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On December 12 2010 10:36 Skrag wrote:
Because an early queen is better than an early hatch, and I guarantee that build is going to waste so much larvae while waiting for 300 that it will at least offset (and maybe worse) the extra larvae from the faster hatch. 11 overpool barely squeaks by wasting half a larva, and it doesn't have to wait for 300 mins.
Building your second queen at 24supply is going to put you even further behind just about everything else in larvae as well.
Unless you can produce a replay that can compete economically with any of the other builds tested, it doesn't even seem worth the time to add the AI for it.
1) "Queen is better than hatch". In general: yes, but not at this point in time. A hatch at 3.20 produces larvae immediately. There is no way to have additional larvae at this time in the game by using a queen, because you need pool to build a queen ofc.
2) loosing larvae. Summarized, you loose ~0.8 larvae (compared to 14h15p) while waiting, because the early hatch produces larvae earlier, which makes up a bit (1 larvae).
3) second queen. Can be produced earlier, however in real world games i tend to delay it, maybe i should experiment a bit.
4) economy. According to the bo-calculator it is ~130 behind 14h15p at 6'11. That's not significant. Having to pull off drone to fend of some early harass is much more expensive.
the build is pretty equal to 14h15p, however it sacrifies a minimal amount of eco (.8 larvae) to have your expansion to finish ~17 seconds earlier. The economic differences look huge if you compare at 6 minutes because of the exponential nature of the economy process. However in real world even slight errors in timings can cause 200-300 difference in income at 6'00, so one should weight defendability and safety higher. Ever thought of presenting percentage numbers instead of absolute "minerals mined" numbers ? Actual 4600 at 6'00 compared to 4400 should be regarded econonmy-wise equal. IMHO Prefer the 4400 build, if it lowers the risk of early trouble somewhat.
Any hatch first build will give you a large production advantage, the main problem is early defendatibility. BTW 12h12pool looks interesting also XD
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Can you generate a rep of it coming anywhere close to any of the posted builds? I'd also want a full drone race build out to 52 supply, including optimal overlord timings, before I'd consider adding it.
Also, I *really* don't trust the results of build order calculators or optimizers. I've seen them give completely nonsensical results too often.
Also, eco sacrifice isn't just larvae. A decent amount of the 11pool's eco sacrifice comes from the fact that drones after 11 come later. Early drone delays matter a lot more than late ones.
One more quick note. Hatch at 3:20 is just *barely* faster than a 14 hatch.
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On December 12 2010 11:54 Skrag wrote:
Can you generate a rep of it coming anywhere close to any of the posted builds? I'd also want a full drone race build out to 52 supply, including optimal overlord timings, before I'd consider adding it.
Also, I *really* don't trust the results of build order calculators or optimizers. I've seen them give completely nonsensical results too often.
Also, eco sacrifice isn't just larvae. A decent amount of the 11pool's eco sacrifice comes from the fact that drones after 11 come later. Early drone delays matter a lot more than late ones.
One more quick note. Hatch at 3:20 is just *barely* faster than a 14 hatch.
Maybe you're right .. i've got a better one (well never played it actually  (but played 11h13p) )
10 Double Extractor Trick into Drone [2]
12 Hatchery
11 Overlord
11 Spawning Pool
15 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae
17 Overlord
23 Overlord
23 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae
26 Overlord
again scnd queen timing is questionable. however pool and hatch are earlier. will post a replay tomorrow (even if this is worse, its interesting to find out how much eco is sacrificed in favor of timings).
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I actually tried 12hatch, both before and after the overlord, when the other thread was running its course, and couldn't get it to be better than 11pool, much less anything else.
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On December 12 2010 12:18 Skrag wrote:
I actually tried 12hatch, both before and after the overlord, when the other thread was running its course, and couldn't get it to be better than 11pool, much less anything else.
if its equal to 11p18h, that's fine. actually i am looking for a safe hatch first, having expo and a spine up before those damned marines arrive ;-). 11 pool is easily containable .. viable zvz at best. if you get your queen sniped while being still one base its instant gg.
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Thanks for all the build orders guys. I'm going to start taking a look at some of them.
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On December 12 2010 07:18 Skrag wrote:
Ok, gamereplays.org won't even let me upload the replay, claiming it's corrupted, presumably because the way I've done things won't allow for viewing the replay without the map. I'm guessing it's because I actually made changes to the terrain layer, adding some locator points.
Hey Skrag. I've encountered this issue before. It may not be the map. I know this because I got the same issue with a replay on the original Xel'Naga map. I think the difference at that time was that I didn't include a computer opponent when I played. I just played by myself. I just thought you should know since you seemed to be assuming it was because you changed the map.
I was able to post those replays on a different replay sites by the way. You should try that.
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Okay, just for future reference, in order for me to do a full test on a build it has to beat one of the 5 hatch first or pool first builds listed in the OP on its first try. If I try and it doesn't do this, I will let you know, but I will not do a full test.
Also, nothing against you Schnullerbacke13, but none of your build orders work economically. Also, they're slow.
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On December 12 2010 11:04 Cambam wrote:SCBuildOrder says 12 pool 16 hatch is best. Sounds good if it's true, since the pool finishes around 2:40. Here's the BO: + Show Spoiler +10 Extractor Trick
11 Overlord
12 Spawning Pool
14 Queen
16 Hatchery
16 Overlord
18 Queen
21 Overlord
29 Overlord
40 Overlord Also, I'd like to see the results for 16 pool 15 hatch. Very economical, while being a little safer because pool finishes around 3:10. Though the hatch is susceptible to getting blocked  . Don't really have a refined build for it. Hmm...while trying to find a refined build for it, EvolutionChamber came up with this build: + Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
16 SpawningPool
15 Hatchery
15 Overlord
15 Hatchery
15 Queen
22 Queen
26 Overlord
28 Overlord
38 Overlord It'd be interesting to see how a 3 hatch build compares to all these 2 hatch builds. The extra larva would be nice if you're planning on making a lot of lings or roaches (larva intensive units) after you get your econ going.
I tried the 12/16 you proposed. It turned out barely behind the 11/18 in the trial.
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Actually a 13 hatch + most economical pool is of big interest since it is the _perfect_ timing on 4player maps against a 9pylon scout on cross positions and later. With a 14 hatch he arrives just in time to deny it. Sure it isn't of big theoretical relevance compared to more economical builds, however in a real game you will not be able to do these anyway since your friendly opponent will deny your hatchery.
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On December 12 2010 21:43 ChickenLips wrote:
Actually a 13 hatch + most economical pool is of big interest since it is the _perfect_ timing on 4player maps against a 9pylon scout on cross positions and later. With a 14 hatch he arrives just in time to deny it. Sure it isn't of big theoretical relevance compared to more economical builds, however in a real game you will not be able to do these anyway since your friendly opponent will deny your hatchery.
Interesting point. I do note that I haven't tested any 13H builds  I'll have to try one.
EDIT: I tried a 13H/15P build and it actually didn't do bad at all on the first try. I'll be posting the results when I'm finished doing the analysis. From it's first trial it may actually be better than the 14/15.
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On December 12 2010 19:21 jacobman wrote:
Okay, just for future reference, in order for me to do a full test on a build it has to beat one of the 5 hatch first or pool first builds listed in the OP on its first try. If I try and it doesn't do this, I will let you know, but I will not do a full test.
Also, nothing against you Schnullerbacke13, but none of your build orders work economically. Also, they're slow.
Wut ?! Prepare for war ;-)
i actually refined and tried 12 hatch 11 pool, played it on "slowest" on xel naga. Its not executed perfect (did not have time to test when and how many drones to maynard). Then played 14h15p (with same imperfectness) and you know what ? 12h11p is equal to slightly better at 6'20. Even if it feels really awkward waiting such a long time at 10/12, earlier queen and pool make up for this later on. You can spend your ressources much better.
compared to 14p15h
* pool is 14 seconds earlier
* hatch is 20 seconds earlier (no probe block)
* queens are 15..20 seconds earlier (that's ~ half a spawn larvae)
Here is the BO (times are computed, ignore them, i use them for comparision purposes only):
# created by ZBO 0.5
10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43
9/10 BuildExtractor @00'48
10/10 CancelExtractor @01'07
11/10 CancelExtractor @01'08
12/10 BuildHatch @01'40
11/10 BuildOvie @01'52
11/18 BuildPool @02'18
16/18 BuildOvie @03'24
16/18 BuildQueen @03'25
18/20 BuildQueen @03'41
20/20 BuildOvie @03'45
26/36 BuildOvie @04'26
34/44 BuildOvie @04'56
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173308.jpg)
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On December 12 2010 23:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 19:21 jacobman wrote:
Okay, just for future reference, in order for me to do a full test on a build it has to beat one of the 5 hatch first or pool first builds listed in the OP on its first try. If I try and it doesn't do this, I will let you know, but I will not do a full test.
Also, nothing against you Schnullerbacke13, but none of your build orders work economically. Also, they're slow. Wut ?! Prepare for war ;-) i actually refined and tried 12 extractor 11 pool, played it on "slowest" on xel naga. Its not executed perfect (did not have time to test when and how many drones to maynard). Then played 14h15p (with same imperfectness) and you know what ? 12h11p is equal to slightly better at 6'20. Even if it feels really awkward waiting such a long time at 10/12, earlier queen and pool make up for this later on. You can spend your ressources much better. compared to 14p15h * pool is 14 seconds earlier * hatch is 20 seconds earlier (no probe block) * queens are 15..20 seconds earlier (that's ~ half a spawn larvae) Here is the BO (times are computed, ignore them, i use them for comparision purposes only): # created by ZBO 0.5 10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43 9/10 BuildExtractor @00'48 10/10 CancelExtractor @01'07 11/10 CancelExtractor @01'08 12/10 BuildHatch @01'40 11/10 BuildOvie @01'52 11/18 BuildPool @02'18 16/18 BuildOvie @03'24 16/18 BuildQueen @03'25 18/20 BuildQueen @03'41 20/20 BuildOvie @03'45 26/36 BuildOvie @04'26 34/44 BuildOvie @04'56 will add a replay soon ..
Thanks for the ovie timings. I'll try the build one more time. If it does really well like you're saying I'll do some more tests.
EDIT: I tested your build with the AI. It came out 200 minerals behind any other build that has been tested so far with the first test. That, coupled with how little you have to defend yourself in the beginning with this build would appear to make this build both not good economy and very risky.
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EDIT: I tested your build with the AI. It came out 200 minerals behind any other build that has been tested so far with the first test. That, coupled with how little you have to defend yourself in the beginning with this build would appear to make this build both not good economy and very risky.
?? it is the most larvae generating build (around 4:00 .. 5:00 because of earlier inject) and gets pool significantly faster than any other hatch first. Also you get a spine up (in case) earlier than any other hatch first.
Its real safe, since the weak timing window is extremely early (before any 2 rax push or 2 gate arrives), so it is way more safe than 14h 15 pool. maybe it will be not 200 mins behind if you tweak it a bit (drone maynard). I'd recommend to add this to your build list, its a close position-safe hatch first build. Anyway beeing 200 mins behind at 6'20 is not too much a price for earlier defense.
Pls check the timings of early pressure .. 2 rax is ~4:30 earliest. You'll have earlier lings to defend bunker rush.
EDIT: can you post the numbers of your AI test, i'd be interested on the exact price payed for earlier hatch ?
EDIT1: do you have replays of the AI build execution ? I can't reproduce the results. I am not about to get the "Hey my build is the best"-syndrome (like the overpool guys out there). I just want to know the price of timings. 14h15p tends to stockpile mins, 12h11p tends to stockpile larvae somewhat while having earlier lings+queens. Maybe one suits close position maps, the other larger ones. I am just curious to get exact numbers 'bout the trade off. At the end there is no one-size-fits-it-all build.
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On December 13 2010 01:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +
EDIT: I tested your build with the AI. It came out 200 minerals behind any other build that has been tested so far with the first test. That, coupled with how little you have to defend yourself in the beginning with this build would appear to make this build both not good economy and very risky.
?? it is the most larvae generating build (around 4:00 .. 5:00 because of earlier inject) and gets pool significantly faster than any other hatch first. Also you get a spine up (in case) earlier than any other hatch first. Its real safe, since the weak timing window is extremely early (before any 2 rax push or 2 gate arrives), so it is way more safe than 14h 15 pool. maybe it will be not 200 mins behind if you tweak it a bit (drone maynard). I'd recommend to add this to your build list, its a close position-safe hatch first build. Anyway beeing 200 mins behind at 6'20 is not too much a price for earlier defense. Pls check the timings of early pressure .. 2 rax is ~4:30 earliest. You'll have earlier lings to defend bunker rush.
2rax is 2 marines + whatever amount of SCVs he wants by 4.00 -4.10 in your natural.
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On December 13 2010 01:20 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 01:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
EDIT: I tested your build with the AI. It came out 200 minerals behind any other build that has been tested so far with the first test. That, coupled with how little you have to defend yourself in the beginning with this build would appear to make this build both not good economy and very risky.
?? it is the most larvae generating build (around 4:00 .. 5:00 because of earlier inject) and gets pool significantly faster than any other hatch first. Also you get a spine up (in case) earlier than any other hatch first. Its real safe, since the weak timing window is extremely early (before any 2 rax push or 2 gate arrives), so it is way more safe than 14h 15 pool. maybe it will be not 200 mins behind if you tweak it a bit (drone maynard). I'd recommend to add this to your build list, its a close position-safe hatch first build. Anyway beeing 200 mins behind at 6'20 is not too much a price for earlier defense. Pls check the timings of early pressure .. 2 rax is ~4:30 earliest. You'll have earlier lings to defend bunker rush. 2rax is 2 marines + whatever amount of SCVs he wants by 4.00 -4.10 in your natural.
well depends .. at least 12h11p has lings + spine finished at that time
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Okay, so I've done more tests on the 13H/15P and it has come out ahead of the 14H/15P. It's really close, but after 5 runs it was ahead. It's possible with more tests it would be behind, but not by much. It's really close. Either way, if what lips said is true about a 13 hatch being able to be quicker than a normal 9 pylon scout on most maps, this would easily make the 13H/15P build the best hatch first build so far.
Anyone want to verify the 9 pylon scout timing?
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On December 13 2010 01:29 jacobman wrote:
Okay, so I've done more tests on the 13H/15P and it has come out ahead of the 14H/15P. It's really close, but after 5 runs it was ahead. Either way, if what lips said is true about a 13 hatch being able to be quicker than a normal 9 pylon scout on most maps, this would easily make the 13H/15P build the best build so far.
Anyone want to verify the 9 pylon scout timing?
OH THE BABY!!
:D
+ Show Spoiler +
I can confirm it 100% from personal experience. On LT and Metalopolis if he does the normal scout timing and heads straight for your natural expansion. If your opponent isn't bad and turns around in each main right as he has vision of the area where the creep is supposed to be he will arrive in time for a 14 hatch every time.
Anyways, what about 13h/14p ? So far I've really loved x hatch / x+1 pool builds because both buildings finish at the exact same time and allow for very smooth double queenage.
If you give me the timing of the 13h I can compare it to some practice games I've played yesterday against Terran and Protoss opponents that regularely try to deny hatch firsts.
Also 13/13 and 13/12 would be interesting. Sometimes you see your opponent going for zealot+cannon pressure or 2rax builds and you want zerglings as fast as possible. I wonder how much the economic trade-off is. If f.e. 13/12 is only behind by a few minerals it would certainly pose a very attractice combination of economy and flexibility. (And after all this thread seems to also take defendability into account)
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On December 13 2010 01:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +
EDIT: I tested your build with the AI. It came out 200 minerals behind any other build that has been tested so far with the first test. That, coupled with how little you have to defend yourself in the beginning with this build would appear to make this build both not good economy and very risky.
?? it is the most larvae generating build (around 4:00 .. 5:00 because of earlier inject) and gets pool significantly faster than any other hatch first. Also you get a spine up (in case) earlier than any other hatch first. Its real safe, since the weak timing window is extremely early (before any 2 rax push or 2 gate arrives), so it is way more safe than 14h 15 pool. maybe it will be not 200 mins behind if you tweak it a bit (drone maynard). I'd recommend to add this to your build list, its a close position-safe hatch first build. Anyway beeing 200 mins behind at 6'20 is not too much a price for earlier defense. Pls check the timings of early pressure .. 2 rax is ~4:30 earliest. You'll have earlier lings to defend bunker rush. EDIT: can you post the numbers of your AI test, i'd be interested on the exact price payed for earlier hatch ? EDIT1: do you have replays of the AI build execution ? I can't reproduce the results. I am not about to get the "Hey my build is the best"-syndrome (like the overpool guys out there). I just want to know the price of timings. 14h15p tends to stockpile mins, 12h11p tends to stockpile larvae somewhat while having earlier lings+queens. Maybe one suits close position maps, the other larger ones. I am just curious to get exact numbers 'bout the trade off. At the end there is no one-size-fits-it-all build.
4930 something was the result of the test. No other build I have tested so far has dropped below 5100. Also, the pool gets up slower than a 14H/13P with less minerals to spend.
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On December 13 2010 01:35 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 01:29 jacobman wrote:
Okay, so I've done more tests on the 13H/15P and it has come out ahead of the 14H/15P. It's really close, but after 5 runs it was ahead. Either way, if what lips said is true about a 13 hatch being able to be quicker than a normal 9 pylon scout on most maps, this would easily make the 13H/15P build the best build so far.
Anyone want to verify the 9 pylon scout timing? OH THE BABY!! :D + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrwRn9IlEE I can confirm it 100% from personal experience. On LT and Metalopolis if he does the normal scout timing and heads straight for your natural expansion. If your opponent isn't bad and turns around in each main right as he has vision of the area where the creep is supposed to be he will arrive in time for a 14 hatch every time. Anyways, what about 13h/14p ? So far I've really loved x hatch / x+1 pool builds because both buildings finish at the exact same time and allow for very smooth double queenage. If you give me the timing of the 13h I can compare it to some practice games I've played yesterday against Terran and Protoss opponents that regularely try to deny hatch firsts. Also 13/13 and 13/12 would be interesting. Sometimes you see your opponent going for zealot+cannon pressure or 2rax builds and you want zerglings as fast as possible. I wonder how much the economic trade-off is. If f.e. 13/12 is only behind by a few minerals it would certainly pose a very attractice combination of economy and flexibility. (And after all this thread seems to also take defendability into account)
I tried 13/13 first and it did not do nearly as well. I'll double check the replay. I posted the build order and the timings. It's basically just the 14/15 though. It's not a huge change.
If you try it on the ladder, let me know what you find as far as your expansions getting blocked.
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EPT
