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Edit: While I think that I did put a lot of good information in this post and it is useful, I have since reconsidered exactly how this is of value. When it comes down to it you do need to learn to value your errors more harshly in SC2. However attempting to give food benchmarks at any given time interval will only help slightly in valuing your errors but you still need to know how to learn what to look for.
I still am considering developing a resource for the very beginner on how to improve their mechanics, however I am starting to think that the approach should be slightly different.
The idea I have in my head is more of a gathering of different macro exercises with general benchmarks to help illustrate each of the "basic" rules of macro that are commonly identified.
Edit 2: If you want to see my arguments against this type of guide you can read my comments in this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191745
Arisen has captured more different build benchmarks here, you can see my arguements against getting stuck in a benchmark mind frame in that post.
Introduction
This guide is intended to gather information to clarify the what "just macro and you can get to diamond" to help a new player better understand the costs of "small" mistakes. The intent is to utilize speed builds with timing benchmarks to help beginning players understand what they could have.
Some of the builds listed here will be considered all-in at higher level of play but are very viable and able to be transitioned out of at lower levels quite easily. The intent is to have solid econ builds that will help the beginner progress with a "measurable window" for self analysis.
Of course unit mix could be different, these are strategy issues and I hope to avoid them in the interest of focusing on macro and valuing errors. The idea is to have a generally balanced army that would be viable in most match-ups.
If I can gather enough information here and if there is enough general interest I will spend the time to add this to the Liquipedia page and cross link it to existing articles as appropriate.
My use of the word “optimal” is what can be done by a player, not a machine. Also, since this is a beginner guide and focused on simple econ I would like to avoid cutting workers or production to optimize.
Ultimately, for the build orders and food counts listed I would like to gather a replay for each one and then I will write down the specific build order from the replay so there is strong correlation of information.
Being a beginner myself I am looking to the TL community to help fill both information in this guide and to correct errors and help fill in omissions
Initial Goals – Bronze/Silver
We have to start somewhere with macro, so I have chosen 1-base. This will help people to sort out the fundamentals like using hotkeys and constantly building workers and units and to learn to start properly valuing their mistakes.
For the beginners please understand doing just this well is not good macro. It is just the start of it. Good macro will continue on to multiple bases, this will give you some sense of how much units you can have to defend those bases making the concept of expansion more comfortable.
The build orders listed here are not to be confused with game strategy. They are chosen because they are somewhat common on the ladder and so therefore your practice will have some benefit in game. The most important point of this exercise, is to give you feedback on how efficient your macro is. The viability of them in game is up to you to determine. Even Zerg needs to be able to measure what they are doing, be it off of one base or two or three. So we will try and balance worker and unit production at 7-minutes for all three races.
1-base 7-minute unit counts for the following builds:
Terran + Show Spoiler +3-rax 2tech, 1reactor55/59 food consisting of 25SCVs, 10 marauders, 10 marines Build Order + Show Spoiler + 10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery > 3 in gas at completion 15 Orbital Command 15 Marine 16 Supply Depot 17 Barracks [2] > Reactor immediately after Barracks Completion > Produce only Marines 17 Tech lab on Barracks [1] > Produce only Marauders 19 Barracks [3] > Tech lab immediately after Barracks Completion > Produce only Marauders 24 Supply Depot
At this point continue producing w/o queuing units, the Supply Depots will need to be built after you start production of each round of units, you should barely have enough money to build them. 2 marauder, 2 marines and 2SCV = 8 food = 1 Supply Depot
At 6:15 you should have 100 minerals and 100gas to start stimpack
At 6:45 you should have 50 minerals and 50 gas to start concusive
Replay + Show Spoiler +3-rax 52 foodYou can see small mistakes cost units here: 1st supply depot worker arrives about 15 minerals early Forgot to put guys on gas as refinery finishes 2nd and 3rd rax about 15-20 minerals late Result 6 marauder, 9 marines and 26 SCVs on the ground at 7 minutes with a full cycle in production 1-1-1, reactor barracks, tech lab factory46/51 food consisting of 26SCVs, 10marines, 2siege tanks, 2medivacs Build Order + Show Spoiler + 10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks > no add-on till extra gas with tanks and medivacs in production 13 Refinery > 3 in gas at completion 15 Orbital Command 15 Marine 16 Supply Depot 20 Factory > Tech lab at completion > produce only siege tanks 21 Supply Depot 25 Starport > no add on produce only medivacs
Start siege tech after first round of siege tank and medivac is started Produce only marines from first barracks
Replay + Show Spoiler +1-1-1 46 foodI am sure this can be optimized quite a bit more some mistakes: Forgot to put guys in first gas immediately Tech lab on Factory was late Siege Tech researched before starting first tank These probably cost me 1 tank and 1 medivac on the ground with production started on another pair. Result 26SCVs, 9 marines, 1 tank, 1 medivac on the ground at 7 min with another round in production.
Protoss + Show Spoiler +4-gatexx/xx food consisting of ? Probes, ? Zealot, ?Stalker, ?Sentry Build Order + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
3-gate, roboxx/xx food consisting of ? Probes, ? Zealot, ?Stalker, ?Sentry, ?Observer/?Immortal Build Order + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Zerg + Show Spoiler +The first build for zerg is currently the most "standard" build for zerg given the macro mechanic of larvae inject and the reactionary nature of the race. In order to give a benchmark the build will drone till the last minute possible then produce enough units by 7-minutes to hold the pushes listed so far in this guide. 14hatch, 14 poolxx/xx food consisting of ? Drones, 2queens, ?sling, ?bling Build Order + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
The community at large has the consensus that one-base zerg is a very large mistake. I agree with them. However if you are new to the game and need a macro benchmark for 1-basing, I will do my best to give it to you here. Be warned that as you progress past Bronze and Silver you will most likely have to spend a significant amount of time re-learning your race. sling / blingxx/xx food consisting of ? Drones, 1 queen, ?sling, ?bling Build Order + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
sling/roach (I am not sure if this is the best second 1-base build for zerg) xx/xx food consisting of ? Drones, ?roach, ?sling Build Order + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Valuing Common Macro Mistakes on 1-base
If you are practicing these builds, you will quickly see the level of efficiency of your play by stopping the game at 7-minutes and comparing your food count to the optimal. If you get only 35 food and the optimal is 55 food then you are 35/55*100=64% Efficient
So now watch your replay and make note of the following mistakes: + Show Spoiler + Queuing a worker more than 80% completion of previous worker Starting a worker 1-5 seconds late Starting a worker 5 or more seconds late Starting a production building 25-50 minerals late Starting a production building 50-150 minerals late Getting supply blocked for less than 5 seconds Getting hard supply blocked (meaning you start your next supply when you are at food cap) Having more than 8-10 extra supply for unit production Missing larva inject/mule/chrono by 5-10 seconds Missing larva inject/mule/chrono by a full cycle Forgetting to put workers in gas Missing unit production by 1-5 seconds Missing unit production by 5 or more seconds
You should start to notice some general things about mistakes. Each short duration mistake should cost you 2-3 food @ 7-minutes. Each longer duration mistake will cost you 5-8 (or more) food or more at 7-minutes.
Tips for better Macro Efficency – Bronze/Silver
There are a million out there and it is all preference, but if you don’t know where you want to start at least do these things or your own variation of them:
+ Show Spoiler + Rally your hatchery/cc/nexus to center minerals
Set your hatchery/cc/nexus to Control group 4 -Only make workers by pressing 4s/4sd/4e depending on your race
Set your Barracks/Warpgates to Control Group 5 -Only make units by pressing 5aadd/5zzss for terran and protoss -Only make units by pressing 4szzzzzz for zerg
Zerg set your Queen to Control Group 5 -Only use your macro mechanic by pressing 4e [click]/4c [click]/5v [click]
Add all of your units to Control Group 1 after each production cycle
Shift click workers back to minerals after you start each production building
Attempt to send a worker slightly early to build a building so that he arrives just as you have the minerals to start that building
Practice cycling through your hotkeys to watch production 114511451145 over and over again, do it slowly at first, there is no need to go fast yet, you will be macroing while watching your army this way. When you need to build a unit you would just insert that hotkey in the cycle. 114s51145aa11451145114s…
When adding a barracks or gateway, click on it right after you shift click the worker and press shift + 5 to add it to that control group. Then press 5 and right click the top of your ramp to rally units there.
When you need to build supply press 44, click a worker press bd [click] [shift+click minerals]/be [click] [shift+click minerals]
Will this win me games in Bronze/Silver
I can only give the experience of myself and my good friend. We were both Terran and we both did the 3-rax build at about 80% efficiency. For each of us we won more than 3 out of 4 games against bonze opponents. We did rally our barracks to our attacking force to seal the win.
Typically the 1 in 4 losses was to a cheese we did not know how to defend or that threw us off our game too much.
More importantly than winning here with a “all-in” it gave each of us more confidence to be able to expand.
Against silver players with 80% efficiency this build was slightly better than 50/50. The complete lack of tech was starting to show as a weakness against some silver players.
Expanding your understanding of Macro by Expanding – Silver/Gold
Now that you have enough units that you can hold an early push it is time to practice the macro of expanding. Building on the 1-base play the goal here is to start getting a expansion between 7-8 minutes and may require skipping a unit production cycle to have enough minerals if you are really efficient at your 1-base macro. If you are still having slip ups, most likely at this point you will have the spare 300/400 minerals to expand at 7-8 minutes anyway.
The build orders listed here are more of a framework or plan of when to add buildings as the minerals and gas will allow as long as you have a full production cycle of units in progress.
These speed build numbers will have virtually no correlation to ingame numbers because there will be any number of attacks, harasses, etc. that will change the food counts. The idea is to get a feel for what you can optimally have off 2-bases to check your own efficency.
If a speed build maxes supply before 13 minutes on a speed build I will edit and note the time that max supply happens.
2-base 13-minute unit counts for the following builds:
Terran + Show Spoiler +3-rax 2tech, 1reactor, expanding to 4-1-2xx/xx food consisting of ?SCVs, ? marauders, ? marines, siege tanks, ?medivacs 1/1 ground unit upgrades Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Start CC @ 400 minerals as your attack is moving out Get second gas @ 70 minerals when you have constant unit production Add factory @150 gas Add Eng Bay Add Starport at factory completion Add second Starport
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
1-1-1, reactor barracks, tech lab factory, expanding to 4-1-2xx/xx food consisting of 25SCVs, ?marines, ?marauders, ?siege tanks, ?medivacs Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Protoss + Show Spoiler +4-gate, expanding to 4-gate, robo, stargatexx/xx food consisting of ? Probes, ? Zealot, ?Stalker, ?Sentry, ?Observer, ?Immortal Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
3-gate, robo expanding to 4-gate, robo, stargatexx/xx food consisting of ? Probes, ? Zealot, ?Stalker, ?Sentry, ?Observer, ?Immortal Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Zerg + Show Spoiler +sling / bling expanding to add mutaxx/xx food consisting of ? Drones, ?sling, ?bling, ?muta Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
roach/ling expanding to roach/ling/hydra (I am not sure if this is the best second 1-base build for zerg) xx/xx food consisting of ? Drones, ?lings ?roach, ?hydra Build Order Additions + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Replay + Show Spoiler + Forthcoming – I will use my silver level macro to add each reply and build order if I don’t get help, perhaps then others will chime in and contribute more optimized builds
Tips for better Macro Efficency – Silver/Gold
After your expansion it is easiest to judge your macro by your minerals and gas. Everything here is more or less optimized (or someday should be) for constant production on 2-base but slip ups happen and in game and in practice here is what you should do:
+ Show Spoiler + Extra minerals when you have a full unit production cycle Build an extra barracks or two or three for more marines Build an extra gateway or two or three for more zealots Build an extra hatchery and queen in base for more slings Note at the end of the build time what the mistakes cost you in food, this lets you keep spending your money but also see what it cost your in food compared to optimum
Extra gas when you have a full unit production cycle Get an upgrade or two or three, most of these builds should be gas bound, so go back an look at what big mistake happened to allow the extra gas.
Will this win me games in Silver/Gold
Again I can only speak for me and my buddy, but doing the 1-base play at 90% efficiency and the two base play at 70-80% efficiency had me winning against silver players 3 out of 4 games.
Against gold players, since I have only started poking at the ramp instead of the full 7-minute attack it has been winning quite a bit. Since we are just starting to face them, I don’t want to give a win rate till I have some more information. It is still feeling very strong though. The 2-base push feels massively strong when you don’t lose the initial 7-minute army.
Third base and Beyond – Gold/Platinum The primary advice I have here is to start taking your third as you move out with the attack at 13-minutes or so. This will replace the minerals lost by your original base starting to mine out and continue to keep you at your solid two base production
Expanding roughly every 7-minutes thereafter will allow you to continue to have full production off of two bases
What is next? Hopefully you now have a sense of what it is possible to produce off of multiple bases
Hopefully now you see more value in what may have appeared to be small mistakes and have more motivation to fix them.
Hopefully now you understand what “smooth” macro is and have been enjoying winning more than losing and a promotion or two
Now it is time to take what you learned here and apply it to all the build orders and strategies are out there and play them more optimally to continue to progress up the ladder.
You should see that expanding is good and safe and want to start doing it earlier than listed here, experiment, watch replays have fun with it and have the confidence that you will have the most units possible when you expand no matter what timing you choose. If you die try expanding later vs that strat next time or add more static defense.
You have the framework for controlling the game and optimizing a build now. Now you can actually spend your time learning some strategy and becoming a more efficient macro player.
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wow, thank you for this. It is always great to see help for low level players =]
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If you're in silver or whatnot you obviously dont' have the most optimized build so I don't understand what you have posted? Are these the most opitmized possible builds or are you asking people to fill in the blanks?
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I have a feeling you don't play zerg
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On January 08 2011 05:43 thurst0n wrote: If you're in silver or whatnot you obviously dont' have the most optimized build so I don't understand what you have posted? Are these the most optimized possible builds or are you asking people to fill in the blanks?
I will post initial builds orders and replays. I will also post the errors I know that I made in those builds. If someone can do it much better after that then great. I would love to have them give that replay and I will take out the build order and update the main post.
I tried to pick 2 builds per race to set up benchmarks for that would be moderately viable for use on the ladder if you were mostly efficient with your macro. I may not have done the best job, but there is somewhat a consensus that in the lower leagues, you can build anything you want as long as you do it well then go win pretty easily.
The goal is not to give a winning strat only to give a reasonable build that you can practice and measure against an optimized number to have feedback on optimized macro. However, if you did want to ladder with it, I wanted to pick something reasonable.
The problem I am trying to solve is that I did not understand the value of errors in the early game and by the sheer number of many other low level players here posting, they do not either.
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I can 14hatch 15pool against the Hard AI and drone till just before they leave their base for the fist attack, defend push and win off of that start. I know this is nothing to brag about, but at least I can put up something that will be reasonable to be criticized.
For the macro measure here on 1-base, I was considering doing something like http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Pool_Baneling and http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Roach
I realize that my zerg macro portions will most likely need the most feedback to be good.
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There is a enormous gap in understanding how to get better at macro, that in my opinion is not simply explained by the following that is constantly regurgitated by the community and popular casters:
1. Never get supply blocked 2. Always make workers 3. Constantly produce out of your facilities 3. Keep your money low
To a beginner "Never" a lot of times means well it was only 1-hard block my macro really isn't that bad and they justify this in their head because there is no benchmark for them to know how many units they could have had. So instead to keep money low they Build an extra production building they can't use, an Upgrade building they can't use, a second gas they can't use and say there, my money is low, my macro is good. Why am I still losing.
To a beginner "Always" means that if I am 3-5 seconds late that is ok because I am still always making them. Then they are keeping their money low and not getting supply blocked but every thing is late. So again they have less food than they should in a certain window.
To a beginner "Constantly" means if I forget for 3-5 seconds or miss a cycle when attacking but it does not cost me that much. Why can't I win. Because a missed cycle on 1-base cost them 8-food at 7-minutes.
All of these feed into themselves that errors compound so much and if you don't have somewhere to start with a benchmark you are going to continue to come here and make threads about "How do I beat xyz craizyness in Bronze" and you will continue to see 3 pages of just macro better and you will get to diamond.
I am making my best effort to put a resource out there to minimize this cycle.
If my replays are garbage and no one else sees the value of making better ones to help me out then the worst thing that happens is I have wasted my time and this thread is closed or fades to oblivion. Hopefully, my effort is seen as substantial enough that I don't get warned or temp banned.
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Personally I don't think you should include a 1 base Zerg build. It is too weak. especially considering lower level players do not expand at decent times, or frequently enough.
It would be better if you just added a 14 gas 14 pool into 21 Hatch.
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If you're going to worry about Zerg optimzation, I'd take a slightly different approach, and do a build designed to fast expand and then hold off a 3 rax or 4 gate. If you're pushing at 7 minutes for T/P a Zerg build that has the necessary units to hold that push would be a good place to start. From personal experience, this is a great place to learn as Zerg.
On the subject of the 3 rax, you may want to try one of the build optimizers that's floating around, I think there's one out there for Terran. 10 marines 10 marauders with stim and conc is a pretty good benchmark, so stick with that. I'll post some more feedback soon
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@lobotomist and Exstasy - I agree and understand. Let me ask this before I start to make a change.
The key portion of zerg macro is larvae inject right? So by giving a 1-base build it is easier to see how much a larvae inject cost you each time you miss one at a given time right?
The cost of macro errors in terms of units was my first intent, with "viability" being second. The thing I don't know is can you spend all your money in the first 7-minutes as zerg off of only one hatch. If you can, then I would like to keep it simple first. If you can't then I will happily change to a second hatch build.
Simply put, why try and learn to macro off of two bases if you can't do it on one.
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I just wanted to say awesome post. I absolutely love the idea of having solid benchmarks to see how well your doing at the fundamentals. Ideally every build order post would come with a time/food benchmark of how to know if you're doing it well.
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Simply put, why try and learn to macro off of two bases if you can't do it on one.
Because one basing zerg against anything other than zerg will almost always equal a loss. It also instills bad habits in the newb zerg, its better that they get rolled repeatedly on a <20 hatch then learn to turtle on one and play like terran or toss.
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Unfortunately, no one can be..."taught" how to play zerg. The heuristics for how to not die to different kinds of 1base attacks are more complicated and take experience to get the hang of.
The "builds" are 14 hatch 14 pool against Terran, 14 pool expand as soon as opponent allows (but before 20 food) against protoss, and 14pool against zerg. After that though, it gets weird. Terran and Protoss can just mass up a big attack to kill an opponent if their macro is superior, Zerg often can't, and even if they can, it's a bad habit to develop to try the "just go kill him" thing as zerg until you're 100% sure you've got him.
Honestly, it's my opinion that no matter how you go about it, you're not doing yourself any favors by playing zerg with a goal of getting to diamond, because unless you have a lot of natural ability, it's going to take a while and a lot of losses to learn to play zerg the "right" way. It is NOT easy to get to diamond as zerg with standard play if you don't have a natural knack for it, and didn't play BW or have a lot of experience with WC3 or whatever.
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Nice contribution to the community! Nice work and thanks!
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From personal experience, I "coached" a brand new player to the game for 3-4 hours online.
He 14 hatches all his games with a 65% win ratio in bronze atm and his confidence is sky high, even when he loses its because its something he's never seen before.
so, rather than teach "safe" teach "proper" builds, its not that one is intrinsically harder than the other, once your low level guy knows to use an overlord for vision at his expo to spot pylons etc all goes well.
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this is an excellent guide and the way brand new players should be helped and coached. the ubiquitous "just 3 rax your way to diamond" gives the ladder its glut of players stuck in high plat or low diamond who plateau and then don't have the skillset to continue to improve. they don't understand the basic mechanics of the game.
bravo.
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On January 08 2011 08:38 ProtossGirl wrote: From personal experience, I "coached" a brand new player to the game for 3-4 hours online.
He 14 hatches all his games with a 65% win ratio in bronze atm and his confidence is sky high, even when he loses its because its something he's never seen before.
so, rather than teach "safe" teach "proper" builds, its not that one is intrinsically harder than the other, once your low level guy knows to use an overlord for vision at his expo to spot pylons etc all goes well.
14hatch isn't really "proper" against protoss though... any scrub can lay down a cannon behind your nat minerals and easily make your life hell =/
Oh, I forgot to say in my initial reply that in spite of the problem I mentioned, I really appreciate this thread in response to all the threads raging against the "just learn to macro" advice.
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Just a thought I would like to put out there about the general zerg basics: often times it pays off to build drones instead of attacking units when your opponent is not yet ready to make an attack. Postponing an army production results in better economy when it comes to later stages of the game. Obviously though you need to make sure you won't die from an incoming attack in the first place.
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@hammerwing - The thing about benchmarks past a certain level is they are limiting. After Platinum you need to start learning to scout and adapt because macro will be getting better. Also you need to learn to use your units constantly to try and give an advantage, it is why you don't see high diamond or pros just sitting in their bases making stuff. They are constantly using strategy for calculated risks.
So a static benchmark for anyone past Gold or maybe Platinum is useless because you will never see that number of food army at that time. It is only helpful to us scrubs who don't really understand what good macro is.
@ all the zerg advice - I see this will be the toughest part of sorting this all out. I really do understand the 14hatch 14 pool idea and starting them off on the right foot. I will work out some replays and post them in the guide and then take more feedback from there. I wanted to stick with 1-base standards first before moving on to expo's but I see this is perhaps too far from how zerg should play on an econ build.
I will try and work through all the one base builds this weekend and start getting some replays, build orders and prelim food number up.
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Of course, the tricky thing about applying this methodology to zerg is that there's no direct equivalent of the 2 basic macro rules for the other races:
1) Always build workers. 2) Constantly produce out of your production facilities.
Since one cannot achieve both as zerg, macro inherently relies more on observing and responding to the opponent's play.
Nonetheless, this is a very nice idea, and well executed for terran and protoss.
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On January 08 2011 06:00 eth3n wrote: I have a feeling you don't play zerg
hahahha very funny cuz i felt the same way reading the OP. any one base zerg build is NOT a macro build!!!
i would add 14 pool 16 hatch, a 14 pool 15 gas 21 hatch and a hatch first build.
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You seem to have put a lot of effort into your research, but if you actually had a complete understanding of these topics, I don't know how you would be in the lower leagues. The best advice is what you have said you intend to do: play more games. You can only learn so much through reading. You may have a perfect strategy, but if your mechanics are not solid, you cannot execute it. I just got back to the game after taking a 2-month break, and I'm playing several hundred points below the level of my account, even though I've continued to watch GSL and hang around TL. Go practice.
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Great Effort, but a quick question, making workers is great, but assuming your opponent is a mega turtle and hands map control to you on a silver platter: about how many workers as a protoss will you be able to make and still not have it impact your army size/strength. I am personally thinking enough to saturate 2 blues and a gold, but what do you think?
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I find this guide very helpful. This is also my first post. I'm mid-silver, and yet my macro slips up, a lot.
When your opponent is turtling and hands map control to you, I would say just starve him out. By the time you have multiple bases and he's turtling in his one (wait outside his base), and you have a army superior to him, just attack. You can easily remake your army because of your expansions and income; he can't, because he's just on one base.
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I must be in the wrong league, I'm Diamond and this was very useful!
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cool effort, thanks!
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On January 08 2011 11:53 Eeryck wrote: @hammerwing - The thing about benchmarks past a certain level is they are limiting. After Platinum you need to start learning to scout and adapt because macro will be getting better. Also you need to learn to use your units constantly to try and give an advantage, it is why you don't see high diamond or pros just sitting in their bases making stuff. They are constantly using strategy for calculated risks.
So a static benchmark for anyone past Gold or maybe Platinum is useless because you will never see that number of food army at that time. It is only helpful to us scrubs who don't really understand what good macro is.
@ all the zerg advice - I see this will be the toughest part of sorting this all out. I really do understand the 14hatch 14 pool idea and starting them off on the right foot. I will work out some replays and post them in the guide and then take more feedback from there. I wanted to stick with 1-base standards first before moving on to expo's but I see this is perhaps too far from how zerg should play on an econ build.
I will try and work through all the one base builds this weekend and start getting some replays, build orders and prelim food number up.
There is a very big reason most zerg are proponents of learning 2 base play immediately. As Terran and Protoss the easiest way to transition your 1 base play into 2 base play is by eliminating 1 unit producing structure and using those extra resources to expand. Because of larvae mechanics zerg can't get away with this. If you build an army off 1 base except a little smaller then expand, you are exponentially hurting your economy compared to Protoss and Terran. There is no such thing as a slow expansion in ZvT or ZvP. You either do tons of damage with 1 base play that cripples your opponent or you expand as fast as you can. Learning to 1 base Zerg has no long term potential for teaching you how to play a macro game as Zerg. Doing it this way almost feels like learning 2 different races. And it teaches you bad habits like wanting to build too many units just to "feel safe" before droning.
In my 2 weeks of playing Zerg (lol, I know) I feel like larvae management, constant larvae injects, and not getting supply stuck are more important than blindly trying to "keep your money low" like Terran and Protoss. A good example is if you are going for mutalisks you want to stockpile 500+ gas before your spire finishes to immediately get 5-7 mutas. At no point in the early and mid game as Terran or Protoss do you ever want to consciously stockpile that much gas.
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I second (third? fourth?) the concerns regarding one-base zerg play. 'Standard' zerg play starts with two bases, and with good reason: you need two bases (or at least two hatches, which might as well be bases) in order to cope with one base T/P aggression AND T/P economic play, whichever they decide to go for.
Also, I don't know as it's possible to have useful Zerg benchmarks, given the nigh infinite spectrum of econ / unit production possibilities. An example to illustrate: I was recently stomped in a custom game by a rank 2 diamond protoss who forge fast expanded into a +1+1 six-gate. After the match I went through the replay noting down timings and then set about seeing what I COULD have done. Turns out that at the point he had 10 stalkers, a zealot, two sentries and a half built immortal I could have rammed THIRTY FIVE roaches down his throat, had I properly scouted what he was doing, known a decent response, and focused on economy and units at the right time. That's me, with silver-level mechanics. With the exception of ZvZ and cheesey all-ins, at least half of learning to play Zerg seems to be learning how other people play T and P.
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great OP, i think its important for you to clarify in the OP though that the builds are not important per-see, that they are a means of contrast between potential benchmarks and current skill level, i think a few people are confusing that point.
--EDIT--
After reading a few more replies i have to pipe in with my opinion about the zerg point. One base play is only ever really viable if you have scouted some super greedy build early on (vs t/p) and you know you can punish them safely, even then its more often than not an all in. Quite often vZ is more classed a 'delayed expand' than 1 base play aswell.
Zerg mechanics tend to be quite different than T/P in allot of respects. I only ever play Zerg and have done from day 1 and i've come to the understanding that FEing is a must for 99% of matchups (bar most ZvZ)
be that as it may i've found 30 drones to be an optimal number to hard press to early game, then its mainly just a matter of keeping cap up and pumping lings till early-mid/mid when roaches come out, dropping 2/3 drones into the larva round each time along with 2 OVs (off 2 base). When i discovered this my w/l ratio shot right up, i win 4/5 games since reaching this brainwave. I've taken a build from a coaching session, I'll post it here as it represents imo an important macro fundemental to zerg.
9 OV 14 pool 16 hatch 15 OV 15 Queen - (2nd inject as tumor, make 2nd queen near 1st pop, send 2nd to nat) @ Nat pop 2x lings + spine at nat, maynard 5 drones 21 gas 24 OV 30 OV - Stop hard droneing, pump lings + 2/3x drones + 2x OV a round - (@ 30 drones at each base stop droneing all together, keep up 2x OV a round) @ 100 gas Ling Speed + drop second gas @ 100 gas (2nd time) lair @ 20% lair drop warren + 2 gas at nat @ roach warren - Roach speed + Burrow (warren and lair should pop at the same time if done right) - Pump roaches @ Speed finish - Be agressive with roaches, Take 3rd + 2 gas there, Drop Hydra Den. @ Hydra Den - Hydra Range - Pump Hydra (aim for 50/50 army comp roach/hydra) @ 3rd pop - Maynard 3 drones from each base, set drone rally to 3rd and hard pump drones till 3rd is saturated + 2x gas at 3rd + Queen for 3rd + take 4th @ Gas pop - 2x evo @ 4th pop - (same as third) @evo - range/armor 1/1 + drop spire (for corruptors(Blords)/muta for harass soon) @ 1/1 - 2/2 + Festor pit (in time for 2/2 complete to go into 3/3 straight away)
@ 200/200 ATTACK!
works like a charm.
hope its of help
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This was a great post and got me back to looking at my macro. It's easy to let unit or worker production slip and not notice. I hope people add food count estimates for BOs other than 3rax.
I want to point out the flip side of what people have said about blindly shooting for army targets using build orders vs. getting a broader understanding of the game. In the lower levels you can win games by expanding earlier, controlling an uncontested map, understanding what the counters are, scouting, etc. But it's easy against 1-base or 2-base turtlers to let your macro slip. As people have pointed out, once you get at least to high bronze/silver there are a lot of hardcore 1-basers who have their build order down and try to come kill you off of one base. If their macro was at 75% efficiency and you were at 60, so you floated minerals and built an EBay or a CC, you are going to die. Keeping track of your army size at the 7 minute mark is a great way to double-check your macro. Just reading this thread pushed me up from 65-70% efficiency to 80-85%.
TL/DR; yes, understanding broader concepts than macro is important, but if you don't macro well, all that understanding may be meaningless against all the high bronze-through-low diamond players who have a set build order down to a tee.
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This is the funny thing about macro... it is essential, yes. But poor scouting, a misclick, poor unit control, poor composition, poor positioning, and general poor decision making can cost you games against opponents who macro worse than you. So while I think this topic is good, macro alone should not be too overly emphasised as the key to getting better in this game. Its all just practice. And its no good just playing games, you have to TRY to get better. People get frustrated because they play 50 games and see no improvement... you need to stop making the same mistakes.
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On January 11 2011 11:55 LtLolburger wrote: This is the funny thing about macro... it is essential, yes. But poor scouting, a misclick, poor unit control, poor composition, poor positioning, and general poor decision making can cost you games against opponents who macro worse than you. So while I think this topic is good, macro alone should not be too overly emphasised as the key to getting better in this game. Its all just practice. And its no good just playing games, you have to TRY to get better. People get frustrated because they play 50 games and see no improvement... you need to stop making the same mistakes.
While this is true in a general, is DRASTICALLY slanted the other way at the lower levels. In Diamond league now, I can very much lose a game to a single misclick (especially true with early forcefields in builds designed to survive on them as specific timings). In Bronze, I can honestly say that I don't think I ever lost a game I had the better macro in simply because the differences are much bigger at that level and really up until upper platinum on the cusp of being promoted to diamond did I really need to start learning to control my units well as a win or lose level of important play.
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On January 11 2011 11:55 LtLolburger wrote: This is the funny thing about macro... it is essential, yes. But poor scouting, a misclick, poor unit control, poor composition, poor positioning, and general poor decision making can cost you games against opponents who macro worse than you. So while I think this topic is good, macro alone should not be too overly emphasised as the key to getting better in this game. Its all just practice. And its no good just playing games, you have to TRY to get better. People get frustrated because they play 50 games and see no improvement... you need to stop making the same mistakes. Actually just after I got the game and was just playing off my SCBW "skills", all I did was make SCVs, Barracks, and Marines and research stim and combat shield, and then a-move and rally and stim marines and that got me to Diamond. You seriously need nothing but macro. It might be more difficult with the other races, like with Z you probably need to know something basic about compositions, and with P... well Stalkers kind of do the same thing. Some basic skills are of course necessary like knowing the hotkeys and some very simple micro, but in the end if you have 50 Marines vs his 30 Marines, his fancy micro isn't going to do anything.
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On January 11 2011 12:04 SnuggleZhenya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 11:55 LtLolburger wrote: This is the funny thing about macro... it is essential, yes. But poor scouting, a misclick, poor unit control, poor composition, poor positioning, and general poor decision making can cost you games against opponents who macro worse than you. So while I think this topic is good, macro alone should not be too overly emphasised as the key to getting better in this game. Its all just practice. And its no good just playing games, you have to TRY to get better. People get frustrated because they play 50 games and see no improvement... you need to stop making the same mistakes. While this is true in a general, is DRASTICALLY slanted the other way at the lower levels. In Diamond league now, I can very much lose a game to a single misclick (especially true with early forcefields in builds designed to survive on them as specific timings). In Bronze, I can honestly say that I don't think I ever lost a game I had the better macro in simply because the differences are much bigger at that level and really up until upper platinum on the cusp of being promoted to diamond did I really need to start learning to control my units well as a win or lose level of important play.
This is absolutely true and the real reason why I started to write this. Not only do they/we have much less stuff at all given times in bronze. We have no idea how much stuff we could have if we were macro'ing better.
For me realizing what I could have at 7-minutes then making sure I had it at that time was the last bit I needed to GTFO of bronze. I seriously could not believe how easy it was to win by just having enough stuff at the right time.
I can now see why so many people get sick of the threads how do i beat xyz strat in bronze. It really is you need to have more stuff because that xyz does not exist really in the higher leagues or if it does you have enough stuff that it is not a problem.
For the low league players, I hope that knowing how much you could have off a basic build helps them understand better the fundamentals of playing this game against other real people.
Also, finally posted the first 2 replays for terran 3-rax and 1-1-1 builds. I am sure they can be better but it is a start and the best I can do ATM.
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On January 11 2011 12:04 SnuggleZhenya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 11:55 LtLolburger wrote: This is the funny thing about macro... it is essential, yes. But poor scouting, a misclick, poor unit control, poor composition, poor positioning, and general poor decision making can cost you games against opponents who macro worse than you. So while I think this topic is good, macro alone should not be too overly emphasised as the key to getting better in this game. Its all just practice. And its no good just playing games, you have to TRY to get better. People get frustrated because they play 50 games and see no improvement... you need to stop making the same mistakes. While this is true in a general, is DRASTICALLY slanted the other way at the lower levels. In Diamond league now, I can very much lose a game to a single misclick (especially true with early forcefields in builds designed to survive on them as specific timings). In Bronze, I can honestly say that I don't think I ever lost a game I had the better macro in simply because the differences are much bigger at that level and really up until upper platinum on the cusp of being promoted to diamond did I really need to start learning to control my units well as a win or lose level of important play. This is so true. In lower plat, I had a zerg complain that stalkers were "uncounterable" (lol) even though it was just better macro and me getting just a lot of stuff.
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You need to mention hotkeys as they are pretty important for macro, as protoss I use a little rotation for my fingers to check on robos, gates, and my nexus and I've gotten very very good at it. I go 1w3 1w3 1w3 1w3 1w3 1w3 (nexus on 1 robo on 3) coupled with looking at the lower bar I check how done things are and I know when I need to queue another unit or warp stuff in.
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Great guide. This is pretty much how I learned how to play SC:BW. By learning exactly what is "just macro" and putting it fully to the test. I found that by becoming truly good at "just macroing" I was able to play on par or better with all my friends, even those who have been playing much longer than I. What people say about macro not being all there is, is true. However, macro is still easily the most important thing to be able to grasp at lower levels of play. It really doesn't matter if the opponent has a beautiful unit composition while you're only massing T1 units (insert Terran joke here) but 70 marines will beat a pretty composition of 2 sentries 3 zealots and a couple stalkers any day no matter how nice their micro may or may not be.
That said, I'm not completely convinced that you should encourage 1-base play at any level. But hey, if it works, why not? x]
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good work, I'd love to see zerg part filled with info. I might add some reps if/when I find some time to actually play the game...
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Really nice, i think that will help me a lot! Thanks!
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Hi folks! Here come my two cents, and I hope i can encourage people contributing to this post, because I think it can change the world. (Sure you could just use a boombox but they are considered hazardous at times).
This post is an absolute eye opener - or so it should be - for people (I'm not saying me, but maybe me) thinking "man i watch day[9] every day, i understand the game mechanics so well, i already have decent micro in certain situations, and..." here comes the catch "...i always understand why i lost a particular game when i watch my replays but still i cannot seem to do anything about it and get stuck at bronze #1. I need a better tactic. I have to read up on how to counter the exact same thing that just keeps killing me every time".
If you want to become a better gamer you have to learn the basics, not "fancy up" while still pooing in your pants. If you think in "high level" terms considering the countering system and superfancy micro, you have to come back to the ground level and realize this first:
Sure, I could have put some patrolling marines on the edge of my base to stop those reapers from coming in... but really I was already dead at the 7 minute mark.
Yes, a little earlier scout, a single turret, a single patrolling viking, a single sieged up tank close to my mineral line, any of this could have completely annihilated his drop and I would have had the upper hand and definetely won this game... but really I was already dead at the 7 minute mark.
If you're 10-12 food ahead with the most important upgrades ready, while he doesn't there is no scissor, no paper, no rocks. You just go and fucking kill him.
I actually believe this is how the "overpowered" and all of the lower leagues' structure comes into being. First of all playing Terran with the 3 rax, 1reactor, 2techlabs is the easiest and most obvious way to start playing multiplayer, especially to people finishing the campaign first. And without realizing they practice exactly what is described in this thread to perfection (well, I think 80% efficiency according to the OP's definition is more than enough) and suddenly they beat "everyone" in less than 10 minutes and their opponents - conviced they do "just (good) macro" themselves cannot seem to do anything about it. Then those really good "just macro" players start dying to "cheesers" because they never learn how to handle super-early pressure. After all they seem to have figured out how to beat anything "normal", so why worry, right? So an enourmous mass both aspiring macro players and die-hard cheesers keep themselves in a deadlock at bronze #1. Nevertheless there are die-hard-cheesers in the lower diamond leagues as well. You almost never see replays and never hear of them, because who wants to up a replay where you (a decent diamond player yourself) died to bronze-level stuff. And on the other side nobody really wants to brag with cheese. Oh, the smell alone... yuck. This is why the "bronze to lower diamond" players are considered just the same bunch of, well "ambitious" players in top-level terms. To "become a better player" with exact game plans and crisp executed strategies you have to stop being a noob first - and THIS is how to do it.
Forgive my long-ish post, but this is awesome work and should be considered the real 101 for everyone below the 90th percentile of Starcraft 2 Players. Who - after weeks and weeks of learning what workers, resources, production and research facilities, units and hotkeys are - are ready to become a "valid" gamer, before trying to go and become a better one.
So please all you savvy Protoss and Zerg Players out there: All you have to do is take a simple build, execute it to absolute perfection - maybe on normal speed without any opponent? - and look at the units tab at 7 minutes into the replay. Takes 15 minutes out of your day and will be a real valuable contribution to the community.
PS. The idea is to create a macro-benchmark, not encouraging/propagating 1base-play or certain strategies. If a benchmark for 1base-play as zerg does not make sense, it can easily be a simple 2-base build. This does not break the idea of the OP imo - if you are able to create a basic army close to the theoretical maximum size at any given time, you've mastered the "just macro" idea. Balancing drones vs. army according to the current situation will be part of your task in fancying up.
good luck and have fun!
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On February 12 2011 17:55 TheMightyLeChuck wrote: Hi folks! Here come my two cents, and I hope i can encourage people contributing to this post, because I think it can change the world. (Sure you could just use a boombox but they are considered hazardous at times).
This post is an absolute eye opener - or so it should be - for people (I'm not saying me, but maybe me) thinking "man i watch day[9] every day, i understand the game mechanics so well, i already have decent micro in certain situations, and..." here comes the catch "...i always understand why i lost a particular game when i watch my replays but still i cannot seem to do anything about it and get stuck at bronze #1. I need a better tactic. I have to read up on how to counter the exact same thing that just keeps killing me every time".
If you want to become a better gamer you have to learn the basics, not "fancy up" while still pooing in your pants. If you think in "high level" terms considering the countering system and superfancy micro, you have to come back to the ground level and realize this first:
Sure, I could have put some patrolling marines on the edge of my base to stop those reapers from coming in... but really I was already dead at the 7 minute mark.
Yes, a little earlier scout, a single turret, a single patrolling viking, a single sieged up tank close to my mineral line, any of this could have completely annihilated his drop and I would have had the upper hand and definetely won this game... but really I was already dead at the 7 minute mark.
If you're 10-12 food ahead with the most important upgrades ready, while he doesn't there is no scissor, no paper, no rocks. You just go and fucking kill him.
I actually believe this is how the "overpowered" and all of the lower leagues' structure comes into being. First of all playing Terran with the 3 rax, 1reactor, 2techlabs is the easiest and most obvious way to start playing multiplayer, especially to people finishing the campaign first. And without realizing they practice exactly what is described in this thread to perfection (well, I think 80% efficiency according to the OP's definition is more than enough) and suddenly they beat "everyone" in less than 10 minutes and their opponents - conviced they do "just (good) macro" themselves cannot seem to do anything about it. Then those really good "just macro" players start dying to "cheesers" because they never learn how to handle super-early pressure. After all they seem to have figured out how to beat anything "normal", so why worry, right? So an enourmous mass both aspiring macro players and die-hard cheesers keep themselves in a deadlock at bronze #1. Nevertheless there are die-hard-cheesers in the lower diamond leagues as well. You almost never see replays and never hear of them, because who wants to up a replay where you (a decent diamond player yourself) died to bronze-level stuff. And on the other side nobody really wants to brag with cheese. Oh, the smell alone... yuck. This is why the "bronze to lower diamond" players are considered just the same bunch of, well "ambitious" players in top-level terms. To "become a better player" with exact game plans and crisp executed strategies you have to stop being a noob first - and THIS is how to do it.
Forgive my long-ish post, but this is awesome work and should be considered the real 101 for everyone below the 90th percentile of Starcraft 2 Players. Who - after weeks and weeks of learning what workers, resources, production and research facilities, units and hotkeys are - are ready to become a "valid" gamer, before trying to go and become a better one.
So please all you savvy Protoss and Zerg Players out there: All you have to do is take a simple build, execute it to absolute perfection - maybe on normal speed without any opponent? - and look at the units tab at 7 minutes into the replay. Takes 15 minutes out of your day and will be a real valuable contribution to the community.
PS. The idea is to create a macro-benchmark, not encouraging/propagating 1base-play or certain strategies. If a benchmark for 1base-play as zerg does not make sense, it can easily be a simple 2-base build. This does not break the idea of the OP imo - if you are able to create a basic army close to the theoretical maximum size at any given time, you've mastered the "just macro" idea. Balancing drones vs. army according to the current situation will be part of your task in fancying up.
good luck and have fun!
There is a thread with this exact context named "So you think you can macro" still on the front page....
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I posted this in the "So you think you can macro" thread, but I'll post it here as well. Once, I was telling a particular terran player what opening he should do, "10 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC" and his reply was "yes, I do that already!" (he's was in Gold). When I checked the replay, I saw that the SCV was pulled so late, it was more like a 13-14 rax. Not to mention "not producing SCVs" and being "supply-capped".
Many low-level players simply don't realise what a difference good macro-execution makes. If you're a high-level player, you have already understood this, this may mean nothing much to you, but they can be an eye-opener to those struggling in lower leagues.
As for zerg, yes, playing them is a little different. However, if you're in bronze/silver, just getting the macro mechanics is of vital importance. And with any race, sure, you'll lose to cheese now and then because you are practicing proper mechanics. However, the important thing is that it will lead to better results in the long run.
Too many players are overtly concerned with the short-run (i.e. what should I do about this?) when in reality, improving your mechanics is the most important thing.
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This is a fantastic post and something I think should be essential on the list of "I have just started playing, vomit information at me please" responses.
The fact that it focusses on one-basing, some people seem to feel is a bad thing, some people are saying it's weak for Zerg, etc. But honestly? Who cares. It's been stated explicitly that one base play does not equal good Macro, and that it is just the beginning, and that this post is aimed at people who are absolute beginners. Which build order you give them is not going to matter much for a little while because they are still getting to grips with basic game mechanics.
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On February 12 2011 18:07 Arisen wrote: There is a thread with this exact context named "So you think you can macro" still on the front page....
That is absolutely correct. I just found this one first as it is also the first one to have been posted, the OP's can fight for the credit
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