EPTI have the 13hatch being 4 seconds faster, and the pool being 2 seconds later.
Pushing The Limits of Zerg Economy Builds - Page 11
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
I have the 13hatch being 4 seconds faster, and the pool being 2 seconds later. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 13 2010 09:03 jacobman wrote: Thanks. I was figuring that might be the case. I was contemplating extending the number of trials to 10 for really close ones like these two builds. I was thinking about how you use the fixed random seed. Although that makes for great quick testing, I'm going to guess that it's probably more accurate to do it the way I have the main post set up. In the fixed seed version you're only looking at one state, which can affect different builds differently since each build usually has different times that particular drones hatch. Basically, I think I'm going to continue doing the multiple attempt approach. It is likely to some extent more accurate if you're trying to get a final result. I'm not sure the fixed seed really will really have that big of an effect, and I think it actually makes the testing *more* accurate. While it's true that it is only testing one exact state, with different seeds (and different specific drone micro), the end result should be pretty damn near identical, because the thing that the drone micro is gaining is consistency due to the fact that each drone that comes out mines as optimally as it can from the point it is created. Without doing that optimal micro, your results will actually vary by a lot more, because the settle-in effect can make a pretty big difference. Obviously there could be slight differences with different random seeds, but I'm pretty convinced those differences will be a *lot* smaller than the differences I saw before adding the drone micro, and the differences that runs without micro can show, because without the drone micro, even using a fixed seed (which is obviously not perfect somehow), I was seeing differences as big as 80 minerals on different runs of the same build. Please don't read that as me trying to discourage you from the method of testing you're using though, because having different testing methods, and showing consistent results between the two, gives even that much more weight to the results.  | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 13 2010 09:12 Skrag wrote: Ok, so my results have 13h15p being 10 minerals behind 14h15p at the 6 minute mark, but about half a larva ahead. Between 1:50 and 5:30, 13h is 20-40 minerals behind, after 5:30 it seems to be 5-10. I have the 13hatch being 4 seconds faster, and the pool being 2 seconds later. Yeah, that's about the number I was intuitively guessing just from looking at the results as they came in. One of the trials put the 13H/15P at over 5400 minerals at the 6:20 mark! That's the largest number I saw from any build and seemed high compared to the other numbers. Like I said it just seemed like an outlier, so I figured it would skew the final results slightly. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
1) 12 hatch and 11 hatch build possibilities 2) when 1 is done, I want to try and narrow down the 13 and 14 hatch builds to the absolute most refined version of overlord and pool timings. 3) start testing some of these builds in play. I have my friend testing the 13 Hatch 15 Pool right now. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
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TanukTanukTuk
United States40 Posts
"Best" econ build: 5300 minerals @6:19 "Worst" econ build: 5150 minerals @6:19. So let's put that into perspective. A drone mines about 2/3 minerals per second. Over 60 seconds that's about 40 minerals. So do the best econ build, pull a drone off a close mineral patch for 4 minutes. That's what we're saying the difference is between 11pool and 13pool 15hatch so to say it's "the best" is objectively true but somewhat misleading in that the margin by which it's winning seems pretty small. Also for the larvae, as far as I can see the difference between the best and worst is 4 larvae...so I mean drop a creep tumor and now you're back at the "worst" build. By no means am I trying to say what the OP said is wrong, just trying to make sure nobody interprets the results incorrectly. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On December 13 2010 16:09 TanukTanukTuk wrote: I just wanted to point out that the conclusions I think are somewhat misleading. While it's clear that the graphs show that the bars looks significantly higher for some builds over others, I'd like to put some of the results into perspective: "Best" econ build: 5300 minerals @6:19 "Worst" econ build: 5150 minerals @6:19. So let's put that into perspective. A drone mines about 2/3 minerals per second. Over 60 seconds that's about 40 minerals. So do the best econ build, pull a drone off a close mineral patch for 4 minutes. That's what we're saying the difference is between 11pool and 13pool 15hatch so to say it's "the best" is objectively true but somewhat misleading in that the margin by which it's winning seems pretty small. Also for the larvae, as far as I can see the difference between the best and worst is 4 larvae...so I mean drop a creep tumor and now you're back at the "worst" build. By no means am I trying to say what the OP said is wrong, just trying to make sure nobody interprets the results incorrectly. Very true, +-200 mins at 6'19 is not as important as strategic/timing factors such as the possibility to block hatch or timing of lings/queens. A 15 seconds blocked hatch ends without doubt behind a undistorted 12 hatch .. if you are forced to drone fight because of late pool, say good bye to your eco build .. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 13 2010 15:39 Blisse wrote: Just wondering if any of the data accounts for the scouting drone? Because it's a pretty huge factor. Especially since any early pools and hatches really miss that one drone. Okay, so there are a lot of people who want to know how scouting drones/gas/whatever else affect a particular build. How a build is affected by this is actually governed by a simple statistic, how many drones do you have at the time of the variation? All these things are merly interruptions in a build, and the size of the interruption is simply dependent on how quickly you can gather the resources to put said interruption into place. So a build that has less drones early on is going to suffer more from one these interruptions than other builds. I am actually hoping to get some plots of some of the builds drone counts for the first 2-3 minutes up at some late date. This will help determine which builds will be affected more by adding in some sort of diversion at different times. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 13 2010 16:09 TanukTanukTuk wrote: I just wanted to point out that the conclusions I think are somewhat misleading. While it's clear that the graphs show that the bars looks significantly higher for some builds over others, I'd like to put some of the results into perspective: "Best" econ build: 5300 minerals @6:19 "Worst" econ build: 5150 minerals @6:19. So let's put that into perspective. A drone mines about 2/3 minerals per second. Over 60 seconds that's about 40 minerals. So do the best econ build, pull a drone off a close mineral patch for 4 minutes. That's what we're saying the difference is between 11pool and 13pool 15hatch so to say it's "the best" is objectively true but somewhat misleading in that the margin by which it's winning seems pretty small. Also for the larvae, as far as I can see the difference between the best and worst is 4 larvae...so I mean drop a creep tumor and now you're back at the "worst" build. By no means am I trying to say what the OP said is wrong, just trying to make sure nobody interprets the results incorrectly. I understand what you're saying, and I'm not actually trying to claim that the differences between any of the builds are larger than those differences you get from other choices you make in the game, which are numerous (while this is only one choice). I do however think you guys are talking about it slightly wrong. Yes, your economy is affected by many factors, but if you look at 1000 +- 400 vs. 800 +- 400, the first build is still 200 minerals ahead on it's best day and 200 minerals ahead on it's worst day. While choosing an opening is only one choice out of tons of decisions that affect your game, and this decision is not likely to be a game breaker for most people, I am simply providing information to inform your decision. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
jacobman: I don't know man. I didn't do an extractor trick on that test, so perhaps that's why. The real point is that the 14/13 is much more economical and gets the pool practically at the same time. I'm not going to be looking at anything else involving the 12H/11P. Sorry. As for the 13H/12P, I will probably look at later. well, if you did not do the extractor trick, you built ovie before hatch which completely changes the whole build. No wonder you find the pool late and economy is screwed in your test (early pool = early queen = earlier spawn larvae, early hatch = earlier larvae). The point is that extremely early hatch enables you to catch up the initial drone delay, and 12 hatch before ovie is unblockable .. If you play 9 ovie 12 hatch, you get 11+12 drone later (missing minerals), you spent 100 for the ovie (missing minerals for hatch, delays hatch) .. hope this isn't your general attitude in testing haha | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 02:05 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: well, if you did not do the extractor trick, you built ovie before hatch which completely changes the whole build. No wonder you find the pool late and economy is screwed in your test (early pool = early queen = earlier spawn larvae, early hatch = earlier larvae). The point is that extremely early hatch enables you to catch up the initial drone delay, and 12 hatch before ovie is unblockable .. If you play 9 ovie 12 hatch, you get 11+12 drone later (missing minerals), you spent 100 for the ovie (missing minerals for hatch, delays hatch) .. hope this isn't your general attitude in testing haha I find the pool and economy to be as I said because I had watched your replay too. It was over 200 minerals behind the 11P/18H and over 300 minerals behind most hatch first builds. I'm comparing this to older tests I had done on builds by hand too, not the AI. Also, your pool finished at 3:25 while the 14H/13P finished at 3:27, which like I said, was essentially equal. Your hatch started around 1:44, which is pretty good, but I actually decided to test the timings for 9 pylon scout today, and the scout will reach your expansion around 1:30 on most maps. There are only a few maps where a 12 hatch will make a difference, and in that case I do not suggest the build you posted. I tried a 12H/14P build. I will post the results later, but ended with 5212 minerals. Your build was already over 200 minerals behind by the 6:00 mark. This is for a trade off of 5 seconds in hatch time and early game larva, which since you're hatching so early are likely to be important for fending off early aggression. From what I remember that 5 seconds does not make a difference on any of the maps either. I could have forgotten one, but all the maps I remember had a 9 pylon scout of ~1:30 or ~1:55. EDIT: if anyone wants to document the scouting times of T and P that would be really useful in determining how important reductions in hatch times are. I simply tested it a few times this morning, but I did not write down any of the information. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
How do you get the economy data? I tried sc2gears, however it seems to have severe bugs. E.g. it displays for 2Xtractor12Hatch11pool a minerals spent of 4600, and for 11hatch11pool a value of ~5075. However in both replays exactly the same amount of drones, queens and ovies is built, they both have been terminated at 6:20. So how could this be ? hm .. anyway i am currently testing 11 h 11 pool (with extractor trick but ovie before hatch), which gets very early hatch too and seems to perform slightly better. My results (Xel Naga, plyed slowest for accuracy). Minor delays/errors easily make up +-150 mins in the end. all replays drone until 52/52 and then wait until 6'20 (however the replays happen to end at 6'17 somehow). All build create a double queen ASAP Pool Timings: 2X12h11p => pool set at 2:20 11pool11h => pool set at 2:23 14h15p => pool set at 2:39 Hatch Timings: 2X12h11p => hatch set at 1:43 (1:41 should be possible, made some mistakes) 11pool11h => hatch set at 1:48 (not much room to get this faster, screwed an ovie timing once) 14h15p => hatch set at 2:06 Minerals at 6'20: 2X12h11p ends with an excess of 678 minerals (replayed it with correct drone dispatch) 11h11p ends with an excess of 684 minerals 14h15p ends with an excess of 984 minerals BUT 14h15p is behind in drones (larvae capped), it might get overtaken later on 14h15p = you wait for larvae most of the time 11h11p = you wait for minerals sometimes ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173609.jpg) [actually below is 11 h 11 p] ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173610.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173612.jpg) Builds: 11h11p 10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43 10/10 CancelExtractor @00'53 11/10 BuildOvie @01'05 11/18 BuildHatch @01'43 11/18 BuildPool @02'17 16/18 BuildOvie @03'24 16/18 BuildQueen @03'25 18/20 BuildQueen @03'44 20/20 BuildOvie @03'45 26/36 BuildOvie @04'29 34/36 BuildOvie @04'55 2X12h11p 10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43 9/10 BuildExtractor @00'48 10/10 CancelExtractor @01'07 11/10 CancelExtractor @01'08 12/10 BuildHatch @01'40 11/10 BuildOvie @01'52 11/18 BuildPool @02'18 16/18 BuildOvie @03'24 16/18 BuildQueen @03'25 18/20 BuildQueen @03'41 20/20 BuildOvie @03'45 26/36 BuildOvie @04'26 34/44 BuildOvie @04'56 14h15p Submitted by Fenam, modified by jdseemoreglass 9 Overlord 14 Hatch 15 Pool 17 Overlord 17 Rally main to expo 19 Queen 21 Queen 26 Overlord 30 Overlord 30 Overlord 42 Rally main to main 43 Overlord 54 Overlord would be interested in replays + data of 13 hatch stuff .. playing in slowest starts boring me ;-) | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
I really appreciate all the people putting work into this, it is very good info. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:26 telfire wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I am but a humble n00b. But if the idea is to find the most economic build shouldn't builds like 15h or later be tested? It seems to me it would be most economic if you kept constant drone production, afaik all of these builds "cut" drones (not that they lose larvae but they are built a bit later). I could be totally wrong though. Definitely not the guy to do the tests I really appreciate all the people putting work into this, it is very good info.Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I started this too. I did test a 16 hatch build and a 15 hatch build. Neither of those outdid the 14/15 or 13/15 though. The results were on the main page. The 15 Hatch 14 Pool did not do bad though. I might try testing the 15/16. It's really time consuming to flesh out builds and test them though. It's great when people give me builds to test. Also, when you start reaching builds in the 16 range, your pool gets out so extremely late that I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't hold off 2 gate pressure ever. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
The impact of the queen alone is the reason that 11p18h can even compete at all with any of these other builds. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: + Show Spoiler + @jacobman How do you get the economy data? I tried sc2gears, however it seems to have severe bugs. E.g. it displays for 2Xtractor12Hatch11pool a minerals spent of 4600, and for 11hatch11pool a value of ~5075. However in both replays exactly the same amount of drones, queens and ovies is built, they both have been terminated at 6:20. So how could this be ? hm .. anyway i am currently testing 11 h 11 pool (with extractor trick but ovie before hatch), which gets very early hatch too and seems to perform slightly better. My results (Xel Naga, plyed slowest for accuracy). Minor delays/errors easily make up +-150 mins in the end. all replays drone until 52/52 and then wait until 6'20 (however the replays happen to end at 6'17 somehow). All build create a double queen ASAP Pool Timings: 2X12h11p => pool set at 2:20 11pool11h => pool set at 2:23 14h15p => pool set at 2:39 Hatch Timings: 2X12h11p => hatch set at 1:43 (1:41 should be possible, made some mistakes) 11pool11h => hatch set at 1:48 (not much room to get this faster, screwed an ovie timing once) 14h15p => hatch set at 2:06 Minerals at 6'20: 2X12h11p ends with an excess of 678 minerals (replayed it with correct drone dispatch) 11h11p ends with an excess of 684 minerals 14h15p ends with an excess of 984 minerals BUT 14h15p is behind in drones (larvae capped), it might get overtaken later on 14h15p = you wait for larvae most of the time 11h11p = you wait for minerals sometimes Builds: 11h11p 10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43 10/10 CancelExtractor @00'53 11/10 BuildOvie @01'05 11/18 BuildHatch @01'43 11/18 BuildPool @02'17 16/18 BuildOvie @03'24 16/18 BuildQueen @03'25 18/20 BuildQueen @03'44 20/20 BuildOvie @03'45 26/36 BuildOvie @04'29 34/36 BuildOvie @04'55 2X12h11p 10/10 BuildExtractor @00'43 9/10 BuildExtractor @00'48 10/10 CancelExtractor @01'07 11/10 CancelExtractor @01'08 12/10 BuildHatch @01'40 11/10 BuildOvie @01'52 11/18 BuildPool @02'18 16/18 BuildOvie @03'24 16/18 BuildQueen @03'25 18/20 BuildQueen @03'41 20/20 BuildOvie @03'45 26/36 BuildOvie @04'26 34/44 BuildOvie @04'56 14h15p Submitted by Fenam, modified by jdseemoreglass 9 Overlord 14 Hatch 15 Pool 17 Overlord 17 Rally main to expo 19 Queen 21 Queen 26 Overlord 30 Overlord 30 Overlord 42 Rally main to main 43 Overlord 54 Overlord would be interested in replays + data of 13 hatch stuff .. playing in slowest starts boring me ;-) Your data looks like it pretty much mirrors what I was saying before. As far as where I get the data from, you can find it right within the replay. In the menu on the left you can select to see minerals spent. If you combine this with the minerals that you currently have, that gives you a good number to compare builds with (NOTE: the minerals spent includes an extra 700 minerals for what you start with. Since all builds start with this, it does not affect comparisons). If you're really sure about the 11 hatch builds, give me a replay that ends with ~4600 minerals at the 6:00 mark (minerals spent + current minerals). That is about where the 11P18H and 13P/15H builds ended with human testing on slowest. Another thing you might try is testing the time that the 9 pylon scout will reach your base on different levels. If you can show me that the difference in the hatch timings between the 11 Hatch and the 12 Hatch I mentioned will preclude a hatch block by a 9 pylon scout on many levels, then this will make the 11 Hatch more interesting to look at. Note that the 12 hatch I mentioned puts the hatch up at 1:49 and ends with 5237 minerals (minerals spent + current minerals) at the 6:20 mark. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:26 telfire wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I am but a humble n00b. But if the idea is to find the most economic build shouldn't builds like 15h or later be tested? It seems to me it would be most economic if you kept constant drone production, afaik all of these builds "cut" drones (not that they lose larvae but they are built a bit later). I could be totally wrong though. Definitely not the guy to do the tests I really appreciate all the people putting work into this, it is very good info.Well the OP states its looking for the "most economic defendable build". The most economic build probably is a 3 hatch without pool .. however this would not be defendable in real games. Since there is lots of coverage of 13..16 hatch first, i just wanted to get the numbers of those "crazy" early hatch builds. The 11,12 hatch builds put the hatch earlier by cutting drones, i'd tested them just to find out, how much eco is lost. Advantages of 11,12 hatch: * early hatch can't be denied that easy (at least the probability is lower) * early hatch+pool gives you tons of larvae, which enables you to play more reactive, e.g. pump lings quickly in case. The 14h15p are low on larvae, so you need better scouting in order to build an army in time. This build is more noob friendly in my opinion. Harder to harass, earlier defense (queens, lings, larvae, creep). Disadvantages * you are about 300 minerals behind compared to 14h15p at 6'20 (thats an expansion or additional 2 queens) * in real world, you probably will get gas and scout, so the real world 14h15p will not be larvae capped and stockpile not that much money. Conclusion: 2extractor12hatch11pool is better one would assume. If the better timings are worth the eco sacrification depends on a player's skill, map and style. For me as a 50..60 APM player, i prefer a safe uninterrupted build with larvae excess and earlier lings (you still can switch to a pretty early ling rush). However if you're a pro and have the capability to fend off hatch block, bunker rush and all that stuff with drone micro, there is obviously no need to sacrifice your eco for earlier timings. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:56 jacobman wrote: If you're really sure about the 11 hatch builds, give me a replay that ends with ~4600 minerals at the 6:00 mark (minerals spent + current minerals). That is about where the 11P18H and 13P/15H builds ended with human testing on slowest. Another thing you might try is testing the time that the 9 pylon scout will reach your base on different levels. If you can show me that the difference in the hatch timings between the 11 Hatch and the 12 Hatch I mentioned will preclude a hatch block by a 9 pylon scout on many levels, then this will make the 11 Hatch more interesting to look at. Note that the 12 hatch I mentioned puts the hatch up at 1:49 and ends with 5237 minerals (minerals spent + current minerals) at the 6:20 mark. Err .. just scroll up for replays. Pls note, that the early hatch builds have more drones (because of earlier inject), i measured at 6'20, and droned to 52/52 with all tests. Because of the spawn larvae effects, the time of measurements is important (earlier queen gets 0.8 more spawn larvae cycle). I am at work, can't test ;-). However its better to think "in probabilities". The earlier the hatch, the lower the risk of beeing blocked. Even if a 9 probe might block in time, the following factors still reduce the probability of a successful block in case of early hatch: * bad luck in scouting order on 4 player maps * probe runs to your main first, while you already set your hatch at nat * opponent does 10 or 11 scout (which will reach you in time to block a 14 hatch, but not a 11 or xtractor-tricked 12 hatch) however it would be interesting if 8 or 10 seconds do matter .. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
10 pool, then drone Double Extractor trick Overlord Queen 17 Overlord 18 Hatch This actually seems less economical than 11overpool according to the build order calculator. + Show Spoiler + # Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds 10 Spawning Pool 10 Double Extractor Trick 12 Overlord 12 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae 17 Overlord 18 Hatchery, then transfer 2 drones 21 Queen 28 Overlord 36 Overlord The other one gones something like, 16 pool 17 hatch 16 overlord 16 queen 21 gas + Show Spoiler + 9 Overlord 16 Spawning Pool 17 Hatchery, then transfer 3 drones (19 seconds lost) 16 Overlord 16 Queen then constant Spawn Larvae 21 Spawn Larvae 21 Queen 23 Overlord 31 Overlord 44 Overlord | ||
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