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I want to know if the proxy hatch is effective or even possible at all. I tried the proxy hatch against a mid platinum level player and I won by a landslide. I'll try and post the replay when I get the chance.
1) There are several reasons why a proxy hatch could be effective and those reasons are what won me the game. First of all, you are already inside the base and can send lings directly into the opponents mineral line. Second, it prevents a wall off because the opponent will focus all his/her efforts on the hatch inside your base. Third, you can put spine crawlers down and really do a lot of damage. Also, if you can get a queen out of the hatch (which I did) then you can make even more lings with no delay to get to the base.
2) This is also a reason why it could be effective but I think that it is very important. You are screwing with the opponents head. When they start to see creep in their base and then see the hatch and lings, they will probably be thinking oh shit what do I do now? Even if it fails, the opponent will be worried, panic, and make bad decisions.
3) Another major point is that you prevent a wall off like I previously mentioned. If you just produce lings, a queen, and a few spines from the proxy hatch, you will probably have some extra minerals like I did. I used those to make lings from my main base and rallied them just outside the enemy's front. Once I felt I had enough lings, I sent them right into his base and killed him. He made a lot of units to try and kill the lings I was sending, the queen, and the spine crawler that I made. He had good macro and it wasn't that he just had no units.
4) Reasons why the proxy hatch won't work. Maps with small bases are not a good place to try proxy hatches. The map that I did it on was scrapyard and I did it in the corner of the enemy's base. Also, If the enemy is spreading structures around the base, or overlords, then I wouldn't recommend trying it with that particular person. Don't underestimate the proxy hatch. A big part of its effectiveness is the fact that no one ever expects to get a hatchery in their base.
TL, I want to ask you guys to post replays of you doing it, whether it works or not. Don't put down this build until you try it. I immediately sent a drone into the corner of the enemy's base and then built the hatch on 14 and then a pool immediately after. Also, post any reasons why you think it will or won't work, but DON'T post how you think that this build is stupid or useless or anything. If it turns out that what I did was just extremely lucky, then I guess that's that. BTW, the game I was describing, it was my first try doing that build. I didn't do that build 50 times till it worked, or even 2. I did it on my first try. I had no experience doing this build and I just made it up as I went along. I didn't have any experience doing this.
Please post replays and comment! 
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i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
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Like just about any proxy with any other race, This won't end well as long as your opponent is scouting his base. That being said, fewer people actually scout their base against zerg, and yet, a diligent player would likely scout YOUR base and see that although you don't have an expo showing, you're either late on pool-gas, or something somewhere is being cut.
Proxy hatch is much likelier to work when your opponent isn't quite certain on Zerg timings, I suppose.
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well. ITs pretty all in, and the player you are playing wont know what the hell is going on, so you might be able to do a suprise baneling bust by putting it on your proxy hatch (outside their base). Putting it inside their base is utterly bad. Particularily against a terran, because he will just wall and kill it with marines before you can get any units out. Then you have lost your hatch super early. Most good players scout their bases in the early game for cheese, so I dont see it working on anyone decent. Maybe a proxy hatch outside of their base for a speedling/spine push might work.
although I dont think you could do it on their natural at least against terran. It would make terran 2 rax really easy! , If you do it just away from his natural so he doesnt see it will leave your main much more vulnerable while he just walls off extra thick.
You might take a suprise game off someone but i really dont see it working on better players. Although I cant speak for protoss early game because i dont play it. I just dont see it working against terran.
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On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote:
i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this.
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I tried this against a protoss who lost track of my drone in his base while he was doing a two base wall in. The moment he saw it, he was able to stop me. Once the wall in is complete, I can't get in from the outside. But at the same time I can't kill his stuff inside fast enough to get a foothold. And this guy had a lot of other options he didn't try, like cannons, which would have completely halted my advance.
Part of me wants to try it more, just for fun, but I don't think it is a strategy you can pull off if he knows you are doing it.
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On January 02 2011 13:31 Terminator(471) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote:
i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this.
i wouldn't lose 100 minerals for the chrono zealot- i would just lose the chronoboost that i used. the forge is 150 minerals but ends up getting used for the +1 upgrade later on the second pylon needs to be built anyways but i guess you do have a point if i do lay down 2 cannons would be 300 minerals so i guess if there was no pressure on my ramp then the cannon that is placed there to help against any early aggression- but the zerg player is more that 300 minerals behind because he would only have 1 structure to build drones and units for quiet a while
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Someone tried this on me. i saw the hatch going down, i actually did a double take as i thought it was a spine crawler not being placed on creep. I let it finish and then killed it with 3 zealots. it set him far back and a quick rush won the game.
I would argue that this is not plausible at a decent level of play as :
It is easily scoutable. - This could only work if this was not scoutable, and even then it is not plausible.
it takes a decent amount of time to work (hatch at 100 seconds + larva + units) by this time u could get 3 zealtots (without chronoboost) /6 marines at the same cost and time
it is expensive at 300 mins, which is a lot at the start of the game, and i feel that it would be better used as a fast expo.
Even if u were against a forge FE toss and u got in his main, poped the hatch and 6 lings, his workers at his main would outnumber you to the point you wouldn't do any significant damage and he would counter with 2 zealots.
Summary
Could this work? sure anything can work, will it work? most likely no.
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On January 02 2011 14:55 PmP wrote:
Someone tried this on me. i saw the hatch going down, i actually did a double take as i thought it was a spine crawler not being placed on creep form a glitch or something as i would have never suspected a hatch. I let it finish and then killed it with 3 zealots. it set him far back and a quick rush won the game.
I would argue that this is not plausible at a decent level of play as :
It is easily scoutable. - This could only work if this was not scoutable, and even then it is not plausible.
it takes a decent amount of time to work (hatch at 100 seconds + larva + units) by this time u could get 3 zealtots (without chronoboost) /6 marines at the same cost and time
it is expensive at 300 mins, which is a lot at the start of the game, and i feel that it would be better used as a fast expo.
Even if u were against a forge FE toss and u got in his main, poped the hatch and 6 lings, his workers at his main would outnumber you to the point you wouldn't do any significant damage and he would counter with 2 zealots.
Summary
Could this work? sure anything can work, will it work? most likely no.
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On January 02 2011 13:51 Allred wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 13:31 Terminator(471) wrote:On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote:
i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this. i wouldn't lose 100 minerals for the chrono zealot- i would just lose the chronoboost that i used. the forge is 150 minerals but ends up getting used for the +1 upgrade later on the second pylon needs to be built anyways but i guess you do have a point if i do lay down 2 cannons would be 300 minerals so i guess if there was no pressure on my ramp then the cannon that is placed there to help against any early aggression- but the zerg player is more that 300 minerals behind because he would only have 1 structure to build drones and units for quiet a while
If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo.
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I've tried it, and it's only worked vs forge fast expand on Scrap station where the Protoss doesn't get a gateway up until after a forge, cannon, and nexus. I one-based hard and build roaches, spine crawlers, and a queen in his main.
If they scout your base at all, though, they will notice that you didn't spend 300 minerals on something visable, and that is pretty suspicious. Hatches also take FOREVER to get up compared to gateways or raxes, so the opponent has a very large window to scout your base and see that you're up to something. If you late-scout a proxy Protoss or Terran player, it can sometimes be too late to adjust. Not so much with a proxy hatch...
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Make it at the natural and you can put spine crawler defenses up and contain him. Only problem is void rays.
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I remember seeing an amazing replay once of Check.Prime using one after getting his ramp blocked by cannons. He then got some roaches, a queen, and maybe even a spinecrawler before pushing into the base of the Protoss after he FE'd.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
This is super annoying to deal with when you are forge expanding. Lost every time they did it to me because I found it too late, and even tho it only took a pylon and 2 cannons to take down, roaches, smartly avoiding the cannons, were in my main mineral line taking out my main nexus and my cannons couldn't chase them.
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On January 02 2011 13:14 Terminator(471) wrote:Please post replays and comment!
No, YOU post replays. -_-
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you try this 10 more times and tell us if you won atleast 1.
this is something you should do for your own entertainment only.
vs FE (and careless) protoss should be great though.
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I will post some replays later, but one of my favorite zerg cheeses is the 10 proxy hatch
you build up to 10 workers and then send one out towards your opponents base, if you are playing on a 4p map send the drone out a little bit sooner.
Idea is that you put down the hatchery the second you can after your supply hits 10, then produce a drone / vesp glitch / and then build spawning pool asap, followed by your second overlord, then you can vesp glitch again (your pref) and then save larvae once your spawning pool nears halfway.
From an opponents scouting perspective it looks like you are gong 14 pool, nothing out of the ordinary unless they count the drones. when the hatchery comes in build 1 drone (depending on how close to the ramp the proxy hatch is or if its in base, if its far away then get ling) and 1 queen, + 3 lings from your base and then have fun.
zvp = counters cannon rush from P keep your first over alive so you can sunken the entrance
zvt = works very well, but best counter is tanks
zvz = you can almost build your sunken in their creep. the timing push comes right before the 7 roach rush if im not mistaken.
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It's a viable strategy, Im ~2700 Zerg and I win more games than I lose when I proxy inbase Hatch.
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On January 02 2011 15:26 village_idiot wrote:
Make it at the natural and you can put spine crawler defenses up and contain him. Only problem is void rays.
not at all, the point of the proxy is to produce your first queen from the proxy and spawn extra larva / creep spread into the base. Your opponent cant get voids out without risking you scouting it and by then you can easily pump out a second queen.
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EPT
