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I am looking for diamond Terrans, who have plenty of experience going 2rax, to 2rax against me repeatedly. It will be good practice for both of us 
I will be trying differing builds and strategies to try and defend while maintaining a solid economy. You have the option of applying whatever pressure you think will be most effective. You have the option of feigning pressure and then playing macro. I want at least some of the games to be all-in, and some of the games to be macro-oriented.
All the games will be on the map Steppes of War. This map is chosen because it is clearly the most difficult to defend for Zerg. If something works on Steppes, then we know it will work anywhere. Of course some plays will be viable on other maps that aren't viable on Steppes, however, the goal here isn't to determine how to defend on each map. I am simply trying to analyze what defenses and responses are most effective against the maximum degree of pressure.
The replays will be posted and this thread can be a place for discussion regarding the results as well as different strategies and techniques for each player to improve their play.
If you are interested in either testing or observing the games, then either post here or PM me in-game. My ID is encRoach, 415.
Note: Please don't post here criticizing the players abilities or the map chosen, etc. We are just playing some practice games, not having a theorycraft debate.
REPLAYS:
+ Show Spoiler +lGy Series: lGy is an extremely skilled 2800+ Terran. I was determined to defend 14Hatch against his 2rax all-in, but I didn't succeed. Results: 14 Hatch 0-6 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174060.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174061.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174062.jpg) bail Series bail was not as adept as lGy at the 2rax rush... But he is excellent at following through with 1-base all ins. These games are fairly entertaining. Results: 11Overpool 1-1, 14Hatch 2-1 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174063.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174064.jpg)
Conclusions:
There are a few things I have learned in order to help defend 14 Hatch.
1) Maynard ALL your drones to the nat against 2rax play.
2) Be sure your lings and all your drones attack as a single ball. This is not necessarily to kill the opposing force, just to buy time for your spine to finish.
3) Position your lings at top of the ramp to prevent your opponent from simply running past your spine. However, there is still the slight problem of your opponent running into the ramp, preventing a surround and completely defending his marines. Maybe position them ON the ramp?
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Not a T player, but I hope someone takes you up on your offer. Post replays! 
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2k+ terran
how to defend 2 rax
14 hatch
delay your 3rd overlord
stall your 2nd queen
spinecrawler instantly as hatch finishes
pull all but 4 drones off the line and keep dancing back and forth with your drones/zlings until spinecrawler is done
once it's done you'll be safe for a good while, spines are amazing against marines
make sure to follow it up with a banelings nest, dont be greedy and try to go straight to mutas because that's a great way to lose if he follows it up with 4-6 rax marines scv all in (which most players do)
p.s. dont forget to keep a drone patrolling at the bottom of you ramp when you see scvs coming in case double bunker block
p.p.s. dont lose any overlords!!!
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On December 15 2010 06:52 Debolt wrote:
2k+ terran
how to defend 2 rax
14 hatch
delay your 3rd overlord
stall your 2nd queen
spinecrawler instantly as hatch finishes
pull all but 4 drones off the line and keep dancing back and forth with your drones/zlings until spinecrawler is done
once it's done you'll be safe for a good while, spines are amazing against marines
make sure to follow it up with a banelings nest, dont be greedy and try to go straight to mutas because that's a great way to lose if he follows it up with 4-6 rax marines scv all in (which most players do)
p.s. dont forget to keep a drone patrolling at the bottom of you ramp when you see scvs coming in case double bunker block
p.p.s. dont lose any overlords!!!
Okay, that's gonna be very helpful now ^_^. I am almost hardwired into doing 14 Hatch and trying to saturate it.
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I cant wait to see how this goes. I think though that the hardest map is delta quadrant because of the open nat and except cross positions rush distances are as long or shorter than steppes. but obv steppes is fine.
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On December 15 2010 06:52 Debolt wrote:
2k+ terran
how to defend 2 rax
14 hatch
delay your 3rd overlord
stall your 2nd queen
spinecrawler instantly as hatch finishes
pull all but 4 drones off the line and keep dancing back and forth with your drones/zlings until spinecrawler is done
once it's done you'll be safe for a good while, spines are amazing against marines
make sure to follow it up with a banelings nest, dont be greedy and try to go straight to mutas because that's a great way to lose if he follows it up with 4-6 rax marines scv all in (which most players do)
p.s. dont forget to keep a drone patrolling at the bottom of you ramp when you see scvs coming in case double bunker block
p.p.s. dont lose any overlords!!!
I believe this thread isn't about defending 2 rax by 14 hatch. It's about trying out different builds to defend 2rax. So really this post was pointless. So is this one 
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iamjeffrey.267
I do 2 rax open, but I don't always stick to marines, or I go heavy on marines depending on you. I like to expo and transition accordingly
2500T
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Still looking for players that are available...
I played 6 games against lGy, and I lost them all going 14 Hatch 14 Pool. There was one game that finished close. We both had 5 workers afterwords, but he had mules with a CC building, so I think it was an eventual loss.
I haven't quite gotten the micro down well enough to provide a replay worth showing, but if you guys want to see some of the losses then let me know
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I thought this was for 11 pool, 18 hatch shenanigans.
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On December 15 2010 09:43 Antisocialmunky wrote:I thought this was for 11 pool, 18 hatch shenanigans.
I will be testing that build too. I want to get a few best replays for each build.
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I'm gonna bump this one last time to try and find players...
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I can't be sure but I'd venture a guess that 14 hatch (follow what the person above said, but personally I only pull drones if they pull scvs in the first push) would fair better than 11 pool / 18 hatch vs a smart player. If I were the Terran (I play zerg) I'd know the timing and delay my push until right before the expansion is finished. Without creep or a spine crawler up a push at this time seems like it would be enough to handle. So if you play around with the 11/18 build make sure you can hold stuff like that.
Make sure to post your findings though! I'm curious about it.
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First few replays have been posted to the OP. Anymore players interested in testing, post ID and I will be available tomorrow.
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Far.257
I'm protoss but if we're just doing openings I can show 2 separate builds that can stop 2 rax play even on steppes, provided by opponent isn't foxer.
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Judging from the replays you posted, you are definitely a better zerg player than I am, and so I hope you take this advice well:
make a roach warren and stop trying to maintain this delusion that fast expanding is better than 1-basing in every possible situation.
I watched 3 replays and saw a lot of poor decision-making that I would never do, and I am by no means an expert player.
Slow banelings vs. stimmed marines and marauders, and forcing an expansion when you see 5-10 SCVs accompanying a rush is just really poor teching.
You force muta/bane/ling against a guy who 1-bases with predominantly marine production.
In one replay your opponent said "5/7RR crushes this" and he's absolutely right. You can 7RR at 4:45 with 15 drones and it would be a cost win every time.
Your unreasonable commitment to fast expanding, forcing ling/bling/muta and your refusal to make an extra queen for transfuse and creep spread are what doom you consistently in these games.
When I play terran, I usually stick to a lot of marine heavy aggression, and the reason it works is because many players simply fail to adapt. You tech because you feel like you should, but almost every lair/hive unit is hard countered by stimmed marines.
Again, just make a roach warren. It's completely okay to one-base. Those bunkers are by no means invincible. And ESPECIALLY if you have an expansion up, why do you need to force aggression ON what is a failed bunker push (because of the creep).
Conclusion: You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. You're forcing a certain tech tree and an expansion when you know exactly that your opponent is committing to 1-base play, forever giving him the army advantage. You lose consistently because of this, and instead of changing your operating condition (must maximize personal economy), you force yourself into what is really a no-win situation.
You should be aware that denying your opponent's economy is as good or better than maximizing your own economy. Start thinking by "how can I earn and maintain an economic advantage over my opponent?" The answer, believe it or not, does not always reside in fast expanding and making the smallest possible army.
P.S. - While I disagree with a lot of what you post, I appreciate the high value that such threads as these hold in this forum and community. If more people operated their threads in this way, the world would be a better place! Thanks again for all your time and effort in this and other discussion threads.
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On December 15 2010 07:09 Numy wrote:I believe this thread isn't about defending 2 rax by 14 hatch. It's about trying out different builds to defend 2rax. So really this post was pointless. So is this one
Well, there are no other ways if the T micros correctly. And even with 14 hatch you have to micro much much better than T. But the general consensus among pros is that you simply won't have enough larva to defend unless you 14 hatch, it's a straight up build order loss.
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Why do you keep doing this on Steppes?
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On December 16 2010 01:31 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why do you keep doing this on Steppes?
He says in the OP:
All the games will be on the map Steppes of War. This map is chosen because it is clearly the most difficult to defend for Zerg. If something works on Steppes, then we know it will work anywhere.
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I'm a 2500Z, I could use some help against 2rax openers too. Msg me anytime.
LambNRice.381
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On December 16 2010 01:25 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 07:09 Numy wrote:I believe this thread isn't about defending 2 rax by 14 hatch. It's about trying out different builds to defend 2rax. So really this post was pointless. So is this one Well, there are no other ways if the T micros correctly. And even with 14 hatch you have to micro much much better than T. But the general consensus among pros is that you simply won't have enough larva to defend unless you 14 hatch, it's a straight up build order loss.
There are a few pool-first builds that *appear* to generate more larvae than 14hatch. I say "appear", because there's a possible inconsistency in the testing method.
But 11overpool and 13h15p both appear to generate more larvae than 14 hatch builds.
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also you might try
early hatch + early pool to get earlier queens+ spawned larvae + hatch. e.g. 12h12p, 10h13p or 2extractor-12hatch-ovie-11pool. costs some eco, but is easier to defend and feels still like a hatch first build. Earlier pool+queen make up somewhat for initial larvae loss caused by mineral accumulation.
would just be curious if this works in high level play ..
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Saracen.276 if you need more testing. I can be either T or Z.
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On December 16 2010 01:20 mlbrandow wrote:
Judging from the replays you posted, you are definitely a better zerg player than I am, and so I hope you take this advice well:
make a roach warren and stop trying to maintain this delusion that fast expanding is better than 1-basing in every possible situation.
I watched 3 replays and saw a lot of poor decision-making that I would never do, and I am by no means an expert player.
Slow banelings vs. stimmed marines and marauders, and forcing an expansion when you see 5-10 SCVs accompanying a rush is just really poor teching.
You force muta/bane/ling against a guy who 1-bases with predominantly marine production.
In one replay your opponent said "5/7RR crushes this" and he's absolutely right. You can 7RR at 4:45 with 15 drones and it would be a cost win every time.
Your unreasonable commitment to fast expanding, forcing ling/bling/muta and your refusal to make an extra queen for transfuse and creep spread are what doom you consistently in these games.
When I play terran, I usually stick to a lot of marine heavy aggression, and the reason it works is because many players simply fail to adapt. You tech because you feel like you should, but almost every lair/hive unit is hard countered by stimmed marines.
Again, just make a roach warren. It's completely okay to one-base. Those bunkers are by no means invincible. And ESPECIALLY if you have an expansion up, why do you need to force aggression ON what is a failed bunker push (because of the creep).
Conclusion: You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. You're forcing a certain tech tree and an expansion when you know exactly that your opponent is committing to 1-base play, forever giving him the army advantage. You lose consistently because of this, and instead of changing your operating condition (must maximize personal economy), you force yourself into what is really a no-win situation.
You should be aware that denying your opponent's economy is as good or better than maximizing your own economy. Start thinking by "how can I earn and maintain an economic advantage over my opponent?" The answer, believe it or not, does not always reside in fast expanding and making the smallest possible army.
P.S. - While I disagree with a lot of what you post, I appreciate the high value that such threads as these hold in this forum and community. If more people operated their threads in this way, the world would be a better place! Thanks again for all your time and effort in this and other discussion threads.
Thanks for the advice... Unfortunately I think roach rushes are just too cheesy and sacrifice too much early economy for the damage they deal, which against strong, scouting opponents is usually very little. I am purposefully testing a risky build (hatch first against 2rax) because I am trying to determine if it is possible to defend, and how. I obviously wouldn't do this on ladder or in a tournament scenario lol... We are just practicing.
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On December 15 2010 05:32 jdseemoreglass wrote:Note: Please don't post here criticizing the players abilities or the map chosen, etc. We are just playing some practice games, not having a theorycraft debate. REPLAYS:[spoiler] lGy Series: lGy is an extremely skilled 2800+ Terran. I was determined to defend 14Hatch against his 2rax all-in, but I didn't succeed. Results: 14 Hatch 0-6
If you would like commentary on these three games:
For the first one, I think the most significant feature is that your delay gave the Terran time to create a wall in front of your natural. Then when you attacked, you attacked through the choke point in the wall, rather than making the short trip around the wall.
For the second one, I wonder if you hurt yourself by attacking the SCVs instead of the Marines. Also, after he threw away the last of the SCVs in his rush, you gave up too early. The game basically reset to the beginning, but with you having Pool + Hatch + Spine and him having 2*Barracks + Orbital + stockpiled minerals. So it's him making 3.5 SCV per minute with Mule support versus you making 8 Drones per minute (more once you get a queen again and your Drone count recovers).
The third one, I noticed you wasted a good bit of time with 3 Larvae on your main Hatchery. Also, attacking with just Zerglings and no Drones was an ill-fated choice.
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this is a great idea. i am also looking for a high rank diamond terran to do this with me.
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EPT
