus, so you should have plenty of units to put enough pressure to at least SEE what is going on, at which point you can adapt correctly, if he is going for this allin you can totally bust him before he gets his banshees out.
1 Gate FE into 3 gate >pressure to see whats going on> adapt into robo/5 gate/starport.
Another tip is to make him engage and drop the pdd outside your base if he is going for this.
Best overall combo for me was zealot/phoenix/sentry but because i knew he was going for this build.
- I've seen a T go for this build w/o getting a reactor on his rax, so it could be a giveaway of him doing this build. He had the rax on the ramp though, thats why I spotted it, putting a bunker down wont let you see a thing.
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Chargelots and phoenix's are great... The real key is getting them to burn PDD is they have a raven, you will not want to be fighting him with a PDD down in the area or choke.. so see if you can engage him so that he drops it.
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On January 12 2011 06:21 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 05:40 Agh wrote:On January 12 2011 03:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm having trouble against Terran one base play. I used to one gate FE every game and I could almost hold a marine raven banshee push (about 50/50), now I've been trying out three gate FE much more. I've tried mixing in some pheonix, voidrays, and I just don't know how to stop this timing attack. Templar are too slow to be of use.
I'm 2800 diamond, so I don't really want advice from anyone unless they know how to defeat a well executed marine/banshee timing attack from a one base Terran as Protoss.
I have replays to share, but I'd rather not as I know I didn't do whatever I needed to properly. I just would like some specific advice on combating a specific timing attack. Perhaps if someone knows of a pro-replay of a Protoss fending off this timing attack, that would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find any as of late. Your description is pretty vague, there are very specific variations. as for 1gate FE vs 3gate, it depends on spawns largely, but assuming its not steppes etc, there is no reason not to 1gate fe (throwing down nexus after stalker). The 'stim bio(marine/marauder) raven 2 banshee' (with >5 SCVs) push is not defendable by any standard 1gate FE. (You will not be able to keep your nexus, if you try to defend you will lose the game). It's just not mathematically possible for P to defend, and micro only skews it further towards T. If you are able to scout it cannons are the best attempt at a proper response but you are still more than likely going to have to sac expo. It's really not that big of a hit as long as you don't engage and lose units or probes (and also didn't invest too much in pylons/production/tech around your expo that will die.) It's the unfortunate reality of the build but that's all i can really tell you unless you want to give specific scenarios. The same push but with siege instead of stim is actually more difficult but much harder for T to execute, and leaves you contained with tanks and bunkers. Yeah I left it a little vague because I have trouble with a bunch of variations of it. I've lost to just marines and banshees without stim, a raven with banshees + stim. Thanks for the tip on 1 Gate FE vs 3 Gate FE. Would you prefer 1 Gate FE or 3 Gate FE on close positions on Lost Temple and Delta Quadrant? Does that siege tank with siege variation include ravens and banshees in the mix, or just marines and siege tanks? I've fought vs siege tanks and marines before and usually go for colossus + gateway units. Is that what you would do as well?
1 gate fe >
i do it on every single map and position except delta. and i have delta checked off wuhahahahaha
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On January 12 2011 04:21 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:33 b0urne420 wrote:
hmm im a 2600 terran who does this build often. i dont lose often with this, but when i do, its usually because the toss had a more zealot heavy army, and if they cut my army with forcefields. guardian shields would also help a lot. pheonix would be good too if you can react fast enough-which might be easier in 1.2. I actually think this is a good response from the toss. Although by the time you find out what the Terran is doing (pre-1.2) it's really hard to get more than two phoenix out. Chargelots can also come out late and are a huge investment. I think without chargelots is optimal, as the vespene could be better spent on sentries. If you FF the marines, the zealots will get there anyways. A couple more guardian shields should be more useful than charge. Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:31 pakman wrote:
chargelot pheonix my man. rapes banshee raven marine everytime. now with the patch, the 3-4 banshee 1 raven 20 marine timing push at 9-10 min is even easier to beat. make sure you get an early obs in his base and once you see taht initial raven or banshee coming out and a handful of marines, you know its time to go stargate and twilight since you still have plenty of time to prepare I don't know about that. Chargelots take a long time to get, and if you are reacting and don't have much chronoboost it's really risky banking on having it in time. Also I don't want to go with one base play, I believe there is an optimal response that involves having a natural with 18 on the mineral line. I just don't know what it is. EDIT: Also, often times there will be 4-6 banshees, and if I'm zealot heavy I must also have an answer to the banshee. I'm thinking pheonix will take care of that if the marines can be taken care of. Does anyone have any thoughts about +1 ground armour?
+1 armor zealots + sentries work. A 3:1 ratio, of course.
You need phoenixes, though. This IS feasible if you 1 gate fe. My +1 armor usually comes at the 8 minutes to the 10 minutes mark where pushes usually come, so my zealots are ever so strong with their shiny +2 armor.
Zealot + sentry + phoenix is possible, and you don't NEED a lot of phoenixes. 2 can clear out the "optimal" amount of banshees of the polt push. If marines focus fire, move them back, and the zealots get free shots. You actually need 4 gases, iirc, though, to support the sentries + phoenix + upgrades.
You can place a cannon at the natural choke if you feel unsafe.
So:
Zealots 0 gas
Sentries 100 gas (Only need 1 per 3 zealots)
Phoenixes 100 gas (You only need 2)
+1 Armor 100 gas (Only 1)
Observers 100 gas (1-2)
Robo Bay 100 gas
Stargate 150 gas
Also, while your zealot + double stalkers are pressuring (1 gate FE), you should actually have a stock pile of gas (400-600) since you're using all your minerals to expand and throw up gateways.
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EPT
