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Proxy Hatch - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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hiyo_bye
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States737 Posts
January 02 2011 07:43 GMT
#21
enjoy

http://www.google.com/m/url?client=safari&ei=8SsgTcjYLqWKlQfU6dqPAQ&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&q=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNER11DSqU&ved=0CBQQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGTGR8svBythA9TxAEPIfmObuh7vA
Random
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
January 02 2011 07:47 GMT
#22
Like any proxy strategy, it will likely win if they do not scout it and likely will not win if they do. A lot of players have good base awareness and will see it, but plenty don't. I've lost to it on occasion, but I've also beat it by scouting it.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-02 08:12:51
January 02 2011 07:56 GMT
#23
I like a proxy hatch using 3 roaches and a queen. It's a bit all-in, but generally it requires your opponent to pull off minerals to defend in time -- and since you're droning at your main, it equals out while throwing your opponent off-kilter. If nothing else, their over-reaction will equal what you spent (pylons + cannons + lost probe time + lost macro time). Pretty effective on small rush distance maps like Steppes, actually -- and Zergs don't stand a chance there anyway, so... may as well try something. BTW, there are two spots you can proxy hatch on on Steppes, either above/below your opponent, or actually inside of their base. I prefer the inside-the-base method, because I like to have a Queen there to support my roaches (Zealots don't stand a chance).

ROOTCatZ vs ONEgatored- http://www.sc2-strategy.com/rootcatz-vs-onegatored-zvp-metalopolis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed: Starcraft2StrategyGuidesTerranProtossZergSc2 (Starcraft 2 Strategy Guides Terran Protoss Zerg SC2)&utm_content=Twitter

The BO follows:

9/10 oLord
10/10 Scout
15/18 Pool
15/18 Extractor
16/18 Hatch (Proxy)
16/18 Roach Warren
(Stay @ 15 Drones) 15/18 Queen @ Proxy
17/18 oLord
When 3 larva @ proxy, 3 roaches
(Continue droning, keep proxy alive as long as possible, expand if feasible)
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
Silver_Thor
Profile Joined January 2011
United States18 Posts
January 03 2011 08:02 GMT
#24
ok we've argued over this for about 2 hours in game....please tell me...if this is scouted...especially as protoss how does it work?

the only chance this build has is its not spoted...if its spoted, especially as the drone is making the hatch...this build DOES NOT WORK....and even up to half way through all a Protoss has to do is make a second gateway, stop chronoboosting probes and switch to zealots and deal with the hatch and they're ahead

IF the hatchery is capable of makeing roaches as you kept saying in game than yes i agree THE PERSON DID NOT SCOUT/REACT PROPERLY so the build works, if scouted this should never work
SpaceFighting
Profile Joined January 2010
New Zealand690 Posts
January 03 2011 08:38 GMT
#25
ive done a couple proxy pools, its actually full of lulz, and thats why i did it..i won like 75% of them, im assuming kuz they keep looking for expo's instead of a proxy pool
kuz pro
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 09:48:47
January 03 2011 09:11 GMT
#26
If an opponent stops chrono boosting probes and is forced down a zealot path, I would think a Zerg who has used this opportunity to drone in his main would be ahead. Roaches rape Zealots, so the Zerg is in a strong defensive position, has lost 75m+25g (x3) + 150 + 300. He sacrifices no drone time, however.

The protoss has to make 3 Zealots to counter, but such a small number, depending on the time @ which the hatchery was scouted (if after half, this is DEFINITIVELY true) will still allow the first wave (again, 3 roaches + a queen) to spawn before being taken out. At least 2 Zealots will die, which likely means 5-6 Zealots have been made to stop this. +No Chrono probes, +some players when harassed this early forget to build probes in dealing with it.

300+150+225 = 775 minerals + 75 gas. That's how much this attack costs, assuming only one wave spawns. 5-6 Zealots made in time will usually need 2 gateways, but even assuming just one, the Zerg is down 175-275 minerals + 75 gas, not even counting probes distracted, or lost probe mining time (if you don't hit the hatchery with 3-4 before the first zealot, you won't stand a chance).

That cost is kind of important, but remember: your opponent has been forced straight to Zealots, which SUCK vs Roaches, so you're in a great position to expand. The protoss can't build 5-6 zealots, keep making probes, make a core, and do everything else they're going to have to do. They don't have that much money. Not to mention Zealots take FOREVER to build.

Replays are provided, though I will warn everyone, these games involve Silver, Gold & Bronze level people. I have tested it against Platinum, I don't think I've managed to test it against Diamond though. I look forward to those tests

I would argue the only person to defend this correctly is poolninja on Metalopolis. BTW, I include the Steppes game as a variation for fun. It fails quite epicly xD

http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy1.SC2Replay
http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy2.SC2Replay
http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy3.SC2Replay
http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy4.SC2Replay
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
Silver_Thor
Profile Joined January 2011
United States18 Posts
January 03 2011 09:42 GMT
#27
after being beat by this strat on Metalopolis and Scrap Station due to not scouting i went against the same person "knowing" it was coming and got yelled at for "scout harassment" when i noticed there was a drone in my base

my question is, if spotted does anyone think this build stands a chance at all? my personal opinion is if scouted within seeing a drone in your base - 3/4 built...and maybe even after with proper reaction/micro...this build will not work

i understand if the hatch is allowed to build it is extremely difficult if not impossible to survive but the best way to defeat any cheese/all-in is to a.) not let it happen or b.) scout it and be prepared and id like to think any plat+ player would notice something like that and at most would only lose units up to the amount it cost to make the hatch and the 3 units it produces (if the hatch somehow survives that long)
eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
January 03 2011 09:48 GMT
#28
there are so many threads about this already. Why anybody plays this cheesy in the first place is beyond me. Especially when your playing zerg and have got the macro advantage. What do you get out it? I dont get it. Is it because the only way you win is with these lame strats?

This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game?
6 poll is a good skill toi have
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 09:55:55
January 03 2011 09:50 GMT
#29
Honestly, I started using it for best of 3s on maps I don't like. Steppes in particular. The reason to do it? It deters a Chrono-boosted Zealot (very hard to deal with as Zerg) being pushed out, or any kind of Zealot rush.

Exodus, my question to you is, what happens when someone with skill uses this? I'm against people who RELY on cheese -- that is, they can't get wins any other way. But players who use limited amounts of cheese, but few all-ins (which destroy late game potential)? Well, I think those players shine. This is NOT an all in, because the entire time, you're building drones at your base. The 300 you "save" is pretty standard (the strategy I posted is a deviation off of Idra 15 pool / 16 hatch; if the Hatchery doesn't begin for any reason, it's very simple to switch back). Basically, if you have a few BOs, with many different paths to follow for each one, you're a much stronger, less predictable player.

You can't go 14 hatch or 14 pool/15 hatch every game.
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 09:53:11
January 03 2011 09:50 GMT
#30
oops. DP.
6 poll is a good skill toi have
Silver_Thor
Profile Joined January 2011
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 09:58:51
January 03 2011 09:55 GMT
#31
exodus i only posted here cuz it was the only thread given to me by theonlyshaft and i fail so didnt look for others lol, if u happen to have links to the others so we can look at them i'd appreciate it...if not i'll just be not lazy and look for them in the morning lol

edit: i meant links for within teamliquid
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 10:23:03
January 03 2011 10:07 GMT
#32
I still think assuming this is an all-in is a mistake. It can function as a transition when performed correctly. Too many people here are saying "and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack"

The OP is absolutely right when saying "I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this."

Darthturtle also makes a very strong point: "If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo."

You lose money defending this. It breaks your build order -- say for example you were going for a gateway cybernetic build. Well, one gateway won't make enough Zealots to stop this before roach + queen show up unless it is built around about 9 food which just isn't feasible. So you've just stopped a fast-stalker game, forcing Zealots vs Roaches.

And then let's say this same opponent decides cannons are the proper counter -- well, Forge most likely wasn't in his build either. Not to mention these minerals have to be pulled from somewhere (most likely from probes, as the current perception is this is "all in" and in defending an "all in", it doesn't matter if you lose or don't make a few workers, because your opponent is "all in"). But the Zerg IS NOT all in, because the army he makes comes only from the second hatchery (if it even makes it up). Drones are still being produced at the original hatch, so economy is still going strong and you can choose, if you like, to use a 14 pool, 13 extractor expand timing, instead. Regardless, making that forge again disturbs the BO, and the more you rock a Protoss build order, the better off you are. The more you can control what your opponents make (he had to go Zealots, remember? Now you're going Roaches), the better off you are. The more you can contain your opponent in his base while doing your thing, the better off you are. Make your opponent play your game, don't play his.
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
January 03 2011 10:18 GMT
#33
agreed but still. Its something that only works because you are mostly clueless until you see the creep spread.

I know that this would only happen to me once and never again. Dont get me wrong, its probably a free win for me if i scout it so it dont bother me.

What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat.

I just really think this is no fun to play against win or lose. As if games these days werent short enough?

I cant check links now cos teamliquid search aint working so well with my phone today. Will check again when i get home but if im not mistaken i know of 2 so far that ive read.
6 poll is a good skill toi have
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 10:36:54
January 03 2011 10:26 GMT
#34
"I know that this would only happen to me once and never again. Dont get me wrong, its probably a free win for me if i scout it so it dont bother me." I'd really love to play you, to be honest, and test that sometime. Because I don't think it'll be an easy win even if you do scout. Worst case scenario on scout is you get 3 Zealots and destroy me before it's up, but to do that in time, you need 2 gateways or to spend all chronos on it or to build the gateway too early to begin with, blindly.

But I agree wholeheartedly with this: "What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat." If you RELY on cheese to win, you're shit. You get no respect.

I'd like people to definitely check out the game against poolninja on metalopolis. He does 2 gateways, 5 Zealots. Even with those forces, my hatchery dies 3/4 the way through my roaches popping out; the Queen doesn't make it lol. He lost 2 Zealots FOR SURE, but I think it was 3. Which matches my hatchery cost. (75+25g)3 is all I lose, but I gain much time, less pressure on me, and a lot more on my opponent.
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
Phadt
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden92 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 10:41:26
January 03 2011 10:32 GMT
#35
I don't like this idea too much just because it's so hard to hide on most maps. Scrap seems the easiest but it would more be a strat vs protoss imo and most (at least many?) protoss wall-in their main and nat which prevents ur reinforcements from comming through, but I might be wrong cause I don't play protoss except for a few games a week to keep myself updated on the race.

I have seen similar cheese done where u build a hatch and then cancel it when ur creep is out to build an evo chamber instead. The evo chamber eventually dies from lack of creep and broodlings spawn. If u do this strat vs terran u can use the broodlings to attack his units and soak up the dmg while u do a baneling bust on his wall to get in virtually unattacked which can give u a big lead if not the win but ofc it's slower than a "normal" baneling bust.

Btw this is idd a cheese in that it's an all-in really and if ur in the lower brackets I strongly recomend u learn to macro decently instead of trying to win like this. This would probably not be a cheese tactic u could adjust to fit diamond league standard of play and therefor it is even less worth doing than other cheese because it's basically just a way to get free wins vs ppl who aren't that good at the game, and vs them u should really learn to just play well instead imo.

p.s. if ur an insane korean and u hold off early cheese with minimal resources so ur ahead u could prob do that ensnare did to check in that video and do the inbase hatch.
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 10:40:17
January 03 2011 10:39 GMT
#36
Then Phadt, why does it work at high levels of play as well? Leenockfou won a game on Steppes of War doing a proxy hatch OUTSIDE of his opponents base in GSL 3 (his was all-in); rootcatz does this often, but I provided a VOD of him raping onegatored with it. Most proxy hatcheries are all in -- if you're trying to re-supply with your main, it's DEFINITELY all in -- but that doesn't mean all are Phadt.

The OP is a mid-level Platinum player. I don't think he's doing this to advance leagues or to avoid macro.
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
January 03 2011 10:43 GMT
#37
i wouldve liked to but you are in the wrong region, and this build relies on the element of surprise which you wouldnt have.

And i play terran not protoss. I would deal with it the same way i deal with any proxy cheese.

Its really not that hard.
6 poll is a good skill toi have
GT
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)141 Posts
January 03 2011 10:44 GMT
#38
it doesnt work, although it has some entertainment value :D
Milith
Profile Joined January 2011
France10 Posts
January 03 2011 10:46 GMT
#39
Did that with a roach warren on my main, worked pretty well. But that was a custom game and my opponent was awful.
And by advanced, i mean really fucking bad
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 10:48:39
January 03 2011 10:47 GMT
#40
Exodus, I don't mind you knowing it's coming. The worst thing you can do to stop it is block me from building it with your worker, in which case I expand at my natural. The way I play it, surprise is NOT required

Still, region will be a problem ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;

EDIT: Oh, you're Terran, nevermind. Marines rofl all over this -.-;
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
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