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jacobman,
Thanks for all your hard work along with everyone else that has contributed. Naturally, when trying to find a best-fit solution, how the problem is originally framed is most important. What is our goal? I've heard economy, early rush defense, larvae, etc. The 13P/15H looks solid in numbers, however, when an opponent sees an 11 pool, this can have an immeasurable dynamic effect.
Zerg is a bend, don't break strategy. Therefore, the criterion that puts the Zerg in the best position to win the game is one that allows them to fend off a rush without taking a single drone off the line and where all units produced to fend off the attack die (including crawlers). This fact, when executed perfectly, is why it's best to expand immediately after an attack (economy permitting) since you maximize the time between which the last and next aggression will occur and you maximize your macro potential in a game, best enabling the Zerg to reach the late game and overwhelm the opponent.
I have not tried the feel of the 13P/15H yet, I will tonight. But, please note the psychological impact of the 11 pool which unfortunately, cannot be measured.
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Lol this thread is funny...
I've already shown with empirical evidence that 13P/15H is inferior economically to 11Pool, and the debate continues...
I know you guys are using some program or something for all your results... When you can post results than can beat this, then let me know.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Kxjl6.png)
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On December 11 2010 08:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:Lol this thread is funny... I've already shown with empirical evidence that 13P/15H is inferior economically to 11Pool, and the debate continues... I know you guys are using some program or something for all your results... When you can post results than can beat this, then let me know.
Weird.
Cause we've both shown that with superior (and consistent) testing, 13P/15H is superior economically to 11Pool, and generates more larvae as well.
These results are straight from the game, having the AI play.
Oh yeah, and I *totally* believe that you gave it your absolute best when recording the 13p15h game that you're using for comparison.
Sorry, but you crossed the line from somebody providing potentially useful ideas to complete trollbait a long time ago.
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On December 11 2010 09:52 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 08:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:Lol this thread is funny... I've already shown with empirical evidence that 13P/15H is inferior economically to 11Pool, and the debate continues... I know you guys are using some program or something for all your results... When you can post results than can beat this, then let me know. Weird. Cause we've both shown that with superior (and consistent) testing, 13P/15H is superior economically to 11Pool, and generates more larvae as well. These results are straight from the game, having the AI play. Oh yeah, and I *totally* believe that you gave it your absolute best when recording the 13p15h game that you're using for comparison. Sorry, but you crossed the line from somebody providing potentially useful ideas to complete trollbait a long time ago.
I must say i totally agree here. I was really enthousiast when i saw the first thread, got disgusted when it became something ego-related and lost any neutrality. This thread is far more objective imho.
My 2 cents.
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In fact, just cause you seem to like pretty pictures so much, and that a graph showing one build is superior is 100% incontrovertible:
Resource graph comparing 14h15p, 14h14p, 13p15h, and 11p18h, using the AI to execute the build order in a way that is completely consistent and repeatable, and recording data every 10 seconds.
![[image loading]](http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9297/resourcegraph.th.png)
See that blue line below all the others? Yeah, that's you.
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I do 11 pool and 18 hatch. Works wonders. You get the pool up fast, just incase they do an all in rush your covered. Also sets you up very strong economically. Only drawback is that when you go to 16 and get your queen your 18/18 which is the point where u throw down your hatch. Between this time you cant produce many fighters just incase a rush comes in at that time. but I find this build great either way.
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On December 11 2010 10:18 Chinesewonder wrote:
I do 11 pool and 18 hatch. Works wonders. You get the pool up fast, just incase they do an all in rush your covered. Also sets you up very strong economically. Only drawback is that when you go to 16 and get your queen your 18/18 which is the point where u throw down your hatch. Between this time you cant produce many fighters just incase a rush comes in at that time. but I find this build great either way.
Take this back to the other thread please. We're not debating the merits of one build vs another here, only comparing potential economy. Nobody here is trying to argue that 11pool can't be a solid build. The psychological implications alone can be huge imo.
But since you posted here: 13pool gets the pool up almost as fast, gets the hatch up faster, and also appears to set you up even more strongly economically, both resource and larvae-wise.
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I originally only read the OP and thought 'meh' just another Zerg BO circle-jerk.
After reading the last page I decided to read the entire thread though and it's just amazing what can happen if 2 guys with somewhat different opinions get together and do something productive without all the ego bs that can be found in other threads.
This is the only thread that deserves attention and the incredible amount of rationality and work the two main-poster Skrag and jacobman have put into it put it above all other threads created in the SC2 section in the past month alone. A big thank you from me 
I've watched the 11 18, 13 15 and 14h 15 replays and they all seem to be executed perfectly! Really nice work.
also
See that blue line below all the others? Yeah, that's you.
O SNAP hahahaha
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Huh? You've watched the replays? We don't have those. Unless Jacob gave you the map.
Or, rather, we do have them, but you'd also have to have the custom map containing the AI.
But if you could see a replay of my trigger-based AI, you'd see that it executes as damn near perfectly as possible, and it does so consistently, every single game.
I haven't added other pool-first builds to my AI yet, but based on jacob's results, I'd guess that mine will also show that 14p and 15p are both superior *economically* to the 11pool, with smaller differences than the 13p.
That's not to say that I think the 11pool is a piece of junk. I think the fact that it's even viable is absolutely incredible, and even if I don't use it every game, it's something I will definitely use occasionally.
As soon as I get a few more build orders added, and try to stick with some of the same consistencies that jacob has (only building up to 48 drones, which is still actually way too many for xelnaga, the absolute maximum number of drones that can be effectively mining on the main is 20, not 24), I'll host the map somewhere so you can check the results yourselves.
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On December 11 2010 10:54 Skrag wrote:Huh? You've watched the replays? We don't have those. Unless Jacob gave you the map. Or, rather, we do have them, but you'd also have to have the custom map containing the AI. But if you could see a replay of my trigger-based AI, you'd see that it executes as damn near perfectly as possible, and it does so consistently, every single game. I haven't added other pool-first builds to my AI yet, but based on jacob's results, I'd guess that mine will also show that 14p and 15p are both superior *economically* to the 11pool, with smaller differences than the 13p. That's not to say that I think the 11pool is a piece of junk. I think the fact that it's even viable is absolutely incredible, and even if I don't use it every game, it's something I will definitely use occasionally. As soon as I get a few more build orders added, and try to stick with some of the same consistencies that jacob has (only building up to 48 drones, which is still actually way too many for xelnaga, the absolute maximum number of drones that can be effectively mining on the main is 20, not 24), I'll host the map somewhere so you can check the results yourselves.
My SC2 automatically downloaded the maps needed for the replays provided in the OP.
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Ohh! I didn't actually see that he had added replays.
Jacob, how did he automatically download the map? lol
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Skrag, what effect does delaying the hatch have in the 13+ pool first builds?
I don't see a reason to pool first vs Terran at all, but against Protoss an 11 pool can be nice at shutting down cheese or forge expands, especially on small maps. The sacrifice is economy, but given that a late pool leads to a pylon at the expansion, I'm wondering how badly a 13 pool 15(or whatever it turns out to be) hatch is affected by having to remove a pylon at the expansion. By contrast an 11 pool can usually get lings out in time to remove the pylon a lot sooner.
I've also played a few games with the 11 pool, and sadly I don't even think it's early enough to stop a cannon wall in. The timings just don't seem to work out unless you get super early lings - ruining any hope of keeping up with a 13 pool.
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You didn't list 15 hatch, 14 pool? That's my favourite opening and I use it almost exclusively in each match up, just make sure to send out a scout as you send your drone to expo. I've found it can hold off pretty much any cheese imo. Except for steppes. But that's thumbed down.
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On December 11 2010 12:07 Rb6v King wrote:
You didn't list 15 hatch, 14 pool? That's my favourite opening and I use it almost exclusively in each match up, just make sure to send out a scout as you send your drone to expo. I've found it can hold off pretty much any cheese imo. Except for steppes. But that's thumbed down.
The other thread showed that 14 hatch 15pool was superior economically to everything else, but given the obvious testing flaws, it's probably worth testing 15 hatch. If I have some time this weekend, I plan on adding the whole range of builds, but since it turned out that specific drone micro was necessary to make the testing completely consistent, and that drone micro is *incredibly* difficult and time-consuming to get right (requiring lots of trial and error and restarting as the drone counts get higher), don't hold your breath please. You might turn blue or die or something.
The fact that an 11overpool can even compete at all with the more economic builds at all would indicate that the queen timing is very important, so it wouldn't surprise me that much if 14h15p was in fact economically superior to 15h14p
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I think the impact drone micro has had on this discussion is almost more interesting than the build orders themselves. Skrag have you noticed any patterns that can be employed by a human with less than than the 4000 APM your AI has to help improve improve the mining in the early game. I see many top players trading a small amount of mining time early to pair up workers on close patches asap, and I've seen other replays simply preferring to get a worker on each patch quickly without worrying about which patches are close.
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On December 11 2010 11:23 Skrag wrote:
Ohh! I didn't actually see that he had added replays.
Jacob, how did he automatically download the map? lol
Oh, I guess SCII does it automatically. The maps are loaded online, so I'm sure it finds them before the replay.
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On December 11 2010 10:21 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 10:18 Chinesewonder wrote:
I do 11 pool and 18 hatch. Works wonders. You get the pool up fast, just incase they do an all in rush your covered. Also sets you up very strong economically. Only drawback is that when you go to 16 and get your queen your 18/18 which is the point where u throw down your hatch. Between this time you cant produce many fighters just incase a rush comes in at that time. but I find this build great either way. Take this back to the other thread please. We're not debating the merits of one build vs another here, only comparing potential economy. Nobody here is trying to argue that 11pool can't be a solid build. The psychological implications alone can be huge imo. But since you posted here: 13pool gets the pool up almost as fast, gets the hatch up faster, and also appears to set you up even more strongly economically, both resource and larvae-wise.
Okay, even though we really don't need this (I provided replays and a link to the 11 Pool thread for people to make their own decision), this thread isn't just for comparing potential economy. I do hope people can post some ladder replays of builds they like eventually so that we can get an idea of the problems and bonuses of each build. 11 pool is the only one I don't care about because it's already well documented with replays, so new ones are not needed.
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On December 11 2010 10:54 Skrag wrote:Huh? You've watched the replays? We don't have those. Unless Jacob gave you the map. Or, rather, we do have them, but you'd also have to have the custom map containing the AI. But if you could see a replay of my trigger-based AI, you'd see that it executes as damn near perfectly as possible, and it does so consistently, every single game. I haven't added other pool-first builds to my AI yet, but based on jacob's results, I'd guess that mine will also show that 14p and 15p are both superior *economically* to the 11pool, with smaller differences than the 13p. That's not to say that I think the 11pool is a piece of junk. I think the fact that it's even viable is absolutely incredible, and even if I don't use it every game, it's something I will definitely use occasionally. As soon as I get a few more build orders added, and try to stick with some of the same consistencies that jacob has (only building up to 48 drones, which is still actually way too many for xelnaga, the absolute maximum number of drones that can be effectively mining on the main is 20, not 24), I'll host the map somewhere so you can check the results yourselves.
I'm pretty sure that 24 drones can actually mine effectively on 8 patches. Each patch can support 3 drones as far as I know. The issue is that it takes them a really long time to reach equilibrium.
I never actually tested this though. It's possible some patches are close enough that they can't support 3 drones? It's also possible that the line doesn't reach equilibrium before it's mined out. I don't really know, but I've always thought that 24 drones can mine on a line.
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On December 11 2010 12:07 Rb6v King wrote:
You didn't list 15 hatch, 14 pool? That's my favourite opening and I use it almost exclusively in each match up, just make sure to send out a scout as you send your drone to expo. I've found it can hold off pretty much any cheese imo. Except for steppes. But that's thumbed down.
Do you know the build order? I would really love to test it, but it's quite tedious getting good ovie timings to 52 supply.
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On December 11 2010 12:53 jacobman wrote:
I'm pretty sure that 24 drones can actually mine effectively on 8 patches. Each patch can support 3 drones as far as I know. The issue is that it takes them a really long time to reach equilibrium.
I never actually tested this though. It's possible some patches are close enough that they can't support 3 drones? It's also possible that the line doesn't reach equilibrium before it's mined out. I don't really know, but I've always thought that 24 drones can mine on a line.
I'm absolutely positive they can't, and did *extensive* testing during the beta on it.
Mineral patches that are "close" to the hatchery can only be mined by 2 workers at a time. Patches that are further away can be mined by 3. If you ever see any workers bouncing around from patch to patch, those workers are not contributing to your economy at all.
Xel'Naga has 4 close patches, where most maps only have 2, so the maximum number of workers in the mains is 20. (4 patches that can support 2 workers, 4 that can support 3)
In that base, 24 workers will mine at almost exactly the same rate as 20. I didn't test this on XelNaga specifically (because it didn't actually exist at the time), I tested on Lost Temple, which has two "close" patches in the main, and 30 workers mined at almost the exact same rate as 22. There is a *very* small improvement, because the timing on the close patches is not 100% perfect, and there's a very small gap that can be improved upon if there are enough extra workers bouncing around, but the benefit is really really really small, and definitely not worth the extra worker.
Also, even though the base *can* support 20 miners, the last worker or two that the patches can support will often take so long to settle in that they're not worth building unless you're intentionally oversaturating to expand, and even then, it's going to be better to have them distance mine at the expansion than to interfere with the routines at the main.
I haven't figured out which patches on the expansions are too close to support 3 workers, so I don't know what the max number of drones at the expansion is, but more than 20 at the main is definitely too many.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img805.imageshack.us/i/resourcegraph.png/)
