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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
Tanks cost more and do less damage. another thing is in BW TvP was often considered imba (it wasn't but it always felt easier for toss to win). The marauder despite how much i hate that stupid unit is basically a gift from Blizzard so using it is probably the best thing to do. I guess if your bellow 2k diamond and want to do this like i did nothings gunna stop you but in Starcraft it's always best to follow the pros. They are Pros after all and not scrubs. | ||
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paradisefar
Canada20 Posts
I think they got used to bio so much that they don't know the correct response to mech. They just save up an army and think they can roll the terran mech like they do to fast expo bio. I highly doubt this build can go beyond the 2500 diamond level. And I also doubt any decent protoss players would make the same mistakes after a game like this. The hard counter to this build for p is PATIENCE, which is constantly denying terran's expo while expanding themselves and gain the economic advantage. P.S. I think it's a bit biased when you only post the winning games, which only shows the advantage of this build but not the disadvantage. I didn't see any well executed 4 gate play in the replays(1 with only stalkers which could have been much better with some sentry ff casted) and didn't see good early blink stalker play either. Most of what protoss did are frontal attacks into siege tanks... | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote: It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Good luck moving out with an insanely small number of tanks and getting boned by any mediocre protoss. I obviously had no idea what I was talking about, so i'll let you handle the rest of the mech discussion for me, since you obviously know more than me about it! I think I understand why lots of the upper tier players don't bother posting here anymore now  peace out. | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On January 02 2011 06:04 paradisefar wrote: I watched all the replays, and honestly I don't think it's this build that won the game, it's the inexperience of the protoss players with such build that lost them the game. Seriously, I think they got used to the frontal battle advantage in tvp that they have already forgotten the concept of contain and expand to immobile/turtle terran. I saw lots of semi 1 base all-ins, semi 2 base all-ins(expanding only when they fail the frontal assault and lost most army) and very very late upgrades. Getting expansions later than terran is what they never should have done because of terran's MULE. I think they got used to bio so much that they don't know the correct response to mech. They just save up an army and think they can roll the terran mech like they do to fast expo bio. I highly doubt this build can go beyond the 2500 diamond level. And I also doubt any decent protoss players would make the same mistakes after a game like this. The hard counter to this build for p is PATIENCE, which is constantly denying terran's expo while expanding themselves and gain the economic advantage. P.S. I think it's a bit biased when you only post the winning games, which only shows the advantage of this build but not the disadvantage. I didn't see any well executed 4 gate play in the replays(1 with only stalkers which could have been much better with some sentry ff casted) and didn't see good early blink stalker play either. Most of what protoss did are frontal attacks into siege tanks... Well if you didn't read the post above yours i say fine. Forget it. Mech is stupid. And it's not biased me only posting winning games. It's all I was asked to post. Don't like it don't bloody do it then. Also get you're facts straight. Mech is a "strategy" not a "build" The 1 rax FE i know for a fact is a good opening build because i saw MakaPrime use it against protoss and he's better than probably 90% of any Terrans on this forum. | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
The timing ussually comes b4 you can get your first tank out and just with marines you cant handle zealot stalker. You bunker will be near your choke, so no where near to help defend. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
On January 02 2011 06:25 Raiznhell wrote: The 1 rax FE i know for a fact is a good opening build because i saw MakaPrime use it against protoss and he's better than probably 90% of any Terrans on this forum. Understatement of the bloody century right here. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
This mass tank composition has its weaknesses, but at its core it is an army that the enemy is TOTALLY UNABLE TO DEFEAT heads up without radically altering their unit composition to something very, very nonstandard, like hardcore mass immortal or void ray. Both of these units, it occurs to me, are vulnerable to the same terran unit: the marine. Hmmmm.... In your replays what I'm seeing is an overcommitment to tanks that produces an overly immobile army. However it seems like much of the benefit of having the tanks can be gained without having quite so many of them. In many of the major battles, your tank line is so awesomely deep that the ones at the back never even get the chance to fire. This is very secure, but inefficient, a bit like making too many missile turrets. The demonstration I see in your replays is that a big tank ball with bunkers in front is actually a practical way to hold off a standard mixed protoss composition that they will typically build when you are fighting them with bio. So the puzzle is how do we push the protoss into getting a composition that will make them unable to attack into the tank line, whereas left to their own devices they would expand all over the map and build immortals or even carriers? The reason why we are seeing such extensive use of bio is its mobility, particularly when used in conjunction with medivacs. The ability to run about the map, and to drop infantry in the enemy base is too strong to give up. The problem is that in a heads up fight against colossi and storm the infantry stand no chance no matter how many you have, so big armies will always lose to the protoss in the endgame. How do we avoid this problem? To kill two birds with one stone- have enough tank line that the enemy army will not be able to break it cost effectively. At the same time, harass with small groups of infantry with dropships, emphasizing marines. A dropship or two, escorted by vikings in the wings, can be used to harass as the tank line holds the home front. Blue flame hellions can be included in the drop raids if desired, and if the terrain permits, siege tanks might even be dropped in key locations, such as the ledge on lost temple. The harassment stops the protoss from just expanding everywhere, and even dampens his economy. Using bio offensively forces a mixed composition- he can't mass immortals or void rays- and the resulting composition will be ineffective against tanks. How's that for an idea? | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
On January 02 2011 06:15 avilo wrote: Good luck moving out with an insanely small number of tanks and getting boned by any mediocre protoss. I obviously had no idea what I was talking about, so i'll let you handle the rest of the mech discussion for me, since you obviously no more than me about it! I think I understand why lots of the upper tier players don't bother posting here anymore now peace out.You seem to give up on things rather easily, avilo. Perhaps that's a trait that characterizes you? Regarding the content of your post, obviously if the protoss is staying on 2 bases nobody is forcing you to move out right when the cc finishes into a giant protoss death ball. However, when it does become safe to slow push out to your third, you will have a much faster economy than the P. Not to mention your tank count doesn't actually suffer from taking a fast third, it's the marines or hellions that lose numbers ( the mineral sinks). This means your tank count doesn't actually slow down by taking a fast third CC. | ||
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
On January 02 2011 07:12 HiHiByeBye wrote: im at 2200 T. From experience, warp prism + 3 WG shut down any sort of 1-1-1 pretty easily. \ The timing ussually comes b4 you can get your first tank out and just with marines you cant handle zealot stalker. You bunker will be near your choke, so no where near to help defend. When protosses rush for warp prisms or blink stalkers that quickly I've played with the idea of building a backup bunker in my mineral line for this sort of thing until the threat passes and you have enough forces to survive it. I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the number of tanks the terran should have though. At least 1 tank if not more should be out by the time a warp prism gets to your base... It's pretty standard to get a tank before starport if you're doing 1-1-1 for safety. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
and with this build you must scout more... really... more scouting is needed with this. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
This is not broodwar. In broodwar, tanks killed almost everything in less than 4 shots, most less than 3. It takes something like 14 or 15 shots from a tank to kill an immortal in SC2, 5 to kill a zealot, 8 to kill a colossus, 11(!) to kill an archon. Almost any unit combination a Protoss chooses will break mech. The only thing mech is remotely good against is a pure stalker army, and toss players never make those against Terran because Marauders already kill them better than the pathetic SC2 tanks could ever hope to. Compare the tank to the marauder. In nearly every way, the marauder is a better and more versatile unit. Pair that with the synergy with marines and ghosts and you'll see why bio is so much better than mech. Sheer DPS alone justifies the decision to use one over the other. Tanks are 25% more gas-heavy than they were in broodwar. Gas is harder to obtain now as it takes double the workers, and 50 more minerals on that extra refinery. Early pushes are stronger now, and more easily held with bio than mech (in fact, it's impossible to hold most all-ins with mech). Protoss air dominates now, not just lategame carriers or arbiters. Voidray builds give bio a run for its money, but they completely STOMP mech. Phoenixes go from viable support against bio to incredibly versatile and effective against mech. Carriers up their destruction 3 fold: with so much gas invested in tanks, no real AA threat exists. HT tech works amazingly despite the nerf to storm. The nerf was balanced by the warp-in ability, so a toss who goes heavy into HTs and gateways will have an ability to reinforce better than you. The Protoss will then win in a war of attrition, the very kind mech itself was intended to dominate. On the other hand, DT tech forces wasted money. Turrets, thinning of defense, attention, scans; while your DT using opponent takes the map and an economic lead. Unfortunately, scans are now intimately tied to the Terran economy, while engineering bays can no longer spot (and turrets are more expensive too!) And finally we have robo tech. Immortals are quite literally antimech. If I went 4 robo 1 gate off two bases and never made any unit out of my gateway I'd probably still win against a mech user. Immortals have the ability to 3 shot a tank with upgrades. In numbers, only ghosts, stimmed MM and banshees can effectively take them down. Off four Chronoed robos, it'd be hard to keep the numbers low. Colossi are pretty scary too. Vikings are harder to get when you've invested gas in buildings and units that 1.suck and 2.don't shoot air to begin with. In a bad engagement your only choice is to suicide because tanks are helpless when you're sieges and you get outmaneuvered. At least bio can run when colossi engage, giving free shots to the Vikings as the toss attempts a reposition. | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On December 30 2010 17:55 Raiznhell wrote: I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die. Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in. love how you don't mention turret's gas cost, and warp prisms don t die fast at all. I have no idea why you would think this. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On January 02 2011 08:43 Soulish wrote: love how you don't mention turret's gas cost, and warp prisms don t die fast at all. I have no idea why you would think this. Turrets don't cost any gas? lol They are 100 minerals. That's it. unless you buy Terran building upgrades you don't spend any gas on turrets. And yes Warp Prisms do die very fast. they take 5 or 6 shots from a missile turret and those things fire super fast not to mention all the marines I'd have lying about. | ||
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RaizSucksLOL
United States2 Posts
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On January 02 2011 09:54 RaizSucksLOL wrote: check your inbox  LOL well done Civets you have proven that you are the lowest of the low. You made a dummy account on TL, searched for me, and PMed me huge harassment paragraphs. You really got nuthin better to do but make me laugh. | ||
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
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RaizSucksLOL
United States2 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote: It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p | ||
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