EPTI don't really have a problem with roaches, but the hydras are the weakest link in this matchup. They just die so quickly to any form of AoE. Is Roach/Hydra just a bad unit composition? I suspect it isn't and I just don't know how to play with it. Can someone give me a basic idea of how to play with roach/hydra?
[Q] Why would you ever go Roach/Hydra vs Protoss
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
I don't really have a problem with roaches, but the hydras are the weakest link in this matchup. They just die so quickly to any form of AoE. Is Roach/Hydra just a bad unit composition? I suspect it isn't and I just don't know how to play with it. Can someone give me a basic idea of how to play with roach/hydra? | ||
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Daria
Australia500 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Also understand that you can go slings first for map control and scouting. Going roach/hydra should be like this: Early game - toss has map control until ling speed, when Z takes map control Early-mid - Zerg gives up map control to the Toss sentry+ zeal numbers until roach speed finishes Mid - Zerg retakes map control with roach speed/burrow, and attempts to hit a mid-game timing Later mid - Protoss regains map control with observors and immortals Early late - Zerg's hydras once again give him the army advantage, forcing Toss to turtle until colossi Late - Toss regains map control with his 3rd and 4th colossi and attempts to hit his late game timing Later - Zerg defends by adding 8-12 corruptors, controlling Toss colossi numbers End Game - Roach/Brood + very limited hydra numbers clash with the Toss deathball to decide the game. At no point are you actually relying on the hydras to win you the game. Their sole purpose is to deal with immortals while you transition into your corruptors, and eventual broodlords. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
mixing in a few hydras late game can help boost your armies dps, but for the most part i stay away from them which is a damn shame because hydras are the reason i play zerg. | ||
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Vanity
United States28 Posts
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diegonolan
United States54 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
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DoctaD
35 Posts
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Jarlax
76 Posts
14 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 quuen 21 gas another queen when first finish spine crawler, drones to 30, overlord spine crawler ling speed with 100 gas, take second gas (if 4gate u need scout it and put 3 more spines at this point, delay gas and lair a bit, stop drone, spam lings) lair with next 100 gas another 2 spines around 34-38, 6 lings, drones 42-44 roach warren -> as soon as its finished roach speed burrow from lair so they both finish same time (till they finish only make roaches no drones) when they r done push with roaches, put 2 gas on natural, put hydra den, put 3rd base, drones till hydra den is constructing then only hydras till u get like 16-20 + get 3rd queen transfer drones to 3rd, take 2 gas on expo, put 2 evo chambers, get 4th base, get +1/+1, get spire, get few drones 4th base finish get corruptors, build infestors pit, start getting +2/+2, build 2 gas on 4th base and start 5th base, get overlord speed and drops, start hive as soon as finished greater spire and make only hydras + corruptors, morph broodlords, push, keep reinforcing, win. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:42 Jarlax wrote: I think starting with roaches is not good idea unless u want go all-in or very aggressive. But going lings -> speed lings -> speed roach -> hydra -> corrupter -> broodlord is quite good. Dunno about others but i start something along this lines against protos: 14 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 quuen 21 gas another queen when first finish spine crawler, drones to 30, overlord spine crawler ling speed with 100 gas, take second gas (if 4gate u need scout it and put 3 more spines at this point, delay gas and lair a bit, stop drone, spam lings) lair with next 100 gas another 2 spines around 34-38, 6 lings, drones 42-44 roach warren -> as soon as its finished roach speed burrow from lair so they both finish same time (till they finish only make roaches no drones) when they r done push with roaches, put 2 gas on natural, put hydra den, put 3rd base, drones till hydra den is constructing then only hydras till u get like 16-20 + get 3rd queen transfer drones to 3rd, take 2 gas on expo, put 2 evo chambers, get 4th base, get +1/+1, get spire, get few drones 4th base finish get corruptors, build infestors pit, start getting +2/+2, build 2 gas on 4th base and start 5th base, get overlord speed and drops, start hive as soon as finished greater spire and make only hydras + corruptors, morph broodlords, push, keep reinforcing, win. This is correct, textbook roach play. ^^ :D | ||
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ishkabibble
Canada161 Posts
I would go muta ling against toss since your mobility makes it hard for the protos to keep enough bases late game without getting all their workers killed by harassment, or go ultra heavy with mutas since ultras can beat stalkers and colossi fairly well (unless on a cliff) which often composes much of toss's late game army. | ||
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:17 Xanbatou wrote: I just don't understand it. Time and time again I try this army composition and almost every time I get absolutely destroyed. Protoss has two tech trees that just absolutely demolish this army composition (templar and colossus). I feel so much more comfortable with some form of ling opening because you can actually have map control and feel aggressive. Roach/Hydra gives you absolutely no map control for the early-game. The only time roach/hydra is ever good is if the opponent gets nothing but t1 units. Even then, roach/hydra is incredibly vunerable to any sort of forcefielding play, especially in chokes. I don't really have a problem with roaches, but the hydras are the weakest link in this matchup. They just die so quickly to any form of AoE. Is Roach/Hydra just a bad unit composition? I suspect it isn't and I just don't know how to play with it. Can someone give me a basic idea of how to play with roach/hydra? The stength of hydra is that once you are saturated on your 2 bases you can instantly take map control anywhere where you have creep, because hydra will rape the gateway army composition. So then you can start your third, and start switching to Roaches, while you scout if he's going colossus or high templar. Colossi take a long time to build, and you need a lot of them to be good otherwise you'll run out of sentries, so that gives you a time to get up a spire, and since you're building roaches, you'll accumulate some gas on 4 geyesers, and then you get a bunch of corruptors, and bam, you have a decent composition to deal with colossus. If he's going templar you have a timing to attack him before amulet kicks in, and you'll have great map control because of that so you can get a 4th base. | ||
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kerminator
Austria75 Posts
The general idea of roach hydra i have: Get an early expand (i do 14 pool 16 hatch) and drone hard but scout properly ofc. You get Roaches with speed and burrow at lair tech... so you can fight off 4gates and 6gates and pressure the toss if he has expanded. Also you can prevent him from taking a third. Expand behind this. Meanwhile he will have to add immortals and you'll get +1/+1 and hyras with range upgrade. Then take 4th and add a spire because he will pump colossi by now. If the toss gets colossi you can fend off with roaches and hydras (range upgrade crucial) BUT you will need corrupters and a good position to fight. Hydras are weak but they are important for dps and he will not be able to target them with colossi if your roaches and hydras are posistioned correctly. If he moves forward with colossi then you can just focus them down. Also you have to upgrade to +2/+2 and +3/+3 later. You can then add a greater spire to add broods. If the toss goes storm i'm usually doing fine by researching tunneling claws and pump roaches only. It feels a bit odd first, but once you time it out correctly (and the toss doesnt do some crazy stuff) you will have roaches against gateway units, then roach hydra against gateway units+immortal and then roach/hydra/corrupter against his stalker/coloss ball. If he gets a third too early or fast techs colossi off two base you can punish him with your roaches. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
One my lair is up, I will throw down a spire. Since I am only making lings at this point I have a ton of gas saved up. Once my spire pops, I make a shitton of mutas and take complete map control. I will always get a third at this point, but sometimes I will take it earlier if I have enough lings and +1 is done. I just do not see any value in going roach hydra when you can use a strategy like this. The only time I have a problem is against players with good phoenix control and cannon placement, as it more or less shuts down my mutas. I need to figure out the best thing to transition into when that happens. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:29 MrBitter wrote: You have to realize that hydras aren't supposed to make up the body of your strategy. They're transitory units to get you through the Toss player's immortal transition. Also understand that you can go slings first for map control and scouting. Going roach/hydra should be like this: Early game - toss has map control until ling speed, when Z takes map control Early-mid - Zerg gives up map control to the Toss sentry+ zeal numbers until roach speed finishes Mid - Zerg retakes map control with roach speed/burrow, and attempts to hit a mid-game timing Later mid - Protoss regains map control with observors and immortals Early late - Zerg's hydras once again give him the army advantage, forcing Toss to turtle until colossi Late - Toss regains map control with his 3rd and 4th colossi and attempts to hit his late game timing Later - Zerg defends by adding 8-12 corruptors, controlling Toss colossi numbers End Game - Roach/Brood + very limited hydra numbers clash with the Toss deathball to decide the game. At no point are you actually relying on the hydras to win you the game. Their sole purpose is to deal with immortals while you transition into your corruptors, and eventual broodlords. This is fairly correct. Unfortunately good Protoss will abuse whatever timings you choose (you go for early speedburrow roach pressure they turtle / you go for more drones they feint pressure right as you are vulnerable) and then tech straight to colossus completely skipping the phase of hydra domination. It's incredibly hard to deal with since you will not get good corrupter numbers out before he completely crushes your ground army with all those damn sentries. Thank god not many Protosses are good and rather rely on their stupid blind timings instead of actually playing the game  | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
assuming you know how to kite. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Only make enough hydra to kill the things that kill roaches, which are immortals, phoenix, and void rays. If he's not making any immortals, phoenix, or void rays, you have no reason to make hydras, so if his army is only made up of zealot/sentry/stalker/templar/archon/dt, you should stick with pure 100% roach army, with possibly the exception of making some hydras if he has a HUGE number of sentries, however, having a disproportionately large # of sentries in a toss army will make it's over all DPS shit, so that hardly ever happens. gateway army -> roach gateway army + void ray/immortal/phoenix -> roach + small amounts of hydra gateway army + colossus -> roach + corruptor gateway army + immortals + colossus -> roach + small amounts of hydra + enough corruptors to kill the colossus. etc. | ||
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