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On December 12 2010 07:58 BlasiuS wrote:
gateway army + colossus -> roach + corruptor
etc.
I completely disagree. You need the hydra DPS in the back past a certain supply# or else your roaches just get FFed and then 70% of them bug out around behind those that are getting killed, doing NOTHING. Once you are at like 150 supply getting more roaches - especially with our current map pool - is just a waste of larvae and supply imo and a surefire way to lose in a 200/200 engagement.
Once I've started putting a small dash of hydras (like 10-15) into my maxed armies and started getting the right upgrades (roaches and hydras benefit from them nicely) I've fared noticely better while trying to re-max in that small timing where P has the potential to crush you with his ground forces.
If you max out on roach + corrupter your army just isn't worth anything and has the corresponding DPS output.
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if he has only t1 gateway army hydras perform better than roaches, but I still think you generally want to avoid them because you dont want to find yourself without an army when he decides to tech up,
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Roaches are the bread, hydras are the butter. Bread is fine by itself and butter by itself is terrible, but if you have bread with a touch of butter, it becomes glorious.
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On December 12 2010 08:09 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 07:58 BlasiuS wrote:
gateway army + colossus -> roach + corruptor
etc. I completely disagree. You need the hydra DPS in the back past a certain supply# or else your roaches just get FFed and then 70% of them bug out around behind those that are getting killed, doing NOTHING. Once you are at like 150 supply getting more roaches - especially with our current map pool - is just a waste of larvae and supply imo and a surefire way to lose in a 200/200 engagement. Once I've started putting a small dash of hydras (like 10-15) into my maxed armies and started getting the right upgrades (roaches and hydras benefit from them nicely) I've fared noticely better while trying to re-max in that small timing where P has the potential to crush you with his ground forces. If you max out on roach + corrupter your army just isn't worth anything and has the corresponding DPS output.
burrow and unburrow on top of him. a skilled P can keep half your army out of range even when you have hydra. you preferably want to take out the obs (which is not hard), but even when you dont, the lost dps from when you tunnel underground is easily made up from the much better position you have when you effectively surround him.
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On December 12 2010 08:14 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 08:09 ChickenLips wrote:On December 12 2010 07:58 BlasiuS wrote:
gateway army + colossus -> roach + corruptor
etc. I completely disagree. You need the hydra DPS in the back past a certain supply# or else your roaches just get FFed and then 70% of them bug out around behind those that are getting killed, doing NOTHING. Once you are at like 150 supply getting more roaches - especially with our current map pool - is just a waste of larvae and supply imo and a surefire way to lose in a 200/200 engagement. Once I've started putting a small dash of hydras (like 10-15) into my maxed armies and started getting the right upgrades (roaches and hydras benefit from them nicely) I've fared noticely better while trying to re-max in that small timing where P has the potential to crush you with his ground forces. If you max out on roach + corrupter your army just isn't worth anything and has the corresponding DPS output. burrow and unburrow on top of him. a skilled P can keep half your army out of range even when you have hydra. you preferably want to take out the obs (which is not hard), but even when you dont, the lost dps from when you tunnel underground is easily made up from the much better position you have when you effectively surround him.
That is such a gimmicky tactic. He will just put another layer of FF infront of him so you can never unburrow + micro back making your effective DPS = 0 while his colossus + stalkers rip your roaches apart.
Roaches are so slow burrowed they take like 5 seconds even getting past 1 FF. Add to that the time your opponent gets even more free hits while you burrow and then even more free hits when you finally unburrow. I promise you this won't work in a 200/200 battle.
Also saying FF affects roaches (range 4) the same as hydras (range 7) is just pure ignorance.
Burrow is just utter crap when your opponent has detection. I've NEVER seen it put to good use. Just keep your stuff above ground and hope it deals as much damage as possible.
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Yup
You can use burrow when: He 6gates / 4gates you and has no obs or when he goes HT to engage/heal
But I never saw someone burrow move under a stalker/coloss ball
I also disagree with going pure roach corrupter just because
-Roaches are not worth their supply so your 200 supply army will get ripped apart
-The more roaches you have the more they get owned by FF
-You need the hydras for dps
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burrow works. 0 dps for 5 seconds is not that worse than only half your army hitting (and getting killed) for the duration of the force fields. You will make corruptors anyway, just remember overseers and the obs will be automatically sniped. it is the only thing that I can get to work reliably against lategame colossi deathballs.
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Roaches are really really buff units. They can take a sht load of hits, even from colossus, and come out looking fine. Hydralisks were mainly used because of roach's lack of range, and because hydras have such nice dps. But considering that they helped roach by +1 range, roaches are becoming WAY more common in a zerg army. Colossus can get easily sniped with corruptors.
You could say it's kind of like a terran complaining about colossus, and saying marines suck donkey balls. But marines are awesome, and have a good dps. Obviously, like terran, you need the air to air unit to take care of the colossus, but without the colossus, the protoss army gets owned so fast.
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On December 12 2010 08:54 dementrio wrote:
burrow works. 0 dps for 5 seconds is not that worse than only half your army hitting (and getting killed) for the duration of the force fields. You will make corruptors anyway, just remember overseers and the obs will be automatically sniped. it is the only thing that I can get to work reliably against lategame colossi deathballs.
i would love to see some replays because in theory it sounds _extremely_ bad.
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On December 12 2010 07:49 majestouch wrote:
because 1 phoenix > mutalisk^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞
assuming you know how to kite.
And assuming you can't micro ur mutas ...
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On December 12 2010 07:49 majestouch wrote:
because 1 phoenix > mutalisk^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞^∞
assuming you know how to kite.
That's simply not true. Yeah, we've all seen the stupid Youtube video of one Phoenix beating some obscene number of Mutas.
Guess what? If the enemy has only a handful of Phoenix, and outnumber them significantly with Mutas, you just ignore the Phoenix and keep harassing the Toss economy for a slow, but sure, win.
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Does everybody really get colossi often enough to base your entire playstyle around it? O.o
I know that I'm weird cause I just straight up DON'T make colossi, but surely people don't make them every game in PvZ do they? They just seem so useless if the zerg has a spire, plus wtf am I going to do against mutas if I even try making a large colossi force?
Colossi just make me sad...wish people wouldn't use them.
As for the OP, Roach hydra is ALL about the macro. Your first army won't kill the Toss, but the 3rd, 4rd or 5th will. You just need to get to that big nasty 4 + bases just throwing stupid numbers of units at the Toss, or at least thats how roach hydra beats me.
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If toss goes phoenix, I drone HARD, get 2 evo chambers, lair tech, range attack and carapace asap, then roach and hydra with roach speed and hydra range. On two base, you can get an enormous amount of roach/hydra before colossus finishes, enough to do terrible, terrible damage.
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The only time I go hydras in ZvP is if the toss opens stargate. Other than that, I find mutas to be superior.
Does everybody really get colossi often enough to base your entire playstyle around it? O.o
I know that I'm weird cause I just straight up DON'T make colossi, but surely people don't make them every game in PvZ do they? They just seem so useless if the zerg has a spire, plus wtf am I going to do against mutas if I even try making a large colossi force?
Colossi just make me sad...wish people wouldn't use them.
As for the OP, Roach hydra is ALL about the macro. Your first army won't kill the Toss, but the 3rd, 4rd or 5th will. You just need to get to that big nasty 4 + bases just throwing stupid numbers of units at the Toss, or at least thats how roach hydra beats me.
It's not just colossi, it's also high templar with storm. In any case, if you get 4+ bases, throwing ANYTHING at your opponent will get you a win =/.
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I share the same feelings with this guy. I have done nothing but muta/ling to diamond, and every damn time I go for hydras, I get rolled over. I know that it is a great strategy many people have been using versus protoss, so I'll try geting better with that composition.
E: Can anyone give me a solid build order for roach hydra? Thanks.
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I've done Ling muta a lot before, it was my only zvp build. I was superb at defending 4gates and getting mapcontroll with mutalisks. However, ling muta has some severe timings in which it gets completely stomped on ( when there aren't many muta's, or if you have a sentry zealot ball and ff the zerglings into chokes everytime ).
Once I started getting roaches more, I now was able to push protosses natural. Which isn't that easy with just lings. And roaches are a nice transition into the mid/late game. Whereas just getting mutalisks is not I feel.
Oh and phoenixes just completely topple your plans to go muta anyway. So going ling-muta every game you will bound to fight versus a phoenixing player.
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On December 13 2010 02:00 VirtuallyLost wrote:
Can anyone give me a solid build order for roach hydra? Thanks.
Has been posted in this thread already
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In later-game when stalkers are upgraded you want hydras to deal with them because if you only have muta roach you'll probably lose, and also ultras don't do very well on certain maps
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Roach hydra is cost effective against just about everything but mass colossi or immortals or psi storm. If you sent equal cost roach/hydra at mass stalker w/ 2 colossi, you will win with half decent positioning. Protoss needs to fubar you with forcefields or have immortals to deal with the roaches, otherwise its an uphill battle short of having 4-5 colossi (at which point you just mass corruptor). Oh and roach hydra scales much better with upgrades than any protoss unit.
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EPT
