Pushing The Limits of Zerg Economy Builds - Page 6

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 02:38 GMT

#101

On December 10 2010 07:22 Skrag wrote:
Some results, after optimizing drone micro as much as possible for all the drones that end up at the main hatchery. (expansion drones were all just rallied to a center patch)
The numbers in these reports are minerals collected, vespene collected, supply used, supply available, completed drone counts, drone count including partial drones in progress, larvae count, and inject progress seconds (so 79 would mean two injects are almost done, 40 could mean one just started and one almost done, or two midway).

11 OverPool
+ Show Spoiler +

0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 10 10 8 9.17 1 0
0:50 report: 230 0 11 10 9 10.06 1 0
1:00 report: 300 0 11 10 10 10.70 2 0
1:10 report: 375 0 11 10 11 11.00 1 0
1:20 report: 450 0 11 10 11 11.00 2 0
1:30 report: 530 0 10 18 10 10.00 3 0
1:40 report: 605 0 11 18 10 10.33 2 0
1:50 report: 670 0 13 18 10 11.60 1 0
2:00 report: 755 0 14 18 12 13.08 0 0
2:10 report: 835 0 15 18 13 14.26 0 0
2:20 report: 925 0 16 18 14 14.92 0 0
2:30 report: 1035 0 16 18 15 15.60 0 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 18 18 16 16.00 1 0
2:50 report: 1245 0 18 18 16 16.00 2 0
3:00 report: 1345 0 17 18 15 15.00 2 0
3:10 report: 1455 0 18 18 15 15.21 1 0
3:20 report: 1555 0 18 18 15 15.80 2 0
3:30 report: 1665 0 20 26 16 16.47 0 6.625
3:40 report: 1770 0 22 26 16 17.65 0 16.625
3:50 report: 1885 0 23 26 18 18.04 0 26.625
4:00 report: 2000 0 23 26 18 18.63 0 36.625
4:10 report: 2125 0 27 34 19 19.98 0 2.625
4:20 report: 2240 0 27 34 19 22.33 0 12.625
4:30 report: 2370 0 28 34 23 23.55 0 22.625
4:40 report: 2490 0 30 36 24 24.69 0 32.625
4:50 report: 2650 0 32 36 25 25.89 2 2.1875
5:00 report: 2790 0 35 36 26 28.78 0 20.375
5:10 report: 2975 0 36 36 30 31.43 0 40.375
5:20 report: 3135 0 37 44 32 32.17 0 60.375
5:30 report: 3325 0 39 44 32 33.18 3 39.375
5:40 report: 3545 0 48 52 34 38.20 0 14.9375
5:50 report: 3740 0 49 52 39 43.47 0 34.9375
6:00 report: 3975 0 50 52 44 44.99 0 54.9375

Started Spawning Pool at 87.6875
Finished Spawning Pool at 152.625
Started Hatchery at 172.063
Finished Hatchery at 272.063

13P15H
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0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 13 18 13 13.00 1 0
1:50 report: 675 0 13 18 12 12.25 1 0
2:00 report: 765 0 14 18 12 13.32 1 0
2:10 report: 850 0 15 18 14 14.58 0 0
2:20 report: 950 0 15 18 15 15.00 1 0
2:30 report: 1050 0 15 18 15 15.00 2 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:50 report: 1250 0 17 18 14 14.04 2 0
3:00 report: 1355 0 17 18 14 14.63 1 0
3:10 report: 1450 0 18 18 15 15.35 1 0
3:20 report: 1565 0 18 18 15 15.93 2 0
3:30 report: 1670 0 20 26 16 16.60 0 0
3:40 report: 1785 0 23 26 16 18.10 0 3.5625
3:50 report: 1900 0 23 26 18 18.91 0 13.5625
4:00 report: 2020 0 23 26 19 19.00 0 23.5625
4:10 report: 2135 0 24 26 19 19.32 0 33.5625
4:20 report: 2255 0 29 36 19 20.73 0 0
4:30 report: 2375 0 31 36 21 24.42 0 12.375
4:40 report: 2515 0 31 36 26 26.84 0 32.375
4:50 report: 2645 0 32 36 27 27.54 0 52.375
5:00 report: 2815 0 34 36 28 28.78 0 72.375
5:10 report: 2995 0 42 44 29 31.81 0 4.625
5:20 report: 3180 0 43 44 32 37.14 0 22.9375
5:30 report: 3385 0 44 44 39 39.41 1 42.9375
5:40 report: 3620 0 46 52 39 40.47 0 62.9375
5:50 report: 3850 0 51 52 40 42.66 0 38.5
6:00 report: 4095 0 52 52 43 46.29 5 14.5

Started Spawning Pool at 101.25
Started Hatchery at 150.625
Finished Spawning Pool at 166.188
Finished Hatchery at 250.625

14H15P
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0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 15 18 13 13.60 0 0
2:20 report: 960 0 15 18 14 14.72 1 0
2:30 report: 1055 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:40 report: 1155 0 16 18 14 14.47 0 0
2:50 report: 1260 0 17 18 14 15.94 0 0
3:00 report: 1370 0 17 18 16 16.88 1 0
3:10 report: 1475 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1600 0 18 18 17 17.25 0 0
3:30 report: 1720 0 18 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1830 0 24 28 18 18.64 0 0
3:50 report: 1950 0 25 28 19 19.92 0 0
4:00 report: 2080 0 26 28 20 21.26 1 0
4:10 report: 2215 0 27 28 22 22.12 0 0
4:20 report: 2355 0 28 28 22 23.00 0 0
4:30 report: 2505 0 29 36 23 24.13 1 5.4375
4:40 report: 2670 0 30 36 24 25.36 0 25.4375
4:50 report: 2825 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 45.4375
5:00 report: 2995 0 31 36 26 26.40 1 65.4375
5:10 report: 3170 0 37 44 26 28.14 4 0
5:20 report: 3365 0 42 52 28 33.74 0 16
5:30 report: 3525 0 43 52 37 38.08 0 36
5:40 report: 3740 0 44 52 38 38.93 0 56
5:50 report: 3955 0 45 52 39 39.80 0 76
6:00 report: 4200 0 54 60 40 43.68 0 7.5625

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 149.313
Finished Spawning Pool at 214.313
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

14H14P
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0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 14 18 13 13.47 1 0
2:20 report: 960 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:30 report: 1050 0 14 18 13 13.04 2 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 15 18 13 13.98 1 0
2:50 report: 1240 0 17 18 14 15.75 0 0
3:00 report: 1350 0 17 18 16 16.83 1 0
3:10 report: 1460 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1575 0 18 18 17 17.24 0 0
3:30 report: 1700 0 20 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1810 0 24 28 18 18.62 0 0
3:50 report: 1930 0 25 28 19 19.95 0 0
4:00 report: 2055 0 26 28 20 21.27 1 0
4:10 report: 2205 0 27 28 21 22.07 0 0
4:20 report: 2330 0 28 28 22 22.94 0 1
4:30 report: 2490 0 29 36 23 24.12 1 12
4:40 report: 2650 0 30 36 24 25.42 0 32
4:50 report: 2805 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 52
5:00 report: 2975 0 31 36 26 26.43 3 31
5:10 report: 3150 0 36 44 27 29.11 3 6.5625
5:20 report: 3340 0 41 52 31 33.91 0 22.5625
5:30 report: 3510 0 42 52 36 37.07 0 42.5625
5:40 report: 3730 0 43 52 37 38.35 1 62.5625
5:50 report: 3955 0 48 52 39 40.13 0 38.125
6:00 report: 4175 0 52 52 39 44.00 1 14.125

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 143.938
Finished Spawning Pool at 208.875
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

Conclusions:

11P vs 13P: It looks to me like 13pool is slightly better off at pretty much every point in both resources and partial drone count, as well as being ahead on coompleted drones a good percentage of the time.

14H15P vs 14H14P: I've had a suspicion that you could pool on 14 after a 14 hatch, only sacrifice a small amount of economy, and gain a larva advantage. The numbers appear to bear that idea out, but the larva advantage of 14pool seems really small, and doesn't seem to kick in until 5 minutes or so.

Adding the drone micro seems to have made the results *much* more consistent, by the way.

Next stop will be adding some more typical choices, like 14p16h, which seems a lot more common than 13p15h.

hey Skrag, I'm going to add your results to the main post. You seem to have come to the same general conclusion as me.

By the way, what trigger did you use to print out the total minerals mined?

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 03:44 GMT

#102

On December 10 2010 11:38 jacobman wrote:

By the way, what trigger did you use to print out the total minerals mined?

Can't tell you how to do it in script, but there's a player property called Minerals Collected or something like that, as well as one for gas.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 03:58 GMT

#103

On December 10 2010 12:44 Skrag wrote:

Show nested quote +

Can't tell you how to do it in script, but there's a player property called Minerals Collected or something like that, as well as one for gas.

Script and triggers are actually the same thing. The things you use in triggers are just script functions layed out with selection boxes and such. Actually to figure out the syntax for some things I occasionally set up a script and then made a "debug" script to run after it. It was just a scrip with an error in it, and the program would give me an error, which had the trigger written in galaxy script before it. A lot of script functions don't have triggers made for them though.

Dragar

United Kingdom971 Posts

December 10 2010 04:02 GMT

#104

Plots for these readouts would be awesome. Impressive work guys. :D

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 12:30 GMT

#105

13P15H
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14H15P
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0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 15 18 13 13.60 0 0
2:20 report: 960 0 15 18 14 14.72 1 0
2:30 report: 1055 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:40 report: 1155 0 16 18 14 14.47 0 0
2:50 report: 1260 0 17 18 14 15.94 0 0
3:00 report: 1370 0 17 18 16 16.88 1 0
3:10 report: 1475 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1600 0 18 18 17 17.25 0 0
3:30 report: 1720 0 18 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1830 0 24 28 18 18.64 0 0
3:50 report: 1950 0 25 28 19 19.92 0 0
4:00 report: 2080 0 26 28 20 21.26 1 0
4:10 report: 2215 0 27 28 22 22.12 0 0
4:20 report: 2355 0 28 28 22 23.00 0 0
4:30 report: 2505 0 29 36 23 24.13 1 5.4375
4:40 report: 2670 0 30 36 24 25.36 0 25.4375
4:50 report: 2825 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 45.4375
5:00 report: 2995 0 31 36 26 26.40 1 65.4375
5:10 report: 3170 0 37 44 26 28.14 4 0
5:20 report: 3365 0 42 52 28 33.74 0 16
5:30 report: 3525 0 43 52 37 38.08 0 36
5:40 report: 3740 0 44 52 38 38.93 0 56
5:50 report: 3955 0 45 52 39 39.80 0 76
6:00 report: 4200 0 54 60 40 43.68 0 7.5625

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 149.313
Finished Spawning Pool at 214.313
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

14H14P
+ Show Spoiler +

0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 14 18 13 13.47 1 0
2:20 report: 960 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:30 report: 1050 0 14 18 13 13.04 2 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 15 18 13 13.98 1 0
2:50 report: 1240 0 17 18 14 15.75 0 0
3:00 report: 1350 0 17 18 16 16.83 1 0
3:10 report: 1460 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1575 0 18 18 17 17.24 0 0
3:30 report: 1700 0 20 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1810 0 24 28 18 18.62 0 0
3:50 report: 1930 0 25 28 19 19.95 0 0
4:00 report: 2055 0 26 28 20 21.27 1 0
4:10 report: 2205 0 27 28 21 22.07 0 0
4:20 report: 2330 0 28 28 22 22.94 0 1
4:30 report: 2490 0 29 36 23 24.12 1 12
4:40 report: 2650 0 30 36 24 25.42 0 32
4:50 report: 2805 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 52
5:00 report: 2975 0 31 36 26 26.43 3 31
5:10 report: 3150 0 36 44 27 29.11 3 6.5625
5:20 report: 3340 0 41 52 31 33.91 0 22.5625
5:30 report: 3510 0 42 52 36 37.07 0 42.5625
5:40 report: 3730 0 43 52 37 38.35 1 62.5625
5:50 report: 3955 0 48 52 39 40.13 0 38.125
6:00 report: 4175 0 52 52 39 44.00 1 14.125

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 143.938
Finished Spawning Pool at 208.875
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

If you don't mind me asking, what level did you run those on? The numbers seem a little bit low for Xel'Naga Caverns bottom left. Did you use a different level?

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 17:01 GMT

#106

It is XelNaga. The numbers seem low because the minerals are recorded slightly differently, using minerals collected, because that's what can be spit out during play by triggers.

When I used a replay to compare the 11P to my previous "best" using the same recording method that was being used previously (spent + current resources), it was ahead by quite a bit.

Obviously we can't exchange replays without the map, but if you want to give the 6:00 numbers for your recordings, and tell me exactly what method you're using to report resources (spent+current seems like the easiest by far to get out of a replay even though it includes 700 for the starting units), we can compare directly.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 18:03 GMT

#107

On December 11 2010 02:01 Skrag wrote:
It is XelNaga. The numbers seem low because the minerals are recorded slightly differently, using minerals collected, because that's what can be spit out during play by triggers.

When I used a replay to compare the 11P to my previous "best" using the same recording method (spent + current resources), it was ahead by quite a bit.

Obviously we can't exchange replays without the map, but if you want to give the 6:00 numbers for your recordings, and tell me exactly what method you're using to report resources (spent+current seems like the easiest by far to get out of a replay even though it includes 700 for the starting units), we can compare directly.

I think it's actually better if we don't try and compare our results directly since we don't know if our AI is exactly the same. What is useful though is seeing if trends are the same. For example is build A outperforming build B.

I was just curious why the numbers were so much lower. If you get any more data that you want me to post, let me know. When I get a few more builds tested I will try and get a graph with the top builds up and your data would be really convenient. As it stands right now, I don't think I have enough hatch first builds to really say much about which one is best.

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 18:10 GMT

#108

There are some discrepancies between our methods as well. For example, my 14h15p finishes both the hatch and pool faster than yours. I'm guessing this is purely based on the drone micro advantage.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 18:13 GMT

#109

On December 11 2010 03:10 Skrag wrote:
There are some discrepancies between our methods as well. For example, my 14h15p finishes both the hatch and pool faster than yours. I'm guessing this is purely based on the drone micro advantage.

That could be it. If it is, it's alright because the AI runs it the same way with all the builds. What times did you get for the 14H 15P? I'll double check my replays to make sure that everything is going alright and I'll check my numbers to make sure I didn't copy and paste the wrong numbers by accident.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

December 10 2010 18:14 GMT

#110

The reason why I prefer 12pool in every situation right now in both non-zvz MUs is that you get the pair of lings just before you'd place your hatch, so they have time to chase their worker out / kill their pylon and so on before you need to place the hatchery. 14-hatch is nice but I wouldn't use it as my standard ladder build, and 14pool 16hatch might be better in econ but is super vulnerable to hatch block. 11pool done the way the original OP stated doesn't get lings until later and if you cut some econ by getting the OV and lings out earlier, your econ advantage goes to waste, pretty much.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 18:24 GMT

#111

On December 11 2010 03:14 Shikyo wrote:
The reason why I prefer 12pool in every situation right now in both non-zvz MUs is that you get the pair of lings just before you'd place your hatch, so they have time to chase their worker out / kill their pylon and so on before you need to place the hatchery. 14-hatch is nice but I wouldn't use it as my standard ladder build, and 14pool 16hatch might be better in econ but is super vulnerable to hatch block. 11pool done the way the original OP stated doesn't get lings until later and if you cut some econ by getting the OV and lings out earlier, your econ advantage goes to waste, pretty much.

I'm assuming you place the 18 hatch? If you're going to go pool first I actually suggest 13 Pool 15 Hatch. It gets the hatch out earlier so that you can get creep to put a spine on.

Although if you're dead set on getting the lings out before the hatch, you could make the hatch later than 15. I don't know which 18 hatch build has the best economy. That's a good question for your purposes though.

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 18:50 GMT

#112

How are you recording larvae? I added larva counting to mine last night (using a very simple method: number of completed drones + drones in progress + total overlords + total hatcheries + pool + inject seconds/10), and I show 14h14p being slightly behind 14h15p at the 6 minute mark where you show it being 2 larvae ahead. Both of our tests show 13h15p being about 2 larvae ahead of everything else though. From my data, that advantage kicks in at about 4:20, taking the lead from 11pool, which is ahead from 3:40-4:20.

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 18:51 GMT

#113

On December 11 2010 03:13 jacobman wrote:

Show nested quote +

3:34 for pool, 3:37 for hatch. 6 seconds better on the pool, and 2 seconds on the hatch.

Skrag

United States643 Posts

December 10 2010 18:58 GMT

#114

From what I'm seeing so far, I'm really liking 13h15p more and more. It seems to be ahead of 11p economically, and has a pretty good larvae advantage over all the other builds.

I also have a lot more confidence in this testing method than anything else that's been done so far.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 19:00 GMT

#115

On December 11 2010 03:50 Skrag wrote:
How are you recording larvae? I added larva counting to mine last night (using a very simple method: number of completed drones + drones in progress + total overlords + total hatcheries + pool + inject seconds/10), and I show 14h14p being slightly behind 14h15p at the 6 minute mark where you show it being 2 larvae ahead. Both of our tests show 13h15p being about 2 larvae ahead of everything else though. From my data, that advantage kicks in at about 4:20, taking the lead from 11pool, which is ahead from 3:40-4:20.

I'm recording larva the same way as you. I'm actually looking at the 6:20 mark. I listed that somewhere in the post. It allows all the builds to get to full saturation. Anyways, the difference might be due to me doing multiple trials, and I only listed it as one larva ahead. Also, do you use the builds I posted?

My method is, number of overlords + number or drones + number of queens + number of units in progress + injectSeconds/10 - 7. I take away the seven to make up for the 6 drones and 1 overlord you start with. I include the queens to make up for the two drones you lose to the expansion and spawning pool.

Tell me if you're still getting the 14p 15h having more larva with multiple tests. If you do then I'll do some more trials to see if anything changes. Logically though, I would expect the 14/14 to have more larva anyways since its pool finishes earlier and it does so without wasting any larva.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 19:02 GMT

#116

On December 11 2010 03:51 Skrag wrote:

Show nested quote +

3:34 for pool, 3:37 for hatch. 6 seconds better on the pool, and 2 seconds on the hatch.

That's interesting. I'm definitely going to take a look at my replays for the 14/15 to make sure that there isn't a hang up with the spawning pool or hatchery. Otherwise it probably is due to the drone optimization you did in the beginning.

EDIT: So I looked at a replay and it showed 38 for the pool and 41 for the hatch. The drone didn't idle at all so the difference between yours and mine has to be just the mining optimization.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 19:05 GMT

#117

On December 11 2010 03:58 Skrag wrote:
From what I'm seeing so far, I'm really liking 13h15p more and more. It seems to be ahead of 11p economically, and has a pretty good larvae advantage over all the other builds.

I also have a lot more confidence in this testing method than anything else that's been done so far.

I'm assuming you meant 13 Pool 15 Hatch. I agree. I'm more confident in the AI results than anything that's been done yet. I've looked at quite a few pool first builds too, so the 13P 15H is definitely near the top of the pool first builds.

I wish more people would post build orders with ovie timings though

The analysis seems incomplete with so few builds tested.

Igaryu85

Germany195 Posts

December 10 2010 19:09 GMT

#118

First of all I have to say I find it confusing that there are like 4 or 5 threads about BO for us zerg, why not just continue the old ones?

Also something that isnt really relating to the whole BO thing but rather a general question.
I allways feel that when I have 2 bases fully saturated that its not enough to have only those hatches. I mean spending gas is of course ussually not a problem but getting rid of all the mins sometimes really gets hard. Do you fellow zerg actually put up extra hatches up often or not? I feel that even if I have like 5 bases it sometimes isnt enough to produce units...well 5 is actually really enough but really the number of hatches/expos has to be high for me to really use up all my mins all the time unless maybe building tons of ultras or the like.

Also isnt it relativ unimportant which BO gives you the theoretical highest eco? I often feel like getting a good eco is really no prob but having units early enough or plentyfull enough.
I know I am still making alot wrong with this but I have often an eco to pump troops en masse but then get stomped before I can get a second wave of units out and just because these waves come into battle seperatly I loose. If I'd get that second wave out I'd have enough to defend and a third wave would probably allready crush my opponents hard...

So I kinda think the optimizing to no end really is a bit unnessecary allthough I was happy to read about the 11 pool possibilty.

Earlier in the beta I actually did alot of ten pools but these kinda seem to lack the one drone to really profit from the queens larvae;).

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

December 10 2010 19:16 GMT

#119

^^ To be honest, I've started getting a lot less drones recently. You only need like 16 for all your minerals, and you can instantly saturate your next expo anyway so it doesn't matter as it does with P and T, but you'll have a much stronger army and won't really lose out in anything, unless you like getting many speedlings(vs T might be good). If you also overdrone you're going to also have a weaker lategame army. I will rather use my larger army to secure additional expansions and gases and have more gas-based units(And banelings are so much better than speedlings vs Terran anyway and vs P I never get speedlings past the early game).

And yeah its unimportant, I want a good build that gives me a guaranteed hatch in time and good econ, and 12pool feels perfect.

jacobman

217 Posts

December 10 2010 19:22 GMT

#120

On December 11 2010 04:09 Igaryu85 wrote:
First of all I have to say I find it confusing that there are like 4 or 5 threads about BO for us zerg, why not just continue the old ones?

Also something that isnt really relating to the whole BO thing but rather a general question.
I allways feel that when I have 2 bases fully saturated that its not enough to have only those hatches. I mean spending gas is of course ussually not a problem but getting rid of all the mins sometimes really gets hard. Do you fellow zerg actually put up extra hatches up often or not? I feel that even if I have like 5 bases it sometimes isnt enough to produce units...well 5 is actually really enough but really the number of hatches/expos has to be high for me to really use up all my mins all the time unless maybe building tons of ultras or the like.

Also isnt it relativ unimportant which BO gives you the theoretical highest eco? I often feel like getting a good eco is really no prob but having units early enough or plentyfull enough.
I know I am still making alot wrong with this but I have often an eco to pump troops en masse but then get stomped before I can get a second wave of units out and just because these waves come into battle seperatly I loose. If I'd get that second wave out I'd have enough to defend and a third wave would probably allready crush my opponents hard...

So I kinda think the optimizing to no end really is a bit unnessecary allthough I was happy to read about the 11 pool possibilty.

Earlier in the beta I actually did alot of ten pools but these kinda seem to lack the one drone to really profit from the queens larvae;).

It is confusing. I would have continued to post on the other thread, but it kind of died when the 11 pool 18 hatch build showed up. It never really got updated and the OP didn't use reliable methods anyways. Hence why I had to start a new thread.

If you're not too worried about econ then none of this really matters. In all honesty, unless you're pro, you can improve your game in much easier ways than all this research. However, if other people do it for you, I guess it's useful.

If you look though, so far the 13 Pool 15 Hatch has the most benefits out of the pool first builds.

As far as extra hatches go, I usually do build extra hatches with my main. I don't do it until later in the game though, after like my 3rd or 4th expansion. Here's some useful information though. The minerals from one mineral line can support 2 hatches and one queens worth of zergling/drone larva. It can also support 2 hatches worth of roaches (no queens). All other units will use your resources with only one hatch and a queen.

In short this means that if you're going heavy ling, you should throw up an extra hatch at each base when you get the extra minerals. This will allow you to produce to capacity.

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