Imo it works when pros do it before any1 has ever seen it. And ppl on that lvl of play don't always asume ppl will do some really weird stuff really early and are caught off guard. In ladder u should always play really safe imo and not care about losing a few minerals and actually scout ur base properly etc.
And if OP is only mid plat I'd say he's deffinately doing this to advance leagues or to avoid macro. No offence.
p.s. since protoss wall-in vs zerg most of the time they would see the drone come in, follow it, and make the rush impossible in-base. Doing it outside is another matter but tbh u can 7RR most low to mid diamond protoss if u just get the scout out of there and that is safer than this.
p.p.s. shouldn't u always place pylons on the edges of ur base as protoss vs zerg for nydus worms, drops and muta harass?
On January 03 2011 19:47 theonlyshaft wrote: Exodus, I don't mind you knowing it's coming. The worst thing you can do to stop it is block me from building it with your worker, in which case I expand at my natural. The way I play it, surprise is NOT required
Still, region will be a problem ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;
lol. Thats the complete opposite of how i would deal with it. I wouldnt waste the apm.
On January 03 2011 18:48 eu.exodus wrote: there are so many threads about this already. Why anybody plays this cheesy in the first place is beyond me. Especially when your playing zerg and have got the macro advantage. What do you get out it? I dont get it. Is it because the only way you win is with these lame strats?
This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game?
because about 75% of the matches i play i get cheesed, and even if not, they still do whatever they want because they know Z is "supposed" to play a macro game. so it's nice that some people do this crap, for it to remain a fair game.
(don't get me wrong, i'm very much against cheese)
LOL proxy hatch would work on a person who's lower level than you and even then it's risk but i wouldn't go for it because of the risk of it. Also remember, that is 300 minerals not going into you drone or unit production or a expansion that you can have.
if region wasnt an issue shaft u would qq if spoted, when u wanted me to "play standard' against it, i scouted my main, saw the drone and made sure it didn't do anything fishy, than got yelled at for "scout harassment" i can post replay if anyone would prefer it.
it works at all levels of play due to the element of surprise, most people are not used to looking for proxies in their base against zerg so don't. If the proxy is spoted though, there are a few counters per race that can bring them out of the situation in a lot better position than the zerg that proxied
Thor :/ You kept saying people weren't reacting right, in cluding yourself. I said, okay, I'll go and you can know it's coming, don't change your build til you scout it. Otherwise it's not a valid test if your reaction is correct. Well, we're testing a hatchery proxy build... putting a probe where you know I'm going to build the hatchery does "stop" the strategy, but seeing as this was a TEST of whether you could stop it once it had built 1% (that is, it's down, you immediately see it and react). You didn't do that. So yeah, go ahead, post it if you like. You weren't "scouting base" as you say, you just clicked on my drone and followed it around. Since Drones aren't faster than probes, I couldn't make a hatchery. Test failed.
"there are a few counters per race that can bring them out of the situation in a lot better position than the zerg that proxied"
What are they? And don't tell me about it. Instead, quit taking me off your friends list then spamming me with messages, add me back, and play it against me. THAT is what I wanted to see in our test, not "oh I know how to block someone making a building".
There also seems to be little reason to keep hijacking this thread. The BO is up for the OPer, VODs and replays are provided, and I think enough elaboration has occurred for someone to piece together what to transition into. Again, check the game on Metalopolis vs poolninja if you're interested.
your right shaft, due to your saying this was to post where i had an issue with the strat it has kind of been hijacked and OP i am sorry
Shaft...if u want to know the ways....i will TELL you. There is a skill difference between us so me "showing" won't always work due to that. This is an all-in....and the key to an all-in is it has to do significant damage or your behind...and there is many ways when this is spotted to stop it before it does any significant damage
edit: i never spamed you, try not to feel so special
search for root.catz replays, he does some proxy hatches vs protoss and builds queen roaches which seems to be quite effective some of the time at high level, have a look and see if you can drew any useful lessons from them.
i do proxy hatch very often, not in their base tho. i do it just outside their ramp on xnc to kill their wall with sunkens and get in with mass lings. i think i stole this from a korean replay, it works zvp but not sure about zvt
proxy hatch is like every other proxy, cheese ^^ well terrans can lift off to make it less cheesy, since the buildings are so fast now ... but we have to build a depot so nya. So there is a chance it will work if its not scouted but if it is scouted you will probably fail. Saw it work some times, and someone tryed to spinerush me with a proxy at my natural, ovis and spines is pretty evil. Ended up in my first macro war vs a zerg hehe.
Lost to this in mid/low diamond once when offracing as toss, made me laugh incredibly. It wasnt even inside my base, but he simply took my natural on delta quadrant (which you apperently cant see building if you send a probe straight down), and I didnt see it untill it finished and 3 crawlers were started. really awesome loss, wish they were all like that.
Dunno unless your talking about a really early attack before lair tech. A nydus makes creep too builds faster (although does cost gas). If you just put a hatchery near your oppoent thats at max 4 units constantly attacking from that point while the rest of your units have walk distances. Building a nydus there would allow you to streamline more units quicker. If you are really wanting to put creep outside of your opponents base there is always the hatchery cancellation creep tumor trick.
Lol malph, already posted that one Question though, how'd you make it display as a video like that?
In any case, still not all-in, nor does it rely on poor scouting. People should remove theirself from their bias and explore this. Catz has done this several times against high ranking players who DO SCOUT it, and he still pulls it off -- sure, the rush may fail, but he always ends up winning from the early advantage he GAINS.
In any case, I would agree with everyone it's too risky for standard play. It's much safer to play the normal way. But in best of 3s or even best of 5s, when one game doesn't matter so much, and diversity does... this is a deadly tactic.
At first I thought you meant this as throwing down a hatchery at a base besides your expansion to throw off the enemy, but then I realized you meant to place it in your opponents base. >.>
It's about time people are exploring cheese options for zerg, it could come in handy for tournament play, so people will stop expecting "standard" zerg play, and will have to start compensating for it, like Z has had to do.
It was a ZvZ on Metalopis (4 player map), at the start our overlords spotted each other. Then you know what time it is. Expand and drone up, till one of us put down the Spawning Pool. It was maybe on 18 drones already and i said to him, we can do this till 200/200 and do a mass drone fight. He had to laugh .
But i tried to do something new. I made somewhere random on the map (not in his vision) a Hatchery and i cancelled it. Then there is still 4 spots of creep left, were i made a spawning pool.
He didnt had a spawning pool and i won. Well this was only for fun, and i dont think it will ever work. But it is possible to put buildings on random spots on a map, but it cost extra minerals due the cancel. Secret Spire? There is also one problem! there is no creep arround the building, so it will lose hp. So its like a all in.
On January 03 2011 19:07 theonlyshaft wrote: I still think assuming this is an all-in is a mistake. It can function as a transition when performed correctly. Too many people here are saying "and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack"
The OP is absolutely right when saying "I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this."
Darthturtle also makes a very strong point: "If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo."
You lose money defending this. It breaks your build order -- say for example you were going for a gateway cybernetic build. Well, one gateway won't make enough Zealots to stop this before roach + queen show up unless it is built around about 9 food which just isn't feasible. So you've just stopped a fast-stalker game, forcing Zealots vs Roaches.
And then let's say this same opponent decides cannons are the proper counter -- well, Forge most likely wasn't in his build either. Not to mention these minerals have to be pulled from somewhere (most likely from probes, as the current perception is this is "all in" and in defending an "all in", it doesn't matter if you lose or don't make a few workers, because your opponent is "all in"). But the Zerg IS NOT all in, because the army he makes comes only from the second hatchery (if it even makes it up). Drones are still being produced at the original hatch, so economy is still going strong and you can choose, if you like, to use a 14 pool, 13 extractor expand timing, instead. Regardless, making that forge again disturbs the BO, and the more you rock a Protoss build order, the better off you are. The more you can control what your opponents make (he had to go Zealots, remember? Now you're going Roaches), the better off you are. The more you can contain your opponent in his base while doing your thing, the better off you are. Make your opponent play your game, don't play his.
I think by just looking at cost is not enough. You don't just lose that money, you're technically also losing all the extra larva you would get investing in that hatchery. Not to mention the expansion that you would've secured. There's a little more behind this attack than just money.
However, I don't wanna discredit the build. I actually was very skeptical until I saw a couple of reps and thought it was an actually decent strat, but the issue is the higher in the league you go, the faster the opponent will check for your drone and ultimately already set you back because of the BO you have chose to attempt to throw down a proxy hatch. It's not a huge set back, but something like that in early game can have a lingering effect going into the mid and late game.
cHaNg-sTa January 04 2011 09:09You don't just lose that money, you're technically also losing all the extra larva you would get investing in that hatchery
There's no way you're a Zerg player Our workers are called "Drones", not larva -- larva don't cost money, therefore the only investment is time. And we don't lose Drones, because at that phase of the game, our larva production is slower than our income.
Not to mention the expansion that you would've secured.
With the proxy hatch I discussed, that expansion still gets secured during the melee in my opponent's base or, in the worst case scenario (Toss opening with two gateways), after the inevitable rush to follow.
Other than that bro, you're spot on. For me, it's only an idea. I am a macro zerg to the end.
EPT
ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;
Question though, how'd you make it display as a video like that?
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