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Meh I'm not out to prove anything except to like low levels (including me) that say things like X strategy is IMPOSSIBLE. Well if you're saying that I don't know how you can play Starcraft especially if you're not a Professional. Even Korean professionals do kooky things that win against other professionals. Example JSLZenith (or somebody on the Zenith team) was owning Zergs by just making masses of Ravens. It was cool to watch and you would never think just massing 1 spell caster unit would be that effective. Like even C+ and B level players in BW never always did what the pro-league players would. You can still see some pretty odd stuff on iCCup.
I don't think or expect any type of revolution of Mech play like I'm not fantasy  .
Mech is obviously weaker that massed Marauders unfortunately. Biomech seems to be the thing recently anyways :/.
Personally I'm not satisfied unless my Protoss opponents die in a sea of tank shells rather than being pelted by odd little grenades that don't blow up yet magically slow things down shot by obnoxious little men in fat suits lol XD.
But I have had people play against me lately knowing what I'm going for before the game starts and they've managed to serve me so...
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tvp mech is great when you're 1 basing vs a toss
I like to all in once 2-3 tanks are out with a raven banshee and marine scv ball very effective vs fe
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On January 02 2011 12:12 lGy wrote:
tvp mech is great when you're 1 basing vs a toss
I like to all in once 2-3 tanks are out with a raven banshee and marine scv ball very effective vs fe
Whats this like compared to Marine/Banshee/Marauder/Raven?
I might have to try this out
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check out SjoW's stream, its pretty much his TvP style every game.
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@Raiznhell, tons of respect for putting practiced ideas and real examples out there. Balance whining is fun, but this is better. It's got me working on heavier mech play.
Rediscovering the hellion has been great. I'd forgotten how crazy it can make your opponent to have those things running around.
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On January 02 2011 11:34 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote:On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers. It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors
B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers
C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings
D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to
E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
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On January 03 2011 04:14 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 11:34 SheaR619 wrote:On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote:On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers. It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus. You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss. When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is: A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game. If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army.
Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker.
I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself.
Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
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On January 03 2011 05:21 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 04:14 QQmonster wrote:On January 02 2011 11:34 SheaR619 wrote:On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote:On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers. It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus. You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss. When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is: A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game. If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or. No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army. Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker. I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself. Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley.
You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution.
The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead.
What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage.
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"It has been studied left and right by top players" lol@ nice assumption
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The problem with vikings is that they are a specialist unit where the goliath was the ultimate generalist. The viking is more expensive than the goliath was, deals less damage on the ground despite not being able to switch easily between ground and air attacks, and is squishier considering damage inflation as well as its lack of armor (although it counts as Armored). And most importantly it is made from a different structure than tanks- you need starports for vikings. The thor just does pitiful damage against air (vs light, 48 damage per 3 seconds = 16 dps. Less than half that against armor). This leaves the marine as the main anti-air unit in the terran army, and the terran's reliance on the marine means you will have lots of barracks, which means you must build out of those barracks constantly, and before you know it you're going marines-with-some-tanks rather than mech.
I've tried this a couple times, and I must say my suspicions have been confirmed. Heavy factory play is no longer viable as it was in brood war as the factory is no longer a well rounded production structure, and getting vehicle upgrades no longer improves an entire stable composition the way infantry upgrades do. Simply put, mech builds take time. This means your opponent has time to react, and as a result such a build is only worth doing if it is stable against almost any reaction. Which, unfortunately, 5 factory is not. They will simply get air and you lose. Or they will get immortals and you lose. Or they will exploit your immobility with drops as they could even if you had the ability to respond to any of their compositions. Mech's strength was its ability to fight a variety of compositions head on and win, so it didn't matter that it took time. That strength is now absent, and hardcore mech will be dead until it gets it back.
It seems the dev team really wanted to discourage classic brood war style mech given the new terran setup, and also the counters both sides now have to mech, such as immortals, void rays, brood lords, and the fact that mutas are an effective counter to the factory in general. Give terran the goliath in heart of the swarm and then we'll talk about 5 factory mech builds again.
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On January 03 2011 06:46 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 05:21 SheaR619 wrote:On January 03 2011 04:14 QQmonster wrote:On January 02 2011 11:34 SheaR619 wrote:On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote:On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers. It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus. You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss. When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is: A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game. If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or. No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army. Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker. I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself. Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond. Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley. You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution. The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead. What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage.
Ok, lets assume you are correct. If this strategy IS viable, why has it not shown itself in tournament. Wouldnt you think more people would use this strategy by now if it is viable? Avilo posted his ghost mech build since early/late beta and if it really is viable wouldnt many different variation would of come up on team liquid? Why have we yet to see it in GSL? MLG? This is alone enough to prove that it does not work.
I am not making assumption that top tier player have tried this and studied it. They truly have studied it. A well known player would be PainUser. I watched his stream when he used to mech against protoss. I watch for hours as he played it out and the many variation. He gave it a try because back then his TvP was his weakest. Then he suddenly stopped. I dont know why he stop but i figured that the reason he stop is because it wasnt viable. Avilo, the first one to try it was committed to try and make it work and then gave up as well. Trump, also tried it a few time and gave up as well. Why do they not try it at tournament? Simple answer is that the strategy is too risky and unreliable that they refuse to risk it at any tournament. Only one player name GoOdy use this build and he the one person that plays mech still. Not many people know of him because he has not have much success in large tournament.
Perhaps I am being too hard on this strategy and just being bias since it does not work for me but until it is shown to be viable and is proven that it can win tournament or is seen in the Top 200, then it is not viable.
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On January 03 2011 12:24 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 06:46 QQmonster wrote:On January 03 2011 05:21 SheaR619 wrote:On January 03 2011 04:14 QQmonster wrote:On January 02 2011 11:34 SheaR619 wrote:On January 02 2011 04:28 QQmonster wrote:On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers. It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count. There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him. It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science. Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans. Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy. Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways. The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it. Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus. You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss. When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is: A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game. If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or. No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army. Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker. I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself. Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond. Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley. You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution. The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead. What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage. Ok, lets assume you are correct. If this strategy IS viable, why has it not shown itself in tournament. Wouldnt you think more people would use this strategy by now if it is viable? Avilo posted his ghost mech build since early/late beta and if it really is viable wouldnt many different variation would of come up on team liquid? Why have we yet to see it in GSL? MLG? This is alone enough to prove that it does not work. I am not making assumption that top tier player have tried this and studied it. They truly have studied it. A well known player would be PainUser. I watched his stream when he used to mech against protoss. I watch for hours as he played it out and the many variation. He gave it a try because back then his TvP was his weakest. Then he suddenly stopped. I dont know why he stop but i figured that the reason he stop is because it wasnt viable. Avilo, the first one to try it was committed to try and make it work and then gave up as well. Trump, also tried it a few time and gave up as well. Why do they not try it at tournament? Simple answer is that the strategy is too risky and unreliable that they refuse to risk it at any tournament. Only one player name GoOdy use this build and he the one person that plays mech still. Not many people know of him because he has not have much success in large tournament. Perhaps I am being too hard on this strategy and just being bias since it does not work for me but until it is shown to be viable and is proven that it can win tournament or is seen in the Top 200, then it is not viable.
You have no authority to make such claims. Just because a build/strategy hasn't been used in the GSL yet =/= that it's not viable.
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I was using GSL as a large tournament as an example. We can even use tournament that happens weekly as an example too. Such as KOTH, GosuCup, and ICCUP tournaments. For a strategy to be viable, it must be proven that it can stand the highest level of play because that is where the strategy can be tested to see the flaws in it. This strategy couldnt even survive the test of High Level diamond players. There is very little chance that it can suddenly become viable in large tournament. I can use this build at bronze level and low diamond and they would be mind boggled by the unit composition and I could win but that doesnt make it viable because of the skill of the player.
I never said this strategy was impossible and that it will never happen in our life time. As of now, mech is not viable vs protoss because no one has been able to prove it yet. Avilo (top 200) was probably the first one to almost prove that it can work with his post on the build order with specific timing and variation but then tank nerf came and thing fell apart rather quickly. Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable.
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On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote:
[...] Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable as of now, 3.1.2011.
fixed.
all u said just proves that the build is not viable as of now. until today, no one has found a way to consistently have success with a real mech based tvp play on the highest level. but u have in no way proven that there dont exist ways to make it viable... which still have to be discovered....
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On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote:
I was using GSL as a large tournament as an example. We can even use tournament that happens weekly as an example too. Such as KOTH, GosuCup, and ICCUP tournaments. For a strategy to be viable, it must be proven that it can stand the highest level of play because that is where the strategy can be tested to see the flaws in it. This strategy couldnt even survive the test of High Level diamond players. There is very little chance that it can suddenly become viable in large tournament. I never said this strategy was impossible and that it will never happen in our life time. As of now, mech is not viable vs protoss because no one has been able to prove it yet. Avilo (top 200) was probably the first one to almost prove that it can work with his post on the build order with specific timing and variation but then tank nerf came and thing fell apart rather quickly. Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable.
What killed mech vs P was Protosses learning how to counter it, not the tank nerf (although it did hurt). It was never viable against a Protoss that knew how to deal with it, in the current or past state of the game.
The problem is really that Thors and Vikings are terrible replacements for Goliaths. Add that to the fact that air units in SC2 are much more meaty (do more damage, but are less agile) and you have a terrible time dealing with air.
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On January 03 2011 13:50 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote:
[...] Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable as of now, 3.1.2011. fixed. all u said just proves that the build is not viable as of now. until today, no one has found a way to consistently have success with a real mech based tvp play on the highest level. but u have in no way proven that there dont exist ways to make it viable... which still have to be discovered....
Hehe yes, all I really did just prove that it is not viable as of now. The world was once considered to be cube until someone sail around the world and then prove that it was sphere shape 
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Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
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On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote:
Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
Yes GoOdy really surprise me with his mech play. In fact he was the most impressive person as far as mech goes and even winning a few craftcup. When he started winning those I started to believe as well that mech might now be viable but then he totally got stomped at DreamHack by a protoss and then i begin to have doubts again. Craftcup are kind iffy because the players there really depends on who signs up. He is without a doubt really good because he was able to defeat KawaiiRice as well in ladder and hes probably around that level. So it could of been that he was a really good player that got paired up with lesser opponent. He does give hope, but I am still not sure if it is viable since it has not shown great performances in larger tournament.
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On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote:
Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
His hellion harrass timing is the same timing i used in the ghost mech guide ages ago. Sure, if you can somehow kill 40 probes...you're going to win no matter what. Doesn't mean mech is viable though.
The last tournament matches I saw, he won the first game with hellion harrass, and then protoss just abused mech the second two games for freewins.
Doing that was great when tanks being accumulated actually meant something TvP. Now zealot/immortal/collosus rips through them because of the patch where zealots take an extra shot, and tanks do less damage.
And at this point most good Protoss can stop hellion harrass, or if they take any damage, it's not much to matter.
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On January 03 2011 15:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote:
Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find. And at this point most good Protoss can stop hellion harrass, or if they take any damage, it's not much to matter.
Well it all depends on what point of the game and if the toss has scouted it. I mean look at DreamHack with Nony.
Nony is one good friggin Toss player and he got totally screwed by hellions.
Plus it's easy to justify suiciding hellions because all you have to do is get 2 probes per hellion to make it worth while and that's just so easy to do with the way their attack works after getting pre-igniter.
I dunno. I just feel that the most potent forms of harassment is banshees and hellions as dropping with MMM can cost you so much more for potentially way less damage.
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EPT
