EPThttp://www.google.com/m/url?client=safari&ei=8SsgTcjYLqWKlQfU6dqPAQ&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&q=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNER11DSqU&ved=0CBQQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGTGR8svBythA9TxAEPIfmObuh7vA
Proxy Hatch - Page 2
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hiyo_bye
United States737 Posts
http://www.google.com/m/url?client=safari&ei=8SsgTcjYLqWKlQfU6dqPAQ&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&q=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNER11DSqU&ved=0CBQQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGTGR8svBythA9TxAEPIfmObuh7vA | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
ROOTCatZ vs ONEgatored- http://www.sc2-strategy.com/rootcatz-vs-onegatored-zvp-metalopolis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed: Starcraft2StrategyGuidesTerranProtossZergSc2 (Starcraft 2 Strategy Guides Terran Protoss Zerg SC2)&utm_content=Twitter The BO follows: 9/10 oLord 10/10 Scout 15/18 Pool 15/18 Extractor 16/18 Hatch (Proxy) 16/18 Roach Warren (Stay @ 15 Drones) 15/18 Queen @ Proxy 17/18 oLord When 3 larva @ proxy, 3 roaches (Continue droning, keep proxy alive as long as possible, expand if feasible) | ||
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Silver_Thor
United States18 Posts
the only chance this build has is its not spoted...if its spoted, especially as the drone is making the hatch...this build DOES NOT WORK....and even up to half way through all a Protoss has to do is make a second gateway, stop chronoboosting probes and switch to zealots and deal with the hatch and they're ahead IF the hatchery is capable of makeing roaches as you kept saying in game than yes i agree THE PERSON DID NOT SCOUT/REACT PROPERLY so the build works, if scouted this should never work | ||
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SpaceFighting
New Zealand690 Posts
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
The protoss has to make 3 Zealots to counter, but such a small number, depending on the time @ which the hatchery was scouted (if after half, this is DEFINITIVELY true) will still allow the first wave (again, 3 roaches + a queen) to spawn before being taken out. At least 2 Zealots will die, which likely means 5-6 Zealots have been made to stop this. +No Chrono probes, +some players when harassed this early forget to build probes in dealing with it. 300+150+225 = 775 minerals + 75 gas. That's how much this attack costs, assuming only one wave spawns. 5-6 Zealots made in time will usually need 2 gateways, but even assuming just one, the Zerg is down 175-275 minerals + 75 gas, not even counting probes distracted, or lost probe mining time (if you don't hit the hatchery with 3-4 before the first zealot, you won't stand a chance). That cost is kind of important, but remember: your opponent has been forced straight to Zealots, which SUCK vs Roaches, so you're in a great position to expand. The protoss can't build 5-6 zealots, keep making probes, make a core, and do everything else they're going to have to do. They don't have that much money. Not to mention Zealots take FOREVER to build. Replays are provided, though I will warn everyone, these games involve Silver, Gold & Bronze level people. I have tested it against Platinum, I don't think I've managed to test it against Diamond though. I look forward to those tests  I would argue the only person to defend this correctly is poolninja on Metalopolis. BTW, I include the Steppes game as a variation for fun. It fails quite epicly xD http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy1.SC2Replay http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy2.SC2Replay http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy3.SC2Replay http://shaft.claneat.com/Proxy4.SC2Replay | ||
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Silver_Thor
United States18 Posts
my question is, if spotted does anyone think this build stands a chance at all? my personal opinion is if scouted within seeing a drone in your base - 3/4 built...and maybe even after with proper reaction/micro...this build will not work i understand if the hatch is allowed to build it is extremely difficult if not impossible to survive but the best way to defeat any cheese/all-in is to a.) not let it happen or b.) scout it and be prepared and id like to think any plat+ player would notice something like that and at most would only lose units up to the amount it cost to make the hatch and the 3 units it produces (if the hatch somehow survives that long) | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game? | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
Exodus, my question to you is, what happens when someone with skill uses this? I'm against people who RELY on cheese -- that is, they can't get wins any other way. But players who use limited amounts of cheese, but few all-ins (which destroy late game potential)? Well, I think those players shine. This is NOT an all in, because the entire time, you're building drones at your base. The 300 you "save" is pretty standard (the strategy I posted is a deviation off of Idra 15 pool / 16 hatch; if the Hatchery doesn't begin for any reason, it's very simple to switch back). Basically, if you have a few BOs, with many different paths to follow for each one, you're a much stronger, less predictable player. You can't go 14 hatch or 14 pool/15 hatch every game. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
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Silver_Thor
United States18 Posts
edit: i meant links for within teamliquid | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
The OP is absolutely right when saying "I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this." Darthturtle also makes a very strong point: "If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo." You lose money defending this. It breaks your build order -- say for example you were going for a gateway cybernetic build. Well, one gateway won't make enough Zealots to stop this before roach + queen show up unless it is built around about 9 food which just isn't feasible. So you've just stopped a fast-stalker game, forcing Zealots vs Roaches. And then let's say this same opponent decides cannons are the proper counter -- well, Forge most likely wasn't in his build either. Not to mention these minerals have to be pulled from somewhere (most likely from probes, as the current perception is this is "all in" and in defending an "all in", it doesn't matter if you lose or don't make a few workers, because your opponent is "all in"). But the Zerg IS NOT all in, because the army he makes comes only from the second hatchery (if it even makes it up). Drones are still being produced at the original hatch, so economy is still going strong and you can choose, if you like, to use a 14 pool, 13 extractor expand timing, instead. Regardless, making that forge again disturbs the BO, and the more you rock a Protoss build order, the better off you are. The more you can control what your opponents make (he had to go Zealots, remember? Now you're going Roaches), the better off you are. The more you can contain your opponent in his base while doing your thing, the better off you are. Make your opponent play your game, don't play his. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
I know that this would only happen to me once and never again. Dont get me wrong, its probably a free win for me if i scout it so it dont bother me. What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat. I just really think this is no fun to play against win or lose. As if games these days werent short enough? I cant check links now cos teamliquid search aint working so well with my phone today. Will check again when i get home but if im not mistaken i know of 2 so far that ive read. | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
But I agree wholeheartedly with this: "What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat." If you RELY on cheese to win, you're shit. You get no respect. I'd like people to definitely check out the game against poolninja on metalopolis. He does 2 gateways, 5 Zealots. Even with those forces, my hatchery dies 3/4 the way through my roaches popping out; the Queen doesn't make it lol. He lost 2 Zealots FOR SURE, but I think it was 3. Which matches my hatchery cost. (75+25g)3 is all I lose, but I gain much time, less pressure on me, and a lot more on my opponent. | ||
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Phadt
Sweden92 Posts
I have seen similar cheese done where u build a hatch and then cancel it when ur creep is out to build an evo chamber instead. The evo chamber eventually dies from lack of creep and broodlings spawn. If u do this strat vs terran u can use the broodlings to attack his units and soak up the dmg while u do a baneling bust on his wall to get in virtually unattacked which can give u a big lead if not the win but ofc it's slower than a "normal" baneling bust. Btw this is idd a cheese in that it's an all-in really and if ur in the lower brackets I strongly recomend u learn to macro decently instead of trying to win like this. This would probably not be a cheese tactic u could adjust to fit diamond league standard of play and therefor it is even less worth doing than other cheese because it's basically just a way to get free wins vs ppl who aren't that good at the game, and vs them u should really learn to just play well instead imo. p.s. if ur an insane korean and u hold off early cheese with minimal resources so ur ahead u could prob do that ensnare did to check in that video and do the inbase hatch. | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
The OP is a mid-level Platinum player. I don't think he's doing this to advance leagues or to avoid macro. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
And i play terran not protoss. I would deal with it the same way i deal with any proxy cheese. Its really not that hard. | ||
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GT
Korea (South)141 Posts
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Milith
France10 Posts
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
Still, region will be a problem  ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;EDIT: Oh, you're Terran, nevermind. Marines rofl all over this -.-; | ||
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