EPTPvT Colossi or Templar - Page 2
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:38 sqrt wrote: No, believe me, you will not. Having 6 templars call dawn the thunder is scary. Especially considering how fast you can reinforce if you've gone templar route (the joy of warping in 10 templars...). You wouldn't have the econ to have that many temps and call in another 4-6 temps and another army at that point in the game. If you can then you might as well have temps and colo up. You're better off having both in the late game and the fact is that if you go temp first you are vulnerable to a lot of things you aren't vulnerable to if you go colo tech first. And you don't really gain anything by going temp first except charge, which isn't that useful because you won't have that many zealots yet if you are fast teching to get to temps so you don't get overrun by the MMM ball. Plus, as an earlier poster said, you don't see as many medivacs if you go colo because they are forced to make vikings instead. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
I used to do a lot of 1 gate FE builds, but with the emergence of the 2 thor push, this is becoming a huge issue. | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
With templars the mechanics are alot more forgiving. Since templars arent 300min200 gas investments that take a long time to make. If my templars get sniped / emped, just retreat while i warp in more. Since my army is more based around zealots/stalkers losing some HT's arent an instant GG. In fact i can sacrifice templars to kill workers, or feed back and its okay. Also late game you will have a few expos, 2 cannons and 2 templars can stall long enough for your army to arrive, or for some units to warp in before they wipe your probes / nexus. In fact with a few cannons and templars terrans dont even try to kill expos because they will likely lose their MM force. vs terran I rarely have a "killing" push. Every fight i storm, as they dance around and kite zealots. When most of my zealots die, i retreat while warping in more zealots /templars to replace whatever died, push again. Terran will storm dance / kite, as i feedback and unit trade zealots. This continues constantly once i get templars, just keep nibbling at terran so they dont reach a 200 ball, and keeps them busy defending so you dont have to worry about drops as much. ** the only problem with storm is mastering the transition into it. As long as you get to templar tech you are now ahead of terran and your tech advantage lets you skirmish more effectively. Until templar tech terran is more cost effective vs your zealot ball and you have to rely on sheer numbers to hold them off until templar tech. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:58 Reborn58 wrote: You wouldn't have the econ to have that many temps and call in another 4-6 temps and another army at that point in the game. If you can then you might as well have temps and colo up. You're better off having both in the late game and the fact is that if you go temp first you are vulnerable to a lot of things you aren't vulnerable to if you go colo tech first. And you don't really gain anything by going temp first except charge, which isn't that useful because you won't have that many zealots yet if you are fast teching to get to temps so you don't get overrun by the MMM ball. Plus, as an earlier poster said, you don't see as many medivacs if you go colo because they are forced to make vikings instead. What? Not have many zealots yet? What are you doing with your minerals? Council + charge + archives is 450 minerals and you have nothing other then pylon/worker production to do until the archives finishes. Make some zealots and cut back on your stalkers, unless you scouted banshee, it's very straightforward. Get +1 ground armor too, with guardian shields, marine damage gets hosed. The timing attack window difference between HT/collo only exists if you sit on 2 gate/robo forever. | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
I think you need to do 1 gate FE, to safely have the economic advantage / translating to macro advantage to hold terrans pushes back with pure gateway units while you templar tech. I suppose you could 1 base templar, then late expand while you templar drop to even the econ situation... But coming from behind is harder than start ahead by FE yourself. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:26 s4m222 wrote: Like yourself I always do the kcdc style 1 gate FE, into quick chargelots / then into templars / then throw in colossus late game. (keep on eye on barracks count and make sure your always ahead in warpgates) Certain games / maps i go colossus because of cliffs / like LT or if i feel that it might work better for some reason but 85% of the time i go chargelots. *edit i always get a robo and 1 observer to scout, then i basically never use it again until late game prism drops or adding in immortals if terran incorporates mech units) Replays of you defending vs MM ball without collosi and teching straight for storm, where T makes ghosts after seeing templar tech plox. I used to always storm rush off 2 bases, but I found that holding a straight up marine marauder ball that would always hit before I could get storms, HT and Charge (Which are basically the 3 things you need) is completely brutal to hold off as even if your gateway army value is higher than his barracks army value he will be able to completely crush you. Also, some terrans realize that they have a tier 1.5 unit that counters every protoss in the game | ||
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Comprissent
United States314 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:07 FenneK wrote: - Colossi are hard countered by Vikings God i hate when people claim something "hard" counters another thing... It's ALL about your micro. But on to the topic on hand, templar vs colossi is generally going to be the choice you'll make to deal with terran bio. Do you melt it with colossi or storm the shit out of it with templars? I don't think the question should boil down to high templar vs. colossi, but rather robo vs. templar tech. Robo is probably going to be your "safe" play, as it provides ways to combat a lot of one base plays that terran can throw at you (those mostly being ovserver to watch for cloaked banshee, and immortals to beat thors). On the other hand, twilight council opening gives you access to charge, blink, and high templar and DT tech. If you choose this path you will probably get wrecked by most terran timing pushes (whether its the thor+scv repair, cloaked banshee, or marine raven push) Getting to the actual units mentioned, the high templar is such gas intensive 3:1 gas to mineral ratio, that it's extremely difficult to use midgame, where gateway unit count is directly related to how long you survive. The key to getting to these units is staying alive until then. There is a reason templar are primarily used lategame, they require lots of gas, and this is best used when you have bases mined out of minerals, but you are still getting gas. Just think, the earlier you have templar, the less useful they are. You can get all the research done, and warp in a few on two base, then you're good for a few storms. But after that, you have to morph archons, or wait a LONG time for more energy to storm again. Late game with long battles is where any unit with energy shines, as they replenish and you use it again and again. (you may argue that this is a reason to get them out earlier, but think you will have much less gateway units to support them, and once your stalker/zealot count is dead you can kiss your templars goodbye) | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
These replays are from 1200-1900ish. (bought sc2 at release date, played for 1 month hit 1200, went on a trip for near 2 months, got back less then a month ago and up around 2000.) Delta Quad - FE vs early Marauder pressure Terrible map to FE, but this was earlier one when i just started adopting the build so i did it anyways. Early Harass works extremely well If my early harass ever works well - the entire game is a coast usually FE vs marine heavy pressure not sure if i won or lost this one. FE vs Marauder heavy Composition I love it when terran goes marauder heavy. vs 50/50 marine maruader mix because marines melt zealots much better than marauders Heres one where i get absolutely rolled. I scouted him staying on 1 base and alot of rax, but i didnt macro hard enough and was behind in army when he came out. When i scouted him on 1 base with alot of barracks i should have added more gateways and chronoed warpgates instead of continuing tech and build of 3 or was it 4 gates. -- But thanks to my improper response i absolutely got rolled. **PS is there a better site for replays sc2replayed seems a bit slow... | ||
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NeoSlicerZ
Ireland470 Posts
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
On December 03 2010 13:42 NeoSlicerZ wrote: HTs give you more flexibility and allow you to take a third quicker imo, colossi are a liability unless you're attacking with them I feel since like all robo units they're really slow. FE into chargelot/HT then tech back into colossi or carriers is incredibly strong. So you would basically skip detection and pray that he doesn't go banshee or ghost? Doesn't seem like a great build to me... | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
On December 03 2010 13:57 Reborn58 wrote: So you would basically skip detection and pray that he doesn't go banshee or ghost? Doesn't seem like a great build to me... When you do this particular FE(kcdc) you take a robo before going chargelots... or at least i do by default(for 1 observer to scout and against banshee). Then i basically never use robo again until late game, unless terran incorporates mech (minus the occasional observer) You have the econ to make a robo and still tech into twilight fairly quickly/smoothly. Robo is part of the 1 gate FE opener(made popular by kcdc the OP). 1 gate expand add gateways and robo ---> go whatever tech route you choose from here. | ||
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Fushin
France193 Posts
I usually open colossus since i need my robo for detection anyway, I will build up my number to 4-5 with range, then i usually add templars as i take my 3rd. Of course colossus as HT can be easily hard countered. But that's not so easy to counter both efficiently at the same time micro wise, and emp that goes off on the HT don't remove the shields of your zealots. Plus i've found HT extremely useful to stop drops, and harass. So, definately both, but open with colossus, they're more reliable early game, and their tech tree is critical early game anyway. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
1. It is the most gas heavy of all of the protoss tech paths. 100g council, 200g archives, 200g for charge which you will need to hold off till templar arrive, 200g for storm, 150 for amultet, and then 150 per templar. 2. Engaging a bio ball with just templar is not as good as you might think. Much like a terran with stim concussive marauders trying to kite chargelots, it works, but not completely. Good terrans can stim and dodge most of your storm damage. Then your chargelots will pursue them through the storm and get hit themselves. Also against a marauder heavy build, storm has less effect. Marauders will stim retreat and a couple of medivacs will outlast your templar. 3. There is a huge timing attack window that you open for your opponent by trying to go templar first. Because of all the previously mentioned upgrades plus waiting for energy plus having a decent amount of templar, you have a small contingency of forces until the templar arrive. 4.Once you run out of energy, you are a fish out of water. And your opponent will roll over you. colossi never stop being a threat, but some kiting and an emp will neutralize templar. Also, due to the nature of the units and of storm, you cannot chase a player down with templar like you can with colossi. On December 03 2010 10:38 sqrt wrote: No, believe me, you will not. Having 6 templars call dawn the thunder is scary. Especially considering how fast you can reinforce if you've gone templar route (the joy of warping in 10 templars...). Yes this is true, but you wont have 1500g lying around unless its very late in the game in which case you could use any tier 3 untis to beat MM. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
The problem with this is getting storm is a pretty big timing window, which we saw exploited in GSL. You're relying on gateway units + immortals to sit in your base and defend, which can let Terran take map control, expand, or simply try to break you when he has emp or medivacs. Because you're going robo anyways for obs Colossi prevent those kinds of situations - but are more 'counterable' in the later PvT game. I prefer ht, but on SEA you can get away with anything. | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
PvT is my best MU but I dare say that I litteraly hate HT in that MU, even though they are really cool and I loved them in BW. What I do is a 1gate expand followed by a solid tech to colossi with a lot of gateways. From that point, if the terran was aggressive and failed even a little, I can push and take the game. If he didn't, pushing can be quite difficult at an equivalent skill level. From there on, T should pump vikings like crazy. Keep in mind it is difficult for him to see exactly your army composition, so he doesn't know what you're doing exactly and how much vikings to throw in. I then go phoenixes and then carriers with multiple expos (I keep passive and colossi are amazing at defense). I don't go HT anymore, except in late late game. Why ? Many reasons: Teching to HT even on 2/3 bases make you drop in food by around 10 against a decent T Attacking with HTs is a nightmare. They're slow as hell. If youre sentrys are killed for whatever reasons you're army can be kited to death and the templars will be 100 miles behind. I hate losing a game that I was REALLY leading. That happens a lot when you go templars. 20 more food, 2 expo more up ? Loose 90 food to a well placed EMP while the T loses only 10. No, it is not imba, etc. But it can happen more often than you think. Overall, HTs are not a bad choice of course, they are really good. But I don't like the "pray that he won't success with EMPs or die" thing that can make you loose even if the T was really behind. That is a matter of taste I guess, but here was my thinking.  GL in PvT ! | ||
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durr
United States148 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
And then I started getting 2 robos pumping out collosus and I still lost. Then I switched. Now, what I do is 1 robo pumping out collosus, and then transition into templar tech. The collosus reduces the timing window of overpowered terranness of the MMM ball (which kills toss balls unless you have sentry usage which EVEN then doesn't work since you need *good* sentry usage and 60 marines still kills like 60 zealots). =P However, once you have onee collosi or two collosi, terran must get air of they risk forcefield + splash rapage. And then, you can transition into templar tech and make it really safe. | ||
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