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I watched the replays and they aren't good examples imo. The first game the cannon rush fails and you expo, anything would have won at that point. The 2nd game your opponent does one of the sloppiest, poorly executed, inefficient 4 gates I've ever seen, if executed better I would break that build, no doubt in my mind. A second rax and 2nd full bunker is necessary to stop a real 4 gate (since you have no marauders).
The 3rd game your opponent plays much better than the first 2 but he still has poor decision making. He keeps trying to break you turtle which is the opposite of how you beat mech. He researches charge and then gets a bunch of stalkers with no blink, and he could have warped dt's into your natural and any old time with the pylon he had, but never did.
I play P and T and also did in BW. I can honestly say I don't believe mech play is viable in PvT. If I see a terran mech I will just expand like crazy, get about 20 gates (seriously) charge and double forge upgrades, maybe some voids too. Then just wait for your push and prevent you from taking expose. Once you push out, I just wait for good positioning and try to get a surround or really good concave on your force while it is moving. Even if I only kill half of it I just remake my army instantly and if i have to I can crono 10 warpates, (because I'll probably have 4 or 5 bases) and hit again and again till I breaks the push. Also, if I see mech I usually go double robo for double immortals. If I get 4 or more bases I get quad robo. Then every time you move out I will warp in and counter attack, everytime your tanks unseige 20 chargelots will hit you. This may seem ridiculous but it crushes mech play. I think your opponents were just unfamiliar with how to play against it. I also think it would be much stronger for you to have more marines (a second rax with tech lab) and get combat shield and stim. I did like the starport with reactor, you need lots of vikings fast, if they go colossus or air, but I think a few dropships full of hellions (and some good micro) would be very effective and I didn't see you utilize the hellions for any successful harass.
Your opponents all played bad imo. Most had poor decision making, and attacked at the worse possible times into turtled positions with no flanking (all their units in a ball) All of your opponents had crap macro. Unused crono, forgetting workers. They were almost always behind on expos, and workers. When they did take more than 3 bases they still only had 6 gates. One game on delta the toss breaks your push and has 2500 in the bank, and you rebuild your army before him because he is on 3 base with 5 gates....... and he could have taken the gold next to his natural at any time but didn't. Most of the opponents seemed to have the right idea for composition, but no idea how to execute and terrible macro. If you face a protoss who identifies your meching, gets the right composition, has good macro and actually understands when to expand, this will loose 90%+
The people you played had bad decision making, bad macro, and only know how to 1a with their army. I would be glad to play against you in a bo7, I will use a bunch of different builds, and I think you will be convinced by the end that this is not viable. You beat your opponents because of decision making, macro,and positioning. Mech had nothing to do with it imo other than the fact that your opponents were inexperienced against it. Any decent toss from BW will probably crush this.
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Hi,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but i have to completely agree with Reborn. The 1st 2 really sucks balls, i can nitpick on how bad jade is with his 4gate push and supposed counters, macros, etc 30 apm (okay i don't believe u need high apm to function, but u need atleast 50 to be competent---noh? but let's leave that.
The biggest issue i think is that the toss u play against dont push u when u try to push, has no sense of map control, and does not pre-emptivly pylon everywhere to wait for u to push.
I think bliz matching you against these guys isn't a mistake, granted ur only high 1k, and they are 2.4k or something, its based on hidden mmr and etc, so if they are bad, they will be matched with u. C'mon, with the bonus points, you pretty much have a 2100 rating for free at a 50 percent w/l ratio, as well as u can spam games--well ALOT of games to get to 3k (with 51 percent w/l)....
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On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
Hellions(especially with Pre-Igniter) can be very effective as a harass unit before the push. I can't prevent your 3rd, but I can harass your bases with Hellion attacks. Hellions are good for map control as well, not as good as Vultures, but I would rate that Hellions > MM when the concern is Map control/Pinning/Harassing.
I read on somewhere that Hellions are cost-effective against Stalkers. That would be awesome but I have a hard time believing that. Could anyone prove that?
Blink play is very good against a mech Terran, but I don't see how can you auto-gg a good Terran player(which I'm not). The Terran can Siege some Tanks near his base to prevent Blink harass at least until some point. Tank Spread is to deal with Chargelots, as well as Blink Stalker attacks.
But overall fighting against Blink Stalkers requires a bit more effort from the Terran than the Protoss.
To be completely honest, I can see mech as a viable build.
When I play bio, I'm most concerned about the obvious area damage effects(Colossus, HT), Zealots and Force Fields. I can nullify most of those things with mech(Hellions>Zealots, Mech isn't THAT weak against Storms/Colossi and Force Fields barely touch a standing mech force). Of course mech provides it's own problems, but I don't find them as fearsome as Zealot/Sentry/HT/Colossus is for bio.
I don't say that bio isn't viable, but I fear Bio weaknesses more than mech weaknesses.
As for Carriers: Vikings isn't the counter for Carriers, I agree with that. Doing decent against Carriers is enough as I don't require supreme air control that beats everything ever from my Vikings. Carriers don't kill stuff THAT fast(Compare to a couple Colossi killing infantry). They are an immediate threat, but I can let my mech stand there for a moment while my Vikes engage the Carriers.
Phoenix/Carrier may require additional Raxes for Marines. Even Carriers alone may require that.
I'm trying to make mech work as well although I'm only somewhere near 2k level(Don't consider my posts as facts, it will be bad for your health). I can't test this build as much as couple others here because I don't ladder(I can explain why, but I don't bother) and I don't have much people to play with, but:
I use this opener on most maps:
1rax FE(With one gas or gasless, both are fine), get gasses up, Tech Lab on rax(Pump Marines first, testing will help you how many) and get Stim to help hold against early pushes. Get 2 Factories: one with Tech Lab, one with Reactor and research Siege before Pre-Igniter and go whatever you want after that.
I think I can hold early attacks with this opener(with Bunkers of course), even though it's pretty weak against them. Blink rush is very effective against this build especially on Metalopolis and LT, but I think I can hold it(have never tested against a Blink rush, sorry).
I modify this build if my opponent is on close positions on Metalopolis/LT, where I will go 2rax aggression into FE(the same 2rax as against Zerg. I personally like that). SoW is also a map where I need to be cautious. On Shakuras Plateau/Blistering Sands/Jungle Basin in some degree as well because of a possible backdoor attack and because mech is pretty immobile.
I will say this again: Don't take this as an absolute fact. I haven't tested mech in TvP for hundreds of games like some other people for reasons above(The reasons are bad, but deal with it). Also I'm only somewhere at the 2k level so I'm not a good player.
A wall of text, deal with it. Probably full of nothing.
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this is how you should play a mech build ,is still in its infancy but i think is already good(i'm valk by the way) and i know i'm platinum player(i have just started today 1v1 ladder because i love more 2v2) but, i was a B player on bw, so i'm not a total noob, just to let you know :D
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3820/Valk_vs_TOE
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Real quick question. On the early 3-4 gate push. What if he force field sentries the Bunker and makes it unrepairable?
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you have tanks to deal with it, with the first attack you should have 3-4 tanks, they are enought
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On January 01 2011 23:52 Garmer wrote:
you have tanks to deal with it, with the first attack you should have 3-4 tanks, they are enought
I thought Protoss 4 Gate All in pushes came way before you can pull out 3-4 tanks...
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if you are good first tank come at 5:30, 4 tank at 7:45, max 8:00
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I loved the replays. They clearly demonstrate mech is not as dead as I have thought for some time now.
A couple thoughts however. Firstly in most of the games it appears you gained an advantage through either one lucky hellion harass, or by simply having superior macro to your opponent, or both. I get the impression that there are a sizable number of replays you did not care to submit, probably because this build lost to enemies who were your equals (or perhaps betters) in macro. Tanks are simply not as strong as they once were, as they cost 50% more supply and deal less damage compared to brood war. The improved AI is nice, but doesn't actually help against targets like zealots which now take many tank shots to kill.
The general themes of your build seems to be, firstly, a fast expand with 2 bunkers, manned by a reactor barracks. I dig this quite a bit, as in your replays it repelled various sorts of early pokes such as early stalkers trying to punish that expo, with absolutely no success. Next, a gradual build up to 5 factories (1-2 reactor, all others labs), getting first siege then pre-igniter. I see nothing wrong with this, but a small question of whether you might get pre-igniter first, and trust your marines to hold a bit longer so you can open with a much faster, beefier blue flame hellion harass. It seems plausible. Finally you move into getting your third, as well as 3 starports for vikings, one of which has a tech lab for potentially required ravens. Also quite solid. It can hold against carriers (with some difficulty), which was quite impressive. I dig the build a lot.
However there are quite a few weaknesses I see which undermine my belief that this will see professional use unless mech is buffed. Firstly in every game you always entered the big battle with giant supply leads. At least 30 supply up on your opponent, sometimes as much as 60. In a professional game this would not happen under usual circumstances- both players should be able to macro about equally, and the protoss should not be that far behind. What the tanks seemed to do was buffer your advantage, making you lose less supply in each battle because they can bring all their firepower to bear at once very efficiently. This is very interesting to note, that a transition into mass tanks is great for holding onto an existing advantage, but does not appear to give you an advantage by itself.
The major flaw I see is that in fact it seems to do the opposite, since your opponent is left alone for so long they could take a fourth quite easily. None of your opponents in these games availed themselves of this opportunity. Sometimes they were given so much time before you maxed out on tanks, hellions, and vikings, that they could have taken a fifth without too much trouble, but instead chose to make colossi or tech to high templar. Presumably because they thought they were dealing with a typical terran.
This tank based mech play seems to very effectively counter the colossi/HT plays that we are seeing protoss frequently employ because of bio's predominance. It's not that tanks are good against colossi, only that in the numbers players are getting them the tanks can pop them instantly without fear of retaliation. Similarly, the protoss is only getting a couple immortals, and there is just so much tank fire that they get popped immediately. This mech build is an excellent counter-reaction to the protoss' response to heavy bio play. The problem is that none of your replays show a protoss employing the obvious counters to it, such as getting very large numbers of immortals, or building large void ray or carrier fleets. You are fighting an enemy that is poorly equipped to fight against tanks. This replay pack is similar to a protoss player teching directly to high templar against a bio terran, and finding, unsurprisingly, that it is highly effective.
At high levels of play, there will be no ladder fixation on blindly getting lots of gateway with a couple immortals and a couple colossi. If they see you going this sort of mass tank, there will be a countermove, and it will DEMOLISH this build. A tank costs 3 supply and an immortal costs 4. I very much doubt this build could handle a player with 20 immortals, although this many tanks can indeed handle two or so. Similarly, a player going hardcore void ray would probably crush this build, and the protoss has a huge amount of time to scout you, expand freely, and to build whatever they please, so none of these options are entirely unreasonable.
I love the build, but it has pretty clear shortcomings given the nature of mech in starcraft 2, and these shortcomings are not going away unless the game is changed. Still, I intend to try this build for myself a few times to get a better feel for it.
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note also that in all the replays he have a very bad macro, floating around 3k...with betetr macro this build is very strong trust me.
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I'm pretty sure 20 immortals will actually lose to 20 tanks because the splash damage rips through the shields almost instantly, unless they are Foxer microed or something.
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On January 02 2011 03:42 giuocob wrote:
I'm pretty sure 20 immortals will actually lose to 20 tanks because the splash damage rips through the shields almost instantly, unless they are Foxer microed or something.
Yeah but whens the last time you saw a Toss player stack Immortals only...
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Never, just responding to ledarsi.
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I'm reasonably sure that a siege tank's splash does not reach beyond one immortal's footprint. A siege tank hitting an immortal will hit nothing else. Even if it's not the case, you can pretty much have one immortal for each tank, and that ratio will always favor the immortals. True, it's a composition you never see because it is unbelievably bad against mass marine or mass marauder. But against mass tank?
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On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote:
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this? The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
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I think this is a very interesting strategy. Yeah the opponents weren't fantastic and neither was the T (no offense) but I think that just because the opponents weren't the highest caliber it doesn't mean that this isn't a viable strategy. I think this is a good departure from the status quo on TvP and I'm excited to try it out.
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I use Mech TvP also its just takes time refining the build. I loved the replays GOOD JOB! <3
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I normally 3 rax then expand against Protoss. After watching some streams, I added in the occasional marine/tank build. It's been an effective alternative, especially if the Protoss builds anything on their ramp.
At my level (2250 + Diamond) Terrans have the ability to provide heavy early pressure, which the Protoss normally counters with sentry and FF. But the tanks can siege up and a scan can target the sentries even over FF. Tanks are cost effective against Stalkers and do more DPS than Marauders against Zealots. Of course, the marines are there to kill the zealots, but hey...
What I found to be REALLY cool is that tanks are useful against Colossus and HT. Killing HT before they get in range really hampers them.
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On January 02 2011 04:48 out4blood wrote:
I normally 3 rax then expand against Protoss. After watching some streams, I added in the occasional marine/tank build. It's been an effective alternative, especially if the Protoss builds anything on their ramp.
At my level (2250 + Diamond) Terrans have the ability to provide heavy early pressure, which the Protoss normally counters with sentry and FF. But the tanks can siege up and a scan can target the sentries even over FF. Tanks are cost effective against Stalkers and do more DPS than Marauders against Zealots. Of course, the marines are there to kill the zealots, but hey...
What I found to be REALLY cool is that tanks are useful against Colossus and HT. Killing HT before they get in range really hampers them.
what you'll find if you continue to mech is that collosi with range are actually the strongest unit protoss has to fight them. if they attack your tank line head on, the tanks only have a range advantage of 4. What ends up happening is all of your tanks don't fire at once, while all the collosi do, so they can pick off 2-3 tanks then go back and recuperate shields. Once they have about 3 - 4 collosi this is really effective and demands the terran to get vikings in rebuttal. I treat collosi as air units now when I mech, it's the most effective way of dealing with them especially since if you get vikings to fight them you're also safe vs any air transitions as well.
Another option is 150 strike cannon thors too, it can be a little micro game of getting the thors in range of the collosi, but they are also useful against immortals.
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EPT
