EPTI use that build too since a month and it work very well. Any safe build to contain this 4gates ?
[G] Standard PvP 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in - Page 2
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Hane
France210 Posts
I use that build too since a month and it work very well. Any safe build to contain this 4gates ? | ||
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escobari
Finland192 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 17 2010 13:43 Anihc wrote: Also note that K4G definitely beats this... in fact K4G is pretty much a hard counter to this. You can't really continue with this build if you scout K4G just like you can't continue with this build if you scout 2 gate zeals or something. lol it's quite the other way around. K4G sucks and loses hard to this because this only has warpgate up 10 secs later but also already has 3 units by that time. Ie. you'll be having 7 units vs 4 if you stopped the pylons being exactly on top of your pylon. Also it really depends on what version of 2 gate zeals you see, if it's in base 2 gate zeals you can actually keep doing this fine and I would say it's about the best answer there is if you micro your stalkers sufficiently. If the 2 gates are proxied you HAVE to answer with 2 gate zeals yourself obviously. Basically I agree with the rest though, if you are going to 4 gate this is about the best build there is. THe 3 gate builds where you build more units before warpgate are just slightly more efficient imo but you will be only having 3 gates with them, ie you need perfect macro to keep production with them. 3 gates with chronoboost is nearly exactly enough production if you macro perfect, 4 gates is slight overproduction making it much easier to continue attacking with it, especially as keeping perfect warpgate micro is harder. Overall i'd say this is the best way to 4 gate though as it's harder to scout then a 3 gate and can actually adapt later on. For example a 1 gate FE has nearly the same build order except it makes more probes and puts down the nexus instead of 3 gates. So while a defensive 3 gate robo can keep this off for example, such a build would lose to a 1 gate FE (as fast robo stinks vs FE). Also some bad players perform their builds poorly and simply forget to chrono alot and make a late 2nd gas so it may look like they do this build while in fact they are just doing a robo build. For pure rushing power (if you don't care about being scouted or whatever) a 3 gate is slightly better though(about 2 more units). | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
K4G is a hard counter to any protoss build that does not attack before the 4:30 mark with a sizeable force (it's true, if you send your first zealot to attack, the K4Gater has to pump out one of his own and delay the 4g by about 5-10 seconds, but that's still going to be enough to demolish this 4G build.) Against a competent K4Gater, you cannot stop the proxy pylon(s) with gateway units. The first proxy pylon can go up as early as 3:50, which is approximately the time when your *first* zealot pops, 25 seconds before a chronoboosted stalker appears. By that time, there will be 4 pylons warped/warping in your base. You could attempt to kill the scouting probe by bringing 4-5 probes off minerals to attack it as soon as you scout he's going K4G, which actually works because worker building AI is retarded. The probe will probably have 2 proxies pylons up before death, which your gateway units + probes can finish off. Unfortunately, this puts you economically behind, and merely delays the eventual push up your ramp with 8-12 zealots while you have 4 fewer gateway units of your own. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Fast expand  | ||
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kron0s
Philippines57 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 17 2010 13:23 Shlowpoke wrote: Hey TL. This is a build I adapted from something I saw NexGenius do in a game vs Tester. He messes up pretty badly though, so watch my replays for a better version. This build is designed for PvP, but it is still powerful in the other matchups. Anyone could probably get to Diamond with just this build. The breakdown: 9 Pylon (chrono probes when done) 12 Gateway (chrono probes, scout) 14 Assimilator 15 Pylon (put 3 in gas) 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Zealot 22 Warp Gate Research as soon as core finishes (chrono core, cut probes) 22 Stalker (chrono) 24 (chrono core) 24 @~350 minerals 3 Gateways (chrono core) 24 Stalker 26 Proxy Pylon (chrono core) Morph Gateways, build Pylon in your base Warp in 4 Stalkers Attack with everything (1 Zealot, 6 Stalkers) @~5:45 Reinforce with 4 Zealots Key Points: -Cut probes at 22 supply (will be at 24 when Stalker starts, which makes 20 probes total) -Move out with Zealot and Stalker to help protect proxy pylon probe Replays: NexGenius Original Replay (Fail) Me Practicing Build (Clean Execution) Me executing vs a practice partner going Robo Summary: This 4 Gate gets a Zealot and 2 Stalkers out for early safety and then gets a HUGE surge of units. It has 1 Zealot and 6 Stalkers at their base at around 5:45, with 4 more Zealots on the way. 6 Stalkers is a very key number because it 3-shots Zealots and 2-shots Stalkers. Strengths: - Demolishes fast Robo - Demolishes fast Blink - Demolishes passive FE - Hits before most DT Rushes - Has units to deal with Korean 4 Gate All-in Pylons Weaknesses: - 2 Gate Zealot Pressure - Any form of Chrono Boosted 1-2 Gate Pressure Now you all have something to check against when you ask yourselves "Does my build die to 4 Gate?" :D Thanks for covering the 4 warp-gate attack with precision: the early units, timings, strengths. Great writeup. Side note: What I saw and I'm guessing others her saw was titling this as the "NeXGenius " 4warpgate allin and then read it and see the "standard" 4warpgate attack. So it's like a letdown =). It's kind of like saying "Here's the build I adapted from nIckel" and then write up a 2gate zealot attack with gateways on 12 and 14. You're left going, "Wait, wait? You adapted and came up with the popular ladder build I see all day on korean streams?" We like a pretty nice detailed writeup, but don't be surprised at the reaction given the introduction. Side, Side Note: Learning micro with the 4warpgate against proper 3warpgate/robo defense or will do the user more good in the long run than just finding a build to ride to diamond. It really helps with 3warpgate expand builds against Zerg. | ||
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Roban
Netherlands73 Posts
Or is there some way to prevent this? I normally keep trying but that hasn't really worked out so well. | ||
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Rage178
United States127 Posts
Any PvP strategy where you have to walk into your opponents base is only going to work if your opponent did not get sentries. If your opponent did get sentries, he can block you out until he gets a 1base colossus, and then you are screwed. I would stay away from All-in strategies, and just use a K4G pressure push to get ahead instead of an "All-in" strategy. | ||
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Rage178
United States127 Posts
On December 17 2010 22:05 Roban wrote: What do you do when the opponent uses a forcefield so split your army in half on the ramp? Or is there some way to prevent this? I normally keep trying but that hasn't really worked out so well. If you use this strategy, this will always happen, and the only way to stop it is to build a pylon on the side of their ramp so you can warp in units in their base...or get a Warp Prism. All-in strats like this get owned by sentries force field, just like the 7 RR and the marine all in. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
On December 17 2010 17:09 Hammertime wrote: 24 @~350 minerals 3 Gateways (chrono core) ^^ small typo I believe sir, shouldn't that be 450 mins? Actually I did mean 350, because that's the mental trigger I use when queuing my gateways up, but I will change it to 450 for the sake of clarity. Thanks. ^^ On December 17 2010 19:57 Phael wrote: I'm not sure what type of K4G you're playing against, but an optimized K4G has 4 zealots warping in at 5:05, a full 40 seconds before this build's stated 5:45. ... <etc.> You may have a point here. Let's test it. If you are correct, I will edit my OP. Shlowpoke.494 On December 17 2010 22:15 Rage178 wrote: The thing about this build is that a competent protoss can just use sentries to keep your army out, and then 1 base colossus or just get immortals. This build is actually weaker than a Korean four gate, so why would you not just use a 1 gas K4G to get zealots and stalkers? ... Any PvP strategy where you have to walk into your opponents base is only going to work if your opponent did not get sentries. If your opponent did get sentries, he can block you out until he gets a 1base colossus, and then you are screwed. How many Sentries are you going to have at 5:45? How much does that cut into your army? Can you FF before the Zealot gets up the ramp, giving vision to all the Stalkers? You may be able to delay the 1st wave, but can you stop the 2nd, or the 3rd? In my experience, any 2nd-gas-after-core Robo build that relies on a Sentry for defense straight-up DIES to the Zealot wave if not to the 1st wave. If you would like to test it, my ID is Shlowpoke.494 Btw, FF isn't as reliable as people think. If you go 3-Gate Blink, you can Blink 1 Stalker past the FF for vision and then Blink the rest up. Or just run a Zealot up first. | ||
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Response
United States1936 Posts
On December 17 2010 22:15 Rage178 wrote: The thing about this build is that a competent protoss can just use sentries to keep your army out, and then 1 base colossus or just get immortals. This build is actually weaker than a Korean four gate, so why would you not just use a 1 gas K4G to get zealots and stalkers? Its definitely faster. Put a pylon on the side of their ramp and then warp units into their base past the force field. Any PvP strategy where you have to walk into your opponents base is only going to work if your opponent did not get sentries. If your opponent did get sentries, he can block you out until he gets a 1base colossus, and then you are screwed. I would stay away from All-in strategies, and just use a K4G pressure push to get ahead instead of an "All-in" strategy. Korean 4 gate is horrible, its much easier scouted, its MUCH more all-in than this build is, my favorite part about your post is how you say stay away from all ins but then advocate using Korean 4 gate "pressure" to get ahead, Korean 4gate cuts so many more probes than this build. With this build you can transition out of it very easily into midgame, you dont even have to attack if you see your opponent is prepared and play a standard midgame, with the Korean 4 gate you have no choice of transitioning out of it if you see your opponent is prepared. You have to do a ton of economic damage or kill your opponent to be able to win with the Korean 4 gate *edited for spelling and grammar* | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On December 17 2010 23:24 Response wrote: Korean 4 gate is horrible, its much easier scouted, its MUCH more all-in than this build is, my favorite part about your post is how you say stay away from all ins but then say advocate using Korean 4 gate "pressure" to get ahead, Korean 4gate cuts so many more probes than this build. With this build you can transition out of it very easily into midgame, you dont even have to attack if you see your opponent is prepared and play a standard midgame, with the Korean 4 gate you have no choice of transitioning out of it if you see your opponent is prepared. You have to do a ton of economic damage or kill your opponent to be able to win with the Korean 4 gate *edited for spelling* Response, you're the only decent player who has a clue what you're talking about in this thread, but I would have to disagree with you that K4G is "horrible." You're 100% correct on all the points you're making about K4G though. But just because you can stop it doesn't mean it won't work on 99.99% of other players, and thus I don't think it's fair to say that it's a horrible build. For everyone else - K4G beats this build because 1) K4G can afford to get 1 zealot without slowing down the first set of warp-ins, which will defend against the 1st zealot that this build might send to harass 2) K4G can always send out a 2nd probe to build more pylons in the opponent's main if a stalker is chronoed to kill the initial probe. It is impossible for a 12 gate to stop a competent K4G from setting up pylons in the opponent's main. 3) Someone said you get zealots out at 5:05 with a K4G - well yea that's with the optimized impossible build order. In reality you warp them in at 5:20, but that's still a ton of time before the warp-ins from this build kicks in. Then you have 5 zealots vs 1 zeal 2 stalker, and you're either going to lose probes or mining time. Which essentially means you lose, because you'll never be able to keep up with constant warp-ins if you lose probes or have your mining be stopped. EDIT: And to the OP, I don't really mean to bash your guide, it's definitely one of the strongest builds out there in PvP, period. So thank you for actually writing it up - most people probably already know it but it'll help for the newer players. And for those of you who are saying that 4 gate every game won't help you get better - that may be true in PvT and PvZ but unfortunately in PvP there is no hard counter to 4 gate, so the reality is that you won't become a better PvP player until you learn the many variations of 4 gate and how to counter them. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 18 2010 01:16 Anihc wrote: Response, you're the only decent player who has a clue what he's talking about in this thread, but I would have to disagree with you that K4G is "horrible." You're 100% correct on all the points you're making about K4G though. But just because you can stop it doesn't mean it won't work on 99.99% of other players, and thus I don't think it's fair to say that it's a horrible build. For everyone else - K4G beats this build because 1) You can afford to get 1 zealot without slowing down your first set of warp-ins, which will defend against his 1st zealot that he might send to harass you 2) You can always send out a 2nd probe to build more pylons in his main if he chronos out a stalker to kill the scouting probe. It is impossible for a 12 gate to stop a competent K4G from setting up pylons in your base. 3) Someone said you get zealots out at 5:05 with a K4G - well yea that's with the optimized impossible build order. In reality you warp them in at 5:20, but that's still a ton of time before the warp-ins from this build kicks in. Then you have 5 zealots vs 1 zeal 2 stalker, and you're either going to lose probes or mining time. Which essentially means you lose, because you'll never be able to keep up with constant warp-ins if you lose probes or have your mining be stopped. K4G doesn't beat this opening. You recognize that you might be up against K4G when you see a 10gate, and you know you're up against K4G when they pull probes off gas as their core is warping in. By this time, all you've done is a 12 gate, gas, and then core immediately following the gate. The ideal response is to immediately start a zealot at 100 minerals, which this build does anyway. In other words, this opening starts with the perfect counter to K4G and allows you to scout a K4G in plenty of time to respond and crush the attack. If you open with this build and lose to K4G, you've screwed something up. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
Make +2gate instead of 3, and you will have 3zeal+1stalker when the 1st wave come, then warp is up and you can add +3zeal to crush army+pylons. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On December 18 2010 04:59 kcdc wrote: K4G doesn't beat this opening. You recognize that you might be up against K4G when you see a 10gate, and you know you're up against K4G when they pull probes off gas as their core is warping in. By this time, all you've done is a 12 gate, gas, and then core immediately following the gate. The ideal response is to immediately start a zealot at 100 minerals, which this build does anyway. In other words, this opening starts with the perfect counter to K4G and allows you to scout a K4G in plenty of time to respond and crush the attack. If you open with this build and lose to K4G, you've screwed something up. Sorry, maybe my usage of pronouns was confusing, I'm not sure if you understood what I was trying to say because your reply doesn't make any sense. I've edited my post to try to clarify it a bit. Explain how 1 zeal 2 stalker beats 5 zeal without losing probes or mining time? EDIT: I'm not saying that you can't counter a K4G, because obviously you can adapt your build after a 12 gate to stop K4G. But you're going to have to deviate from the build order outlined in the OP in order to successfully defend against it. | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
I am a very macro oriented player otherwise, but until it is possible to macro in pvp i do this build. vs terran i do a 1 gate expand build. vs zerg i do different pressure into expand or 15 nexus depending on map. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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