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On December 24 2010 04:24 Antisocialmunky wrote:
The Faster Double Rax is 12/13 by cutting 1 SCV and making your Orbital slightly slower.
EDIT: And I'm not talking about your 2nd gas, I'm talking about the first gas. I'm also not sure why you're talking about 'cheese proof'. If I wanted to be cheese proof on Steppes vs zerg, I'd just wall the bottom of my ramp which would probably cost some minerals in travel time. I am curious if it is possible to get more income with a faster mule. I was experimenting with that doing a 10 Rax OC before the Terran Nerf.
For the first sentence, here is some data on how much delaying workers costs you. To read this chart, for every X seconds you delay Worker Y, that's how much you lose before Saturation Time. I planned to do a full write-up on Terran/Protoss worker delay tomorrow, but here's a chart for you to look at now. It may help with your idea:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/j6GOG.jpg)
(The Highlighted box is the delay cost for a 15OC (which was factored in, just thought people might be interested. Also, this only shows SCV income loss from worker delay, MULES are not considered here.)
As for the second part, I showed in the original post that getting an earlier OC than 14 or later than 15 is not viable for maximizing income. And Only 13 and possibly 16-18 can really even be argued for (with very build-specific thinking in mind).
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On December 24 2010 04:18 mlbrandow wrote:Respectfully, all of those answers are obvious.
The loss of 45 minerals over 7.5 minutes is absolutely trivial and well within the margin of error of any player's ability.
I could just as easily say that shaving 7 seconds on your first marine is trivial. 
A scouting SCV doesn't affect timing, because it's assumed that you're going to scout the same as both builds.
It affects minerals mined, and delays anything that needs to wait on getting the minerals. You already noted that you just barely have the minerals to go 11/14 rax 14 OC. In the calculator, adding in an 11 Scout means you delay the OC by 5 seconds.
For the record, for certain 2 rax builds, it would be useful to know the difference between 15 and 16 OC, because the 15 OC will be delayed.
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On December 24 2010 03:44 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 03:38 Saechiis wrote:
3:00 is when the earliest of cheeses arrive (in-base proxy zealot/ 6-pool), there's no reason to sacrifice economy to get a marine earlier than that. Only a drone rush arrives earlier and it's impossible to scout it or have a marine out in time anyways. on steppes a 6-pool will hit at 2:45. If you lose even one worker, it sets you back more minerals (~240 vs. 170) than opting for the 13 OC. Also to add, the 2:53 and 3:00 assumes you build the SD/Rax at your base. If you wall, it's going to be ~7-8 seconds later. Meaning your First marine in the standard 15OC really is going to arrive around 3:07. Even the best players get cheesed, and trading 45 minerals over 7.5 minutes (negative at first) seems like a good deal to greatly reduce those odds. And for insecure players, or players of lower skill or in team games, the 13 OC is going to completely shut down any cannon, zealot, or 6/8 pool shenanigans for the low trade of 170 minerals spread out over 8 minutes. This allows you to be more aggressive (earlier 3-4 marines) or more defensive (earlier bunker)--again, with minimal hit to your economy.
Well, in that case a marine at 2:53 would be too late too. Plus you always scout after depot on Steppes since early pool is so prevalent on that map. You're basically sacrificing economy to make up for not scouting and to feel safe.
Bottom line is that 15OC is more economical and just as safe as 13/14OC when you scout for an inbase proxy TvP and for a 6/7 pool TvZ.
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On December 24 2010 04:18 mlbrandow wrote:You may not lose many games because of your first marine being delayed by 7 seconds, but when you start pulling workers to repair wall, fight lings/zealot/cheese/etc, that marine is more than going to make up that already negligible long-term disadvantage.
One thing you may have overlooked -- if you can reliably beat cheese, you don't gain anything by choosing a build that lets you beat cheese slightly more efficiently.
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On December 24 2010 04:43 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 03:44 mlbrandow wrote:On December 24 2010 03:38 Saechiis wrote:
3:00 is when the earliest of cheeses arrive (in-base proxy zealot/ 6-pool), there's no reason to sacrifice economy to get a marine earlier than that. Only a drone rush arrives earlier and it's impossible to scout it or have a marine out in time anyways. on steppes a 6-pool will hit at 2:45. If you lose even one worker, it sets you back more minerals (~240 vs. 170) than opting for the 13 OC. Also to add, the 2:53 and 3:00 assumes you build the SD/Rax at your base. If you wall, it's going to be ~7-8 seconds later. Meaning your First marine in the standard 15OC really is going to arrive around 3:07. Even the best players get cheesed, and trading 45 minerals over 7.5 minutes (negative at first) seems like a good deal to greatly reduce those odds. And for insecure players, or players of lower skill or in team games, the 13 OC is going to completely shut down any cannon, zealot, or 6/8 pool shenanigans for the low trade of 170 minerals spread out over 8 minutes. This allows you to be more aggressive (earlier 3-4 marines) or more defensive (earlier bunker)--again, with minimal hit to your economy. Well, in that case a marine at 2:53 would be too late too. Plus you always scout after depot on Steppes since early pool is so prevalent on that map. You're basically sacrificing economy to make up for not scouting and to feel safe.
It's certainly true that you'd be making the decision to 11-rax before seeing whether the opponent has 6-pooled or not. The difference is that if he didn't, you can take your gas very slightly sooner, and if he did, your marine is out way sooner.
I think "late" and "not in time to make the fight" are worth discerning here, since that extra 7 seconds could be the difference in losing an scv if you don't wall (not that you wouldn't) of having the trouble of taking SCVs off the line to repair (a double economic whammy) while your marine plods along the production line.
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You know, here's a question you should look at. What are the economic effects of 7/8/9 depot immediately followed by Rax?
EDIT: I mean while trying to not cut SCVs beyond the first few needed to get the faster depot. You have 6/6 and 7/7. I'm thinking more like 6/8, 7/9, or 8/10.
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On December 24 2010 06:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You know, here's a question you should look at. What are the economic effects of 7/8/9 depot immediately followed by Rax?
i assume if you skip more scvs you'll hurt your eco more than shown here...
7OC - ~1453 Minerals Lost (17.2% of economy) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:23
7 Depot
7 Rax
10 OC - ~622 Minerals Lost (8.3%) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:29, 2 @2:54
9 Depot
10 Rax
13 OC - ~170 Minerals Lost (2.3%*) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:45
What I'm curious about is the early benefit/late cost of going 2 rax OC and either mule or supply drop
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On December 24 2010 06:19 zDUST wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You know, here's a question you should look at. What are the economic effects of 7/8/9 depot immediately followed by Rax? i assume if you skip more scvs you'll hurt your eco more than shown here... Show nested quote +7OC - ~1453 Minerals Lost (17.2% of economy) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:23
7 Depot
7 Rax
10 OC - ~622 Minerals Lost (8.3%) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:29, 2 @2:54
9 Depot
10 Rax
13 OC - ~170 Minerals Lost (2.3%*) by Saturation Time, Marine Possible @2:45 What I'm curious about is the early benefit/late cost of going 2 rax OC and either mule or supply drop
I'm working on a new tool that will show this, and I should have it out in the next day, functional for protoss and terran.
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On December 24 2010 04:18 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 04:04 Hurkyl wrote:On December 24 2010 03:29 mlbrandow wrote:I just showed that the standard 15OC opening almost every terran uses should be changed to 14OC, and that a completely cheese-proof 13OC build is economically viable. While you did state some facts, you never made an argument that 14 OC was superior. It looked more like a documentation of how many extra minerals you are paying to get your first Marine a few seconds earlier. Also, I don't have that much confidence in the applicability of your results for several reasons: - I don't think the build order calculator's precision is good enough to deal with such small differences (that's where you got the numbers, right?)
- You neglect to consider how a scouting SCV affects the timing
- You neglect to consider how a standard build like 2 rax OC or rax-refinery-OC affects the timing
EDIT: I'm not saying that this data is worthless -- just that it's not precise enough to make decisions over small differences, and not complete enough to make iron-clad assertions. Respectfully, all of those answers are obvious. The loss of 45 minerals over 7.5 minutes is absolutely trivial and well within the margin of error of any player's ability. A scouting SCV doesn't affect timing, because it's assumed that you're going to scout the same as both builds. You scout with your Depot worker, or you scout with your Rax worker, or you scout at 9. Each impacts both builds in exactly the same way, because they are so close economically. In fact, they are identical up until you decide to delay your 12th worker by 8 seconds. Double Rax OC is a fair point, but if you try it you'll note that 14OC and 14Rax can go down simultaneously (i.e.- you'll have 300 minerals when your rax/OC finish). If you decide to be aggressive, you can cut SCV time a hair more, and if you decide to be defensive, you don't have to lay down the 2nd rax. Since you'll have scouted by now, the 14OC gives you the flexibility to do either without having to decide omnisciently whether to sack economy for army. (Again, it's only 7 seconds, but that's so huge when you're at such a critical period in the game--your first army unit.) Rax-Refinery-OC is absolutely fine with 14OC, and in fact you can tech even faster, as you don't *have* to make that first marine (as with 15OC) but you still have that extra income for the initial ~15-25 seconds. The fact that they are so close together economically as to be only several minerals apart after so long should make this a no-brainer. Execute the opener that allows you the option of building a marine 7 seconds sooner. You may not lose many games because of your first marine being delayed by 7 seconds, but when you start pulling workers to repair wall, fight lings/zealot/cheese/etc, that marine is more than going to make up that already negligible long-term disadvantage.
The answer to the questions is not obvious, and I'll use an example to illustrate my point. The difference between 1 and 2 SCVs is huge, but the difference between 29 and 30 SCVs is not. Hence, the SCVs that were not scouting/mining minerals are going to impact the 14OC more than the 15OC. Thus, you needed to investigate the impact of scouting and 13 gas on both openers.
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My mi gosh.
I have always been doing this because my macro is terrible and I always end up forgetting the 12SCV for a couple seconds and go "oh well, might as well get a rax first"
I always thought it as a fail but I am unconsciously, unknowingly, performing a better BO by accident?
Gotta test this out!
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EPT
