I want to know if the proxy hatch is effective or even possible at all. I tried the proxy hatch against a mid platinum level player and I won by a landslide. I'll try and post the replay when I get the chance.
1) There are several reasons why a proxy hatch could be effective and those reasons are what won me the game. First of all, you are already inside the base and can send lings directly into the opponents mineral line. Second, it prevents a wall off because the opponent will focus all his/her efforts on the hatch inside your base. Third, you can put spine crawlers down and really do a lot of damage. Also, if you can get a queen out of the hatch (which I did) then you can make even more lings with no delay to get to the base.
2) This is also a reason why it could be effective but I think that it is very important. You are screwing with the opponents head. When they start to see creep in their base and then see the hatch and lings, they will probably be thinking oh shit what do I do now? Even if it fails, the opponent will be worried, panic, and make bad decisions.
3) Another major point is that you prevent a wall off like I previously mentioned. If you just produce lings, a queen, and a few spines from the proxy hatch, you will probably have some extra minerals like I did. I used those to make lings from my main base and rallied them just outside the enemy's front. Once I felt I had enough lings, I sent them right into his base and killed him. He made a lot of units to try and kill the lings I was sending, the queen, and the spine crawler that I made. He had good macro and it wasn't that he just had no units.
4) Reasons why the proxy hatch won't work. Maps with small bases are not a good place to try proxy hatches. The map that I did it on was scrapyard and I did it in the corner of the enemy's base. Also, If the enemy is spreading structures around the base, or overlords, then I wouldn't recommend trying it with that particular person. Don't underestimate the proxy hatch. A big part of its effectiveness is the fact that no one ever expects to get a hatchery in their base.
TL, I want to ask you guys to post replays of you doing it, whether it works or not. Don't put down this build until you try it. I immediately sent a drone into the corner of the enemy's base and then built the hatch on 14 and then a pool immediately after. Also, post any reasons why you think it will or won't work, but DON'T post how you think that this build is stupid or useless or anything. If it turns out that what I did was just extremely lucky, then I guess that's that. BTW, the game I was describing, it was my first try doing that build. I didn't do that build 50 times till it worked, or even 2. I did it on my first try. I had no experience doing this build and I just made it up as I went along. I didn't have any experience doing this.
i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
Like just about any proxy with any other race, This won't end well as long as your opponent is scouting his base. That being said, fewer people actually scout their base against zerg, and yet, a diligent player would likely scout YOUR base and see that although you don't have an expo showing, you're either late on pool-gas, or something somewhere is being cut.
Proxy hatch is much likelier to work when your opponent isn't quite certain on Zerg timings, I suppose.
well. ITs pretty all in, and the player you are playing wont know what the hell is going on, so you might be able to do a suprise baneling bust by putting it on your proxy hatch (outside their base). Putting it inside their base is utterly bad. Particularily against a terran, because he will just wall and kill it with marines before you can get any units out. Then you have lost your hatch super early. Most good players scout their bases in the early game for cheese, so I dont see it working on anyone decent. Maybe a proxy hatch outside of their base for a speedling/spine push might work.
although I dont think you could do it on their natural at least against terran. It would make terran 2 rax really easy! , If you do it just away from his natural so he doesnt see it will leave your main much more vulnerable while he just walls off extra thick.
You might take a suprise game off someone but i really dont see it working on better players. Although I cant speak for protoss early game because i dont play it. I just dont see it working against terran.
On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote: i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this.
I tried this against a protoss who lost track of my drone in his base while he was doing a two base wall in. The moment he saw it, he was able to stop me. Once the wall in is complete, I can't get in from the outside. But at the same time I can't kill his stuff inside fast enough to get a foothold. And this guy had a lot of other options he didn't try, like cannons, which would have completely halted my advance.
Part of me wants to try it more, just for fun, but I don't think it is a strategy you can pull off if he knows you are doing it.
On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote: i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this.
i wouldn't lose 100 minerals for the chrono zealot- i would just lose the chronoboost that i used. the forge is 150 minerals but ends up getting used for the +1 upgrade later on the second pylon needs to be built anyways but i guess you do have a point if i do lay down 2 cannons would be 300 minerals so i guess if there was no pressure on my ramp then the cannon that is placed there to help against any early aggression- but the zerg player is more that 300 minerals behind because he would only have 1 structure to build drones and units for quiet a while
Someone tried this on me. i saw the hatch going down, i actually did a double take as i thought it was a spine crawler not being placed on creep. I let it finish and then killed it with 3 zealots. it set him far back and a quick rush won the game.
I would argue that this is not plausible at a decent level of play as :
It is easily scoutable. - This could only work if this was not scoutable, and even then it is not plausible.
it takes a decent amount of time to work (hatch at 100 seconds + larva + units) by this time u could get 3 zealtots (without chronoboost) /6 marines at the same cost and time
it is expensive at 300 mins, which is a lot at the start of the game, and i feel that it would be better used as a fast expo.
Even if u were against a forge FE toss and u got in his main, poped the hatch and 6 lings, his workers at his main would outnumber you to the point you wouldn't do any significant damage and he would counter with 2 zealots.
Summary Could this work? sure anything can work, will it work? most likely no.
On January 02 2011 14:55 PmP wrote: Someone tried this on me. i saw the hatch going down, i actually did a double take as i thought it was a spine crawler not being placed on creep form a glitch or something as i would have never suspected a hatch. I let it finish and then killed it with 3 zealots. it set him far back and a quick rush won the game.
I would argue that this is not plausible at a decent level of play as :
It is easily scoutable. - This could only work if this was not scoutable, and even then it is not plausible.
it takes a decent amount of time to work (hatch at 100 seconds + larva + units) by this time u could get 3 zealtots (without chronoboost) /6 marines at the same cost and time
it is expensive at 300 mins, which is a lot at the start of the game, and i feel that it would be better used as a fast expo.
Even if u were against a forge FE toss and u got in his main, poped the hatch and 6 lings, his workers at his main would outnumber you to the point you wouldn't do any significant damage and he would counter with 2 zealots.
Summary Could this work? sure anything can work, will it work? most likely no.
On January 02 2011 13:25 Allred wrote: i think like any proxy it can work but only if your opponent has no clue what to do or happens to not see it in time- if he does no how to react you will probably lose- i play protoss and so i would react by chronoing out my zelots as quick as i can and completely wall off with a forge and get cannons- think about how a protoss player if he scouts that you go hatch then pool often can pylon block your ramp and cannon to stop your expo- the same concept can be done to your hatch if it is scouted before it is completed- and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack
I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this.
i wouldn't lose 100 minerals for the chrono zealot- i would just lose the chronoboost that i used. the forge is 150 minerals but ends up getting used for the +1 upgrade later on the second pylon needs to be built anyways but i guess you do have a point if i do lay down 2 cannons would be 300 minerals so i guess if there was no pressure on my ramp then the cannon that is placed there to help against any early aggression- but the zerg player is more that 300 minerals behind because he would only have 1 structure to build drones and units for quiet a while
If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo.
I've tried it, and it's only worked vs forge fast expand on Scrap station where the Protoss doesn't get a gateway up until after a forge, cannon, and nexus. I one-based hard and build roaches, spine crawlers, and a queen in his main.
If they scout your base at all, though, they will notice that you didn't spend 300 minerals on something visable, and that is pretty suspicious. Hatches also take FOREVER to get up compared to gateways or raxes, so the opponent has a very large window to scout your base and see that you're up to something. If you late-scout a proxy Protoss or Terran player, it can sometimes be too late to adjust. Not so much with a proxy hatch...
I remember seeing an amazing replay once of Check.Prime using one after getting his ramp blocked by cannons. He then got some roaches, a queen, and maybe even a spinecrawler before pushing into the base of the Protoss after he FE'd.
This might not be exactly what people are talking about, but I successfully proxy hatch'd a 2900 diamond a while ago in ZvZ. Here's the replay, enjoy! =) and shoutout to ccStrength <3
This is super annoying to deal with when you are forge expanding. Lost every time they did it to me because I found it too late, and even tho it only took a pylon and 2 cannons to take down, roaches, smartly avoiding the cannons, were in my main mineral line taking out my main nexus and my cannons couldn't chase them.
I will post some replays later, but one of my favorite zerg cheeses is the 10 proxy hatch you build up to 10 workers and then send one out towards your opponents base, if you are playing on a 4p map send the drone out a little bit sooner.
Idea is that you put down the hatchery the second you can after your supply hits 10, then produce a drone / vesp glitch / and then build spawning pool asap, followed by your second overlord, then you can vesp glitch again (your pref) and then save larvae once your spawning pool nears halfway.
From an opponents scouting perspective it looks like you are gong 14 pool, nothing out of the ordinary unless they count the drones. when the hatchery comes in build 1 drone (depending on how close to the ramp the proxy hatch is or if its in base, if its far away then get ling) and 1 queen, + 3 lings from your base and then have fun.
zvp = counters cannon rush from P keep your first over alive so you can sunken the entrance zvt = works very well, but best counter is tanks zvz = you can almost build your sunken in their creep. the timing push comes right before the 7 roach rush if im not mistaken.
On January 02 2011 15:26 village_idiot wrote: Make it at the natural and you can put spine crawler defenses up and contain him. Only problem is void rays.
not at all, the point of the proxy is to produce your first queen from the proxy and spawn extra larva / creep spread into the base. Your opponent cant get voids out without risking you scouting it and by then you can easily pump out a second queen.
Like any proxy strategy, it will likely win if they do not scout it and likely will not win if they do. A lot of players have good base awareness and will see it, but plenty don't. I've lost to it on occasion, but I've also beat it by scouting it.
I like a proxy hatch using 3 roaches and a queen. It's a bit all-in, but generally it requires your opponent to pull off minerals to defend in time -- and since you're droning at your main, it equals out while throwing your opponent off-kilter. If nothing else, their over-reaction will equal what you spent (pylons + cannons + lost probe time + lost macro time). Pretty effective on small rush distance maps like Steppes, actually -- and Zergs don't stand a chance there anyway, so... may as well try something. BTW, there are two spots you can proxy hatch on on Steppes, either above/below your opponent, or actually inside of their base. I prefer the inside-the-base method, because I like to have a Queen there to support my roaches (Zealots don't stand a chance).
ok we've argued over this for about 2 hours in game....please tell me...if this is scouted...especially as protoss how does it work?
the only chance this build has is its not spoted...if its spoted, especially as the drone is making the hatch...this build DOES NOT WORK....and even up to half way through all a Protoss has to do is make a second gateway, stop chronoboosting probes and switch to zealots and deal with the hatch and they're ahead
IF the hatchery is capable of makeing roaches as you kept saying in game than yes i agree THE PERSON DID NOT SCOUT/REACT PROPERLY so the build works, if scouted this should never work
ive done a couple proxy pools, its actually full of lulz, and thats why i did it..i won like 75% of them, im assuming kuz they keep looking for expo's instead of a proxy pool
If an opponent stops chrono boosting probes and is forced down a zealot path, I would think a Zerg who has used this opportunity to drone in his main would be ahead. Roaches rape Zealots, so the Zerg is in a strong defensive position, has lost 75m+25g (x3) + 150 + 300. He sacrifices no drone time, however.
The protoss has to make 3 Zealots to counter, but such a small number, depending on the time @ which the hatchery was scouted (if after half, this is DEFINITIVELY true) will still allow the first wave (again, 3 roaches + a queen) to spawn before being taken out. At least 2 Zealots will die, which likely means 5-6 Zealots have been made to stop this. +No Chrono probes, +some players when harassed this early forget to build probes in dealing with it.
300+150+225 = 775 minerals + 75 gas. That's how much this attack costs, assuming only one wave spawns. 5-6 Zealots made in time will usually need 2 gateways, but even assuming just one, the Zerg is down 175-275 minerals + 75 gas, not even counting probes distracted, or lost probe mining time (if you don't hit the hatchery with 3-4 before the first zealot, you won't stand a chance).
That cost is kind of important, but remember: your opponent has been forced straight to Zealots, which SUCK vs Roaches, so you're in a great position to expand. The protoss can't build 5-6 zealots, keep making probes, make a core, and do everything else they're going to have to do. They don't have that much money. Not to mention Zealots take FOREVER to build.
Replays are provided, though I will warn everyone, these games involve Silver, Gold & Bronze level people. I have tested it against Platinum, I don't think I've managed to test it against Diamond though. I look forward to those tests
I would argue the only person to defend this correctly is poolninja on Metalopolis. BTW, I include the Steppes game as a variation for fun. It fails quite epicly xD
after being beat by this strat on Metalopolis and Scrap Station due to not scouting i went against the same person "knowing" it was coming and got yelled at for "scout harassment" when i noticed there was a drone in my base
my question is, if spotted does anyone think this build stands a chance at all? my personal opinion is if scouted within seeing a drone in your base - 3/4 built...and maybe even after with proper reaction/micro...this build will not work
i understand if the hatch is allowed to build it is extremely difficult if not impossible to survive but the best way to defeat any cheese/all-in is to a.) not let it happen or b.) scout it and be prepared and id like to think any plat+ player would notice something like that and at most would only lose units up to the amount it cost to make the hatch and the 3 units it produces (if the hatch somehow survives that long)
there are so many threads about this already. Why anybody plays this cheesy in the first place is beyond me. Especially when your playing zerg and have got the macro advantage. What do you get out it? I dont get it. Is it because the only way you win is with these lame strats?
This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game?
Honestly, I started using it for best of 3s on maps I don't like. Steppes in particular. The reason to do it? It deters a Chrono-boosted Zealot (very hard to deal with as Zerg) being pushed out, or any kind of Zealot rush.
Exodus, my question to you is, what happens when someone with skill uses this? I'm against people who RELY on cheese -- that is, they can't get wins any other way. But players who use limited amounts of cheese, but few all-ins (which destroy late game potential)? Well, I think those players shine. This is NOT an all in, because the entire time, you're building drones at your base. The 300 you "save" is pretty standard (the strategy I posted is a deviation off of Idra 15 pool / 16 hatch; if the Hatchery doesn't begin for any reason, it's very simple to switch back). Basically, if you have a few BOs, with many different paths to follow for each one, you're a much stronger, less predictable player.
You can't go 14 hatch or 14 pool/15 hatch every game.
exodus i only posted here cuz it was the only thread given to me by theonlyshaft and i fail so didnt look for others lol, if u happen to have links to the others so we can look at them i'd appreciate it...if not i'll just be not lazy and look for them in the morning lol
I still think assuming this is an all-in is a mistake. It can function as a transition when performed correctly. Too many people here are saying "and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack"
The OP is absolutely right when saying "I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this."
Darthturtle also makes a very strong point: "If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo."
You lose money defending this. It breaks your build order -- say for example you were going for a gateway cybernetic build. Well, one gateway won't make enough Zealots to stop this before roach + queen show up unless it is built around about 9 food which just isn't feasible. So you've just stopped a fast-stalker game, forcing Zealots vs Roaches.
And then let's say this same opponent decides cannons are the proper counter -- well, Forge most likely wasn't in his build either. Not to mention these minerals have to be pulled from somewhere (most likely from probes, as the current perception is this is "all in" and in defending an "all in", it doesn't matter if you lose or don't make a few workers, because your opponent is "all in"). But the Zerg IS NOT all in, because the army he makes comes only from the second hatchery (if it even makes it up). Drones are still being produced at the original hatch, so economy is still going strong and you can choose, if you like, to use a 14 pool, 13 extractor expand timing, instead. Regardless, making that forge again disturbs the BO, and the more you rock a Protoss build order, the better off you are. The more you can control what your opponents make (he had to go Zealots, remember? Now you're going Roaches), the better off you are. The more you can contain your opponent in his base while doing your thing, the better off you are. Make your opponent play your game, don't play his.
agreed but still. Its something that only works because you are mostly clueless until you see the creep spread.
I know that this would only happen to me once and never again. Dont get me wrong, its probably a free win for me if i scout it so it dont bother me.
What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat.
I just really think this is no fun to play against win or lose. As if games these days werent short enough?
I cant check links now cos teamliquid search aint working so well with my phone today. Will check again when i get home but if im not mistaken i know of 2 so far that ive read.
"I know that this would only happen to me once and never again. Dont get me wrong, its probably a free win for me if i scout it so it dont bother me." I'd really love to play you, to be honest, and test that sometime. Because I don't think it'll be an easy win even if you do scout. Worst case scenario on scout is you get 3 Zealots and destroy me before it's up, but to do that in time, you need 2 gateways or to spend all chronos on it or to build the gateway too early to begin with, blindly.
But I agree wholeheartedly with this: "What does bother me is that people in lower leagues reading this thread getting up to platinum and thinking they are the shit because they can win with 5apm and a stupid strat." If you RELY on cheese to win, you're shit. You get no respect.
I'd like people to definitely check out the game against poolninja on metalopolis. He does 2 gateways, 5 Zealots. Even with those forces, my hatchery dies 3/4 the way through my roaches popping out; the Queen doesn't make it lol. He lost 2 Zealots FOR SURE, but I think it was 3. Which matches my hatchery cost. (75+25g)3 is all I lose, but I gain much time, less pressure on me, and a lot more on my opponent.
I don't like this idea too much just because it's so hard to hide on most maps. Scrap seems the easiest but it would more be a strat vs protoss imo and most (at least many?) protoss wall-in their main and nat which prevents ur reinforcements from comming through, but I might be wrong cause I don't play protoss except for a few games a week to keep myself updated on the race.
I have seen similar cheese done where u build a hatch and then cancel it when ur creep is out to build an evo chamber instead. The evo chamber eventually dies from lack of creep and broodlings spawn. If u do this strat vs terran u can use the broodlings to attack his units and soak up the dmg while u do a baneling bust on his wall to get in virtually unattacked which can give u a big lead if not the win but ofc it's slower than a "normal" baneling bust.
Btw this is idd a cheese in that it's an all-in really and if ur in the lower brackets I strongly recomend u learn to macro decently instead of trying to win like this. This would probably not be a cheese tactic u could adjust to fit diamond league standard of play and therefor it is even less worth doing than other cheese because it's basically just a way to get free wins vs ppl who aren't that good at the game, and vs them u should really learn to just play well instead imo.
p.s. if ur an insane korean and u hold off early cheese with minimal resources so ur ahead u could prob do that ensnare did to check in that video and do the inbase hatch.
Then Phadt, why does it work at high levels of play as well? Leenockfou won a game on Steppes of War doing a proxy hatch OUTSIDE of his opponents base in GSL 3 (his was all-in); rootcatz does this often, but I provided a VOD of him raping onegatored with it. Most proxy hatcheries are all in -- if you're trying to re-supply with your main, it's DEFINITELY all in -- but that doesn't mean all are Phadt.
The OP is a mid-level Platinum player. I don't think he's doing this to advance leagues or to avoid macro.
Exodus, I don't mind you knowing it's coming. The worst thing you can do to stop it is block me from building it with your worker, in which case I expand at my natural. The way I play it, surprise is NOT required
Still, region will be a problem ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;
EDIT: Oh, you're Terran, nevermind. Marines rofl all over this -.-;
Imo it works when pros do it before any1 has ever seen it. And ppl on that lvl of play don't always asume ppl will do some really weird stuff really early and are caught off guard. In ladder u should always play really safe imo and not care about losing a few minerals and actually scout ur base properly etc.
And if OP is only mid plat I'd say he's deffinately doing this to advance leagues or to avoid macro. No offence.
p.s. since protoss wall-in vs zerg most of the time they would see the drone come in, follow it, and make the rush impossible in-base. Doing it outside is another matter but tbh u can 7RR most low to mid diamond protoss if u just get the scout out of there and that is safer than this.
p.p.s. shouldn't u always place pylons on the edges of ur base as protoss vs zerg for nydus worms, drops and muta harass?
On January 03 2011 19:47 theonlyshaft wrote: Exodus, I don't mind you knowing it's coming. The worst thing you can do to stop it is block me from building it with your worker, in which case I expand at my natural. The way I play it, surprise is NOT required
Still, region will be a problem ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;
lol. Thats the complete opposite of how i would deal with it. I wouldnt waste the apm.
On January 03 2011 18:48 eu.exodus wrote: there are so many threads about this already. Why anybody plays this cheesy in the first place is beyond me. Especially when your playing zerg and have got the macro advantage. What do you get out it? I dont get it. Is it because the only way you win is with these lame strats?
This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game?
because about 75% of the matches i play i get cheesed, and even if not, they still do whatever they want because they know Z is "supposed" to play a macro game. so it's nice that some people do this crap, for it to remain a fair game.
(don't get me wrong, i'm very much against cheese)
LOL proxy hatch would work on a person who's lower level than you and even then it's risk but i wouldn't go for it because of the risk of it. Also remember, that is 300 minerals not going into you drone or unit production or a expansion that you can have.
if region wasnt an issue shaft u would qq if spoted, when u wanted me to "play standard' against it, i scouted my main, saw the drone and made sure it didn't do anything fishy, than got yelled at for "scout harassment" i can post replay if anyone would prefer it.
it works at all levels of play due to the element of surprise, most people are not used to looking for proxies in their base against zerg so don't. If the proxy is spoted though, there are a few counters per race that can bring them out of the situation in a lot better position than the zerg that proxied
Thor :/ You kept saying people weren't reacting right, in cluding yourself. I said, okay, I'll go and you can know it's coming, don't change your build til you scout it. Otherwise it's not a valid test if your reaction is correct. Well, we're testing a hatchery proxy build... putting a probe where you know I'm going to build the hatchery does "stop" the strategy, but seeing as this was a TEST of whether you could stop it once it had built 1% (that is, it's down, you immediately see it and react). You didn't do that. So yeah, go ahead, post it if you like. You weren't "scouting base" as you say, you just clicked on my drone and followed it around. Since Drones aren't faster than probes, I couldn't make a hatchery. Test failed.
"there are a few counters per race that can bring them out of the situation in a lot better position than the zerg that proxied"
What are they? And don't tell me about it. Instead, quit taking me off your friends list then spamming me with messages, add me back, and play it against me. THAT is what I wanted to see in our test, not "oh I know how to block someone making a building".
There also seems to be little reason to keep hijacking this thread. The BO is up for the OPer, VODs and replays are provided, and I think enough elaboration has occurred for someone to piece together what to transition into. Again, check the game on Metalopolis vs poolninja if you're interested.
your right shaft, due to your saying this was to post where i had an issue with the strat it has kind of been hijacked and OP i am sorry
Shaft...if u want to know the ways....i will TELL you. There is a skill difference between us so me "showing" won't always work due to that. This is an all-in....and the key to an all-in is it has to do significant damage or your behind...and there is many ways when this is spotted to stop it before it does any significant damage
edit: i never spamed you, try not to feel so special
search for root.catz replays, he does some proxy hatches vs protoss and builds queen roaches which seems to be quite effective some of the time at high level, have a look and see if you can drew any useful lessons from them.
i do proxy hatch very often, not in their base tho. i do it just outside their ramp on xnc to kill their wall with sunkens and get in with mass lings. i think i stole this from a korean replay, it works zvp but not sure about zvt
proxy hatch is like every other proxy, cheese ^^ well terrans can lift off to make it less cheesy, since the buildings are so fast now ... but we have to build a depot so nya. So there is a chance it will work if its not scouted but if it is scouted you will probably fail. Saw it work some times, and someone tryed to spinerush me with a proxy at my natural, ovis and spines is pretty evil. Ended up in my first macro war vs a zerg hehe.
Lost to this in mid/low diamond once when offracing as toss, made me laugh incredibly. It wasnt even inside my base, but he simply took my natural on delta quadrant (which you apperently cant see building if you send a probe straight down), and I didnt see it untill it finished and 3 crawlers were started. really awesome loss, wish they were all like that.
Dunno unless your talking about a really early attack before lair tech. A nydus makes creep too builds faster (although does cost gas). If you just put a hatchery near your oppoent thats at max 4 units constantly attacking from that point while the rest of your units have walk distances. Building a nydus there would allow you to streamline more units quicker. If you are really wanting to put creep outside of your opponents base there is always the hatchery cancellation creep tumor trick.
Lol malph, already posted that one Question though, how'd you make it display as a video like that?
In any case, still not all-in, nor does it rely on poor scouting. People should remove theirself from their bias and explore this. Catz has done this several times against high ranking players who DO SCOUT it, and he still pulls it off -- sure, the rush may fail, but he always ends up winning from the early advantage he GAINS.
In any case, I would agree with everyone it's too risky for standard play. It's much safer to play the normal way. But in best of 3s or even best of 5s, when one game doesn't matter so much, and diversity does... this is a deadly tactic.
At first I thought you meant this as throwing down a hatchery at a base besides your expansion to throw off the enemy, but then I realized you meant to place it in your opponents base. >.>
It's about time people are exploring cheese options for zerg, it could come in handy for tournament play, so people will stop expecting "standard" zerg play, and will have to start compensating for it, like Z has had to do.
It was a ZvZ on Metalopis (4 player map), at the start our overlords spotted each other. Then you know what time it is. Expand and drone up, till one of us put down the Spawning Pool. It was maybe on 18 drones already and i said to him, we can do this till 200/200 and do a mass drone fight. He had to laugh .
But i tried to do something new. I made somewhere random on the map (not in his vision) a Hatchery and i cancelled it. Then there is still 4 spots of creep left, were i made a spawning pool.
He didnt had a spawning pool and i won. Well this was only for fun, and i dont think it will ever work. But it is possible to put buildings on random spots on a map, but it cost extra minerals due the cancel. Secret Spire? There is also one problem! there is no creep arround the building, so it will lose hp. So its like a all in.
On January 03 2011 19:07 theonlyshaft wrote: I still think assuming this is an all-in is a mistake. It can function as a transition when performed correctly. Too many people here are saying "and you will not only be far behind from either losing the 300 minerals or having to cancel it and get your natural up- in which case the protoss player should be able to crush you with a simple 4 gate push with +1 attack"
The OP is absolutely right when saying "I don't think that what you said is entirely true. First of all, how often do you scout your base against zerg for 1. Second of all, I wouldn't be down 300 minerals if you actually do what you said you would. If you chrono a zealot, then that's 100 mins. Forge, 150. Pylon near hatch 100. 2 cannons. 300. I would have to make a ton of ton of lings and lose them for me to actually lose money doing this."
Darthturtle also makes a very strong point: "If you go out of your way to build an extra forge and cannons that you didn't originally have at that stage in your build, then that's setting you back money. You can't say that since you'll use it eventually, then it's not a setback. That's like building ten barracks off one base and then starting your expo."
You lose money defending this. It breaks your build order -- say for example you were going for a gateway cybernetic build. Well, one gateway won't make enough Zealots to stop this before roach + queen show up unless it is built around about 9 food which just isn't feasible. So you've just stopped a fast-stalker game, forcing Zealots vs Roaches.
And then let's say this same opponent decides cannons are the proper counter -- well, Forge most likely wasn't in his build either. Not to mention these minerals have to be pulled from somewhere (most likely from probes, as the current perception is this is "all in" and in defending an "all in", it doesn't matter if you lose or don't make a few workers, because your opponent is "all in"). But the Zerg IS NOT all in, because the army he makes comes only from the second hatchery (if it even makes it up). Drones are still being produced at the original hatch, so economy is still going strong and you can choose, if you like, to use a 14 pool, 13 extractor expand timing, instead. Regardless, making that forge again disturbs the BO, and the more you rock a Protoss build order, the better off you are. The more you can control what your opponents make (he had to go Zealots, remember? Now you're going Roaches), the better off you are. The more you can contain your opponent in his base while doing your thing, the better off you are. Make your opponent play your game, don't play his.
I think by just looking at cost is not enough. You don't just lose that money, you're technically also losing all the extra larva you would get investing in that hatchery. Not to mention the expansion that you would've secured. There's a little more behind this attack than just money.
However, I don't wanna discredit the build. I actually was very skeptical until I saw a couple of reps and thought it was an actually decent strat, but the issue is the higher in the league you go, the faster the opponent will check for your drone and ultimately already set you back because of the BO you have chose to attempt to throw down a proxy hatch. It's not a huge set back, but something like that in early game can have a lingering effect going into the mid and late game.
cHaNg-sTa January 04 2011 09:09You don't just lose that money, you're technically also losing all the extra larva you would get investing in that hatchery
There's no way you're a Zerg player Our workers are called "Drones", not larva -- larva don't cost money, therefore the only investment is time. And we don't lose Drones, because at that phase of the game, our larva production is slower than our income.
Not to mention the expansion that you would've secured.
With the proxy hatch I discussed, that expansion still gets secured during the melee in my opponent's base or, in the worst case scenario (Toss opening with two gateways), after the inevitable rush to follow.
Other than that bro, you're spot on. For me, it's only an idea. I am a macro zerg to the end.
I've been experimenting with a proxy hatch strategy ZvP on some maps (like xel naga). I do double extractor trick, send the 10th drone to their natural, and build a hatch there. Pool at 11, overlord, extractor trick, drones to 13, and then lings rallied to his ramp, while a queen and a drone builds at the hatch in his nat. I put down a crawler and a tumor and attempt to break his ramp with the lings with queen and crawler backup. Very effective, I've found. Also, seldom scouted since most scout early with a probe and then don't send anything outside their base for awhile. Interested to know what the rest of you think. It does badly against forge first if scouted, but it seems difficult to hold with other builds - with a cyber core they will generally have a zealot and a sentry or stalker when you start the attack.
Edit: Sometimes you end up containing with crawlers and you can mine and macro at your second base. Haven't had it happen enough to know what to do then but I've won going hydras with nydus after the contain. DTs and air are a threat.
There's no way you're a Zerg player Our workers are called "Drones", not larva -- larva don't cost money, therefore the only investment is time. And we don't lose Drones, because at that phase of the game, our larva production is slower than our income.
i think u need to work on your terminology and understanding of the way things work Shaft. Larva are what allow u to create drones and any kind of attacking unit, so larva, how much you have and what you make with them is extremly important. Larva may be "free" but without them you are unable to do anything
by making the hatch and queen in your opponents base you make it so your only capable of makeing up to 3 things at a time in your main, so if your just droneing up there as u suggest any counter attack would devastate you due to not haveing a queen to make the larva you need for attacking units as it would have died with the proxy
cHaNg-sTa January 04 2011 09:09You don't just lose that money, you're technically also losing all the extra larva you would get investing in that hatchery
There's no way you're a Zerg player Our workers are called "Drones", not larva -- larva don't cost money, therefore the only investment is time. And we don't lose Drones, because at that phase of the game, our larva production is slower than our income.
Not to mention the expansion that you would've secured.
With the proxy hatch I discussed, that expansion still gets secured during the melee in my opponent's base or, in the worst case scenario (Toss opening with two gateways), after the inevitable rush to follow.
Other than that bro, you're spot on. For me, it's only an idea. I am a macro zerg to the end.
Well, I said larva because I actually did mean larva (I am indeed a Zerg player). You lose half the amount of larva that you would normally have and thus just like you said, the larva production is slower than the income since you're sacking a hatch and queen. Larva don't cost money, but they're still valuable. It's similar (though not as drastic) to saying that since mules don't cost money, it's ok to lose them. You're losing larva that produce everything from drones to units. Just clearing that up.
It's vaild but not very good. Anyone claiming to have positive stats using this is a fucking liar, I'm talking to you JTouche. If you scout(which any good player 2000+ will) it's so ridiculously easy to deal with if only you know how (or just by having common sense)
Thor, a queen is of course placed in the main as well. It's just not outlined in the BO because that's a transition towards something else (notably, my style of play) and not relevant to the OP.
Okay chang, I misunderstood bro But when you actually use the strategy, you'll realize that the timing works out kind of efficiently. 9/10 you get your overlord, you get 10/10 drones. Then you pool 2-3 larva (technically it's like 2.75), pop two more drones out (or 3, if your timing was a bit off earlier). Then your larva regenerate one at a time, each becoming a drone.
The delay inherent to making the proxy hatch allows you just enough time to stock 3 larva. You're not losing out on that.
EDIT: OMG, I finally figured out what you meant lol. Were you referring to the extra larva (to turn to drones) from the expansion you chose not to build? If so man, I'm sorry, and you're absolutely right. Generally, when I play, I choose not to use any kind of early expansion against Protoss because I find it impossible to stop a Zealot rush in those circumstances. So for me, it's no net loss at all and I didn't consider another point of view.
On January 03 2011 18:48 eu.exodus wrote: there are so many threads about this already. Why anybody plays this cheesy in the first place is beyond me. Especially when your playing zerg and have got the macro advantage. What do you get out it? I dont get it. Is it because the only way you win is with these lame strats?
This imho opinion doesnt even merit discussion. Just gives more people with no skill free wins. Is this really how you guys want to play the game?
I play random and really enjoy playing aggressively as zerg. Sure zerg has the macro advantage and most diamond level players expect me to play macro style as zerg but I open aggressively usually to throw my opponent off and keep him in his base so I can drone harder while worrying a little less about being attacked.
OT: I honestly don't see a proxy hatch working if your opponent scouts it. Usually I run a worker around my base at the 12 supply mark to check for proxies so this would probably never work on me but if not scouted early enough I can see it being deadly and not too allin provided you drone sufficiently at your main hatch.
On January 04 2011 11:59 theonlyshaft wrote: Thor, a queen is of course placed in the main as well. It's just not outlined in the BO because that's a transition towards something else (notably, my style of play) and not relevant to the OP.
Okay chang, I misunderstood bro But when you actually use the strategy, you'll realize that the timing works out kind of efficiently. 9/10 you get your overlord, you get 10/10 drones. Then you pool 2-3 larva (technically it's like 2.75), pop two more drones out (or 3, if your timing was a bit off earlier). Then your larva regenerate one at a time, each becoming a drone.
The delay inherent to making the proxy hatch allows you just enough time to stock 3 larva. You're not losing out on that.
EDIT: OMG, I finally figured out what you meant lol. Were you referring to the extra larva (to turn to drones) from the expansion you chose not to build? If so man, I'm sorry, and you're absolutely right. Generally, when I play, I choose not to use any kind of early expansion against Protoss because I find it impossible to stop a Zealot rush in those circumstances. So for me, it's no net loss at all and I didn't consider another point of view.
Yes, that's what I meant lol. I pretty much 14/15hatch every MU except on certain maps in ZvZ. So I'm used to working with 2 hatches. It's all good.
I have a not-so-fond memory of facing this once while I was in bronze (only low-diamond terran now). There was no element of surprise. I saw it go down, I just had no freaking idea of what to do about it, and wound up losing.
Anyhoo, if scouted early enough, why not treat it like a cannon rush, and pull 5 workers to attack it as it builds? A hatchery has 1500 health, and builds in 100 game seconds, meaning it gains 15 health per game second while building. Workers do 5 damage every 1.5 game seconds, or 3.33 dmg/s, so 5 workers will take it down faster than it builds. Sure, it'd be annoying to lose mining time, but it costs a bit to cancel the hatch as well, no?
This is a legit cheese strat. I've effectively used it against platinum players, though I've never pulled it off vs. Diamond yet. THough I did hear about a sick game between ddoro and a zerg player where the proxy hatch followed by spine crawlers saved his life vs. a cannon offensive.
EPT
ETA on x-realm? ^_^;;
Question though, how'd you make it display as a video like that?
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