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On December 03 2010 07:32 Amivit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 06:53 Skrag wrote:And yes, you are sacrificing a *very small amount* of income until your first inject comes in, but after that inject comes in, you're *ahead*. You're not just catching up, you're *pulling ahead*. You pay a price earlier to pay dividends later. And to be perfectly honest, the price isn't nearly as large as a lot of people are trying to make it out to be. Plus the fact that you actually have an earlier queen to help defend or the ability to pump out zerglings earlier if necessary vs. potential cheese. That sacrifice is -definitely- worth it. Liking this build a lot, thanks!
But if your Queen is out to defend sooner, it might get killed in an attack that you would have otherwise been unable to repel, and then you're behind because a build without the Queen yet wouldn't have lost it because it would have... well...
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On December 03 2010 07:33 fleeze wrote:
i was talking about a 2 rax pressure terran against this build. you don't build zerglings against 2 rax pressure? well good luck then surviving with your "safe" 11 pool....
And what I'm saying, and that you don't seem to be getting is that 2rax pressure can't force you to build zerglings faster than you would have build them with a 14pool. It can't force you to build lings instead of the drones that you would need to pull ahead. (again, pull ahead, not catch up, a difference you've ignored probably half a dozen times now) You can still build the lings, at the same time that the 14pool would have built them, and hold off just as well, without being behind.
i was comparing it to both you know? usually i prefer hatch first builds. op says this build is better economically than a 14/15 hatch.
The op says no such thing, and in fact clearly states that hatch-first builds are superior economically. What the op and others are saying, is that the 11pool compares favorably enough to hatch-first build that the flexibility and early safety are always (or at least almost always) worth the sacrifice. I personally disagree with that. There are situations where hatch-first is going to be the best choice. But nobody's said at any point that 11pool is superior to hatch-first economically. There has been some misinterpretation and misreading, but the OP's graph clearly shows that 14h/15p is ahead of 11pool economically. The 11pool opening *is* superior economically to other pool-first builds though.
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What I'm trying to say is; let's say at each point in time after you put down a pool you are behind in minerals compared to a 14 pool until 5 or 6 minutes in the game (gametime).
In which case if you ever need to spend enough resources on *non drones, e.g gas, ling speed, lings, spine crawlers* you may reach a point where you start to fall behind compared to a 14 pool doing things at the same time.(yes, same time game time, not same time relative to your spawning pool) Because even if you make lings at the same time as a 14 pool, his economy is better built to support that. That's what I'm saying.
Thus, any kind of pressure that's not designed to hit before a hatch first lings are out, theoretically is this builds weakness.
Now I'm not sure about how much this mineral deficit is, and how long it takes to overcome, at least not yet. It's possible that the rewards far outweigh the risks, but before every adopts this as their be all end all build we have to be rigorous.
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fast pool builds rely on early pressure to pay the early investment else they are behind and if it is put under pressure it's behind for sure (it did no damage and can't catch up).
This is the common rationalization for 14pool/16hatch or hatch first builds. The OP is trying to examine whether or not it's just an assumption ("more drones and later pool MUST be a better economy, right?") or actually has some merit. That's why he's been bringing numbers to the table.
I've been following this thread pretty closely because I think the Zerg community here at TL.net is pretty innovative. Every post of yours I've read so far is claiming that he's going to be behind if X happens or if Y doesn't happen... but with no numbers or replays to corroborate what you're saying.
Please, for the sake of argument, don't come back to this thread without at least trying the build (in good faith) and creating replays of the build performing sub-standardly (standard being hatch-first) against the early pressure you're claiming will dismantle it. So far, the OP has shown that this build is competitive with standard openings at least in terms the amount of minerals mined and larvae produced -- but has the added defense of a queen and the safety of ling production capability much earlier than economically focused builds.
especially with the current meta game (fe 2 rax). you as well as the op ignore the fact that there is an opponent in the game that won't allow you to build drones if he scouted your build which is also pretty easy to see with a standard scout timing.
Prove it, please.
who builds an 11 pool for pressure and doesn't safe larvae for those 3 zerglings? 
This isn't a pure pressure build in the slightest. Just because the opening has the capability of changing to a high pressure build if zerglings are made doesn't mean he can't also build drones and play economically if his opponent is also opening economically/passively.
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On December 03 2010 07:45 Skrag wrote:
The op says no such thing, and in fact clearly states that hatch-first builds are superior economically.....
I really did not want to go into this post, but clearly THIS above needs to be re-enforced. It seems the biggest confusion here is that people think the OP states that this "build" is a better econ opening than a 14h/15p. He never says this.
I am playing with this build myself at the moment. I still prefer 14H/15P vs terran but it seems everyone and their mother is doing the foxer early push, so the 14 hatch is not the best idea, for me anyway.
Good post, lots of facts, great arguments (by most people) for and against the build. Needs more replays from different people. 
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I think in the current metagame with the foxer style 2rax builds being so common, that the 11 pool will be the better choice right now. In the long run, 14hatch/15 pool is better econ, so it will probably win out in the long run, especialy on some maps like Jungle/metal/scrap that just make hatch first such a good thing to do. So I would say "I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent." isnt a valid statement. But other then that he is correct, and this will probably become very standard on things like DQ/steps.
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try this against toss:
11 pool ofc. drone until ur expo is up, gas while it is building. spawn larva and make 1 round of drones.
if they do any kind of 3-4 gate push/expand build (scout to see) then put down roach warren and ling speed with first 100 gas. u dont need spines. just make lings and roaches. u also dont need a single more drone to win the game.
the first push he does MAY (probably wont be) close. u should have more then enough to crush it. if he doesnt expand after this push then drone and push ur eco advantage. if he does expand then pump more roach/ling.
the key is do not get supply blocked. if u do u will lose. if u dont u will find yourself at 100 pop earlier then u have ever gotten there.
he has 4 gates (or thereabouts). u have 2 hatches with queens. u can outproduce him by so much it will be laughable.
this guy, 1900 toss, ended the game by saying gg o_0. he msg me and said this build is sick and he was not expecting the swarm. i do this against toss and am probably 15-2 against them lately. 1 game i lost because i was supply blocked for too long, another he did a crazy dt/carrier strat.
http://replayfu.com/download/kGg3tf
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Alright, I tested once 14 pool vs 11 pool.
Used the following build orders:
9 ol
scout: 1:40
14 pool
16 hatch
15 queen
Gas: 3:17
18 OL
11 ol
11 pool
scout 1:51
16 queen
18 hatch
gas 3:25
17 ol
22 ol
Timings:
11 pool hatch done: 4:48 pool done: 2:48
14 pool hatch done: 4:34 pool done: 3:02
@4:02 11 pool = 70 mins, 23/26 14 pool = 100 mins 23/28
@5:00 11 pool = 144 min 116 gas 29/36 14 pool = 28/28 250/124 (got supply blocked LOL)
@6:00 11 pool = 50 min 232 gas 47/52 14 pool ( 6:05) = 200 min 248 gas 44/44 ol coming
Note: Supply block for the 14 pool at 5 minutes screws it up, as well as maynarding i'm not sure if i did it for both rigorously or not, and only 1 pass is only good enough for an approximation. Also 14 pool has 1 more inject coming at the end, so you'd end them to level off with the 150 (5 seconds later on the pass) or so mins being spent on drones.)
But we do find that they're pretty much dead even, maybe 11 pool is a little bit ahead, but the scout was a little later and gas was a little later. Also more optimal build order since i didn't get supply blocked.
The thing is you almost never get to 16 hatch expo because of pylons/scvs/probes blocking. It's an ideal build so I think 11 pool is better.
Pool being 25 seconds earlier, in drone mining time thats about 25-30 minerals so that equates to the figures at 4 minutes, so the difference seems to be actually quite small, assuming you scout a little later and gas a little later.
Seems like a slight improvement over 14 pool but mostly anti rush//expo block. I like it.
On December 03 2010 08:24 Vaporized wrote:try this against toss: 11 pool ofc. drone until ur expo is up, gas while it is building. spawn larva and make 1 round of drones. if they do any kind of 3-4 gate push/expand build (scout to see) then put down roach warren and ling speed with first 100 gas. u dont need spines. just make lings and roaches. u also dont need a single more drone to win the game. the first push he does MAY (probably wont be) close. u should have more then enough to crush it. if he doesnt expand after this push then drone and push ur eco advantage. if he does expand then pump more roach/ling. the key is do not get supply blocked. if u do u will lose. if u dont u will find yourself at 100 pop earlier then u have ever gotten there. he has 4 gates (or thereabouts). u have 2 hatches with queens. u can outproduce him by so much it will be laughable. this guy, 1900 toss, ended the game by saying gg o_0. he msg me and said this build is sick and he was not expecting the swarm. i do this against toss and am probably 15-2 against them lately. 1 game i lost because i was supply blocked for too long, another he did a crazy dt/carrier strat. http://replayfu.com/download/kGg3tf
Not really a great example. He did a late 3 gate push off an expo and you only barely held it off, then stopped drones and overran him with roach/ling, because he had like 20 more workers, and no forge//sim city etc. A really fast 1 gas 4 warpgate arrives at about 6 minutes game time, with 4 stalkers 3 zealots 1 sentry or variants (my one with something like that), with 4 warpgates of production behind it. Normally you can't go past like 20 drones to hold that off.
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On December 03 2010 07:48 Slayer91 wrote:
What I'm trying to say is; let's say at each point in time after you put down a pool you are behind in minerals compared to a 14 pool until 5 or 6 minutes in the game (gametime).
In which case if you ever need to spend enough resources on *non drones, e.g gas, ling speed, lings, spine crawlers* you may reach a point where you start to fall behind compared to a 14 pool doing things at the same time.(yes, same time game time, not same time relative to your spawning pool) Because even if you make lings at the same time as a 14 pool, his economy is better built to support that. That's what I'm saying.
Thus, any kind of pressure that's not designed to hit before a hatch first lings are out, theoretically is this builds weakness.
Now I'm not sure about how much this mineral deficit is, and how long it takes to overcome, at least not yet. It's possible that the rewards far outweigh the risks, but before every adopts this as their be all end all build we have to be rigorous.
Your entire argument and this entire discussion is meaningless because you are operating on a FALSE ASSUMPTION, that this build is behind in economy. Take a look at my last replay. 11pool vs 15 Hatch 15Pool... I am ahead in resources mined at every point from 1:30 to 4:30 when I began making lings. The data is all there, in this thread and the previous.
Obviously you aren't comparing to a build that doesn't include a hatch are you? Or do you think choosing 14 pool over 14 hatch will somehow change the drone count?
I can't even make sense of this thread anymore. What attack is going to interrupt an 11 pool? You say a 2rax? I posted a replay of me putting down a hatch AND beating a2rax AND winning on economy in the mid-game. You are still trying to claim that my economy will simply be crippled because I opened 11pool instead of 14? I just don't get it anymore...
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On December 03 2010 08:30 Slayer91 wrote:
Alright, I tested once 14 pool vs 11 pool.
Used the following build orders:
9 ol
scout: 1:40
14 pool
16 hatch
15 queen
Gas: 3:17
18 OL
11 ol
11 pool
scout 1:51
16 queen
18 hatch
gas 3:25
17 ol
22 ol
Timings:
11 pool hatch done: 4:48 pool done: 2:48
14 pool hatch done: 4:34 pool done: 3:02
@4:02 11 pool = 70 mins, 23/26 14 pool = 100 mins 23/28
@5:00 11 pool = 144 min 116 gas 29/36 14 pool = 28/28 250/124 (got supply blocked LOL)
@6:00 11 pool = 50 min 232 gas 47/52 14 pool ( 6:05) = 200 min 248 gas 44/44 ol coming
Note: Supply block for the 14 pool at 5 minutes screws it up, as well as maynarding i'm not sure if i did it for both rigorously or not, and only 1 pass is only good enough for an approximation. Also 14 pool has 1 more inject coming at the end, so you'd end them to level off with the 150 (5 seconds later on the pass) or so mins being spent on drones.)
But we do find that they're pretty much dead even, maybe 11 pool is a little bit ahead, but the scout was a little later and gas was a little later. Also more optimal build order since i didn't get supply blocked.
The thing is you almost never get to 16 hatch expo because of pylons/scvs/probes blocking. It's an ideal build so I think 11 pool is better.
Pool being 25 seconds earlier, in drone mining time thats about 25-30 minerals so that equates to the figures at 4 minutes, so the difference seems to be actually quite small, assuming you scout a little later and gas a little later.
Seems like a slight improvement over 14 pool but mostly anti rush//expo block. I like it.
Using current minerals is completely meaningless, because each build will make things at different times. Use current minerals mined (Minerals spent + current minerals) for a fair assessment of these builds. 11Pool is ahead in total minerals.
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yeah but at all the points measured, there's the same number of buildings, queens, and hatches, the only variables are drones, which you can simply add one to the supply count, and subtract 50 minerals from the mineral count, and assume there's only 1 ovi in production.
Not rocket science is it?
"completely meaningless"? lol.
I was using an a4 sheet and a replay to look I didn't use the stats at the end because I was taking at several points not at one point. My numbers are valid, at the end add 3 drones and you have the same supply and mineral count.
11 pool might be slightly ahead, but if its within 50 minerals its nothing too important, the other benefits show its worth doing, considering the mineral loss even early one seems to be within 50 minerals.
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Dear fleeze,
When pros use a build and many of them get knocked out of the GSL because of blind hatch vs 2rax push, does this mean that all other builds shouldn't be used because of this? It's funny that July has made it far in the GSL since he goes pool/extractor gfsjgslgmgsngjlfdg ZOMG something new im so confused! its a pro playing a different build deep in GSL. If a pro does a BO it doesnt mean you should follow it every game to heart, it should say "hey this is a BO i should look into it if i dont like it i'll still know it." maybe you should look at the SAME thing with this build...
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On December 03 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah but at all the points measured, there's the same number of buildings, queens, and hatches, the only variables are drones, which you can simply add one to the supply count, and subtract 50 minerals from the mineral count, and assume there's only 1 ovi in production.
Not rocket science is it?
"completely meaningless"? lol.
I was using an a4 sheet and a replay to look I didn't use the stats at the end because I was taking at several points not at one point. My numbers are valid, at the end add 3 drones and you have the same supply and mineral count.
11 pool might be slightly ahead, but if its within 50 minerals its nothing too important, the other benefits show its worth doing, considering the mineral loss even early one seems to be within 50 minerals.
I'm sorry, but this has to be the most complicated method of comparing two builds I have ever seen.
Minerals spent + minerals.... problem solved.
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This build is shit. 2100 diamond. 8 losses in a row with it. I'll stick to what works.
User was warned for this post
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Let's all just leave this thread alone for the day. It's been a rocky start, and we could all use some rest. Let's go play a few games, chill out, and come back tomorrow with some useful replays.
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On December 03 2010 08:49 Mephs wrote:
This build is shit. 2100 diamond. 8 losses in a row with it. I'll stick to what works.
I don't ever do this build directly, as there is no gas in this build... I build a pair of zerglings with the extractor trick at 19/18 when pool finishes after making my queen, and either keep the extractor going for early speedlings, or get gas after hatch goes down.
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On December 03 2010 08:49 Mephs wrote:
This build is shit. 2100 diamond. 8 losses in a row with it. I'll stick to what works.
Reps or it didn't happen.
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On December 03 2010 08:49 Mephs wrote:
This build is shit. 2100 diamond. 8 losses in a row with it. I'll stick to what works.
Damn, I am 2200 diamond and my record with it is 8/10... What a shame.
Guys, I think he proved it. Let's close the thread.
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On December 03 2010 08:56 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 08:49 Mephs wrote:
This build is shit. 2100 diamond. 8 losses in a row with it. I'll stick to what works. Damn, I am 2200 diamond and my record with it is 8/10... What a shame.
I wonder if his losses were your wins? ;-)
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On December 03 2010 08:44 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah but at all the points measured, there's the same number of buildings, queens, and hatches, the only variables are drones, which you can simply add one to the supply count, and subtract 50 minerals from the mineral count, and assume there's only 1 ovi in production.
Not rocket science is it?
"completely meaningless"? lol.
I was using an a4 sheet and a replay to look I didn't use the stats at the end because I was taking at several points not at one point. My numbers are valid, at the end add 3 drones and you have the same supply and mineral count.
11 pool might be slightly ahead, but if its within 50 minerals its nothing too important, the other benefits show its worth doing, considering the mineral loss even early one seems to be within 50 minerals. I'm sorry, but this has to be the most complicated method of comparing two builds I have ever seen. Minerals spent + minerals.... problem solved.
It's not scientific, Its just the obvious way of doing it with a only pen and paper to take down the timings. It requires mental arithmetic that 6 years old can do, I'm sure TL can manage it.
In any case, this wasn't a rigorous comparison, just an approximation to find out roughly if there's a significant mineral deficit or a significant larvae gain over other pool firsts, which there isn't, indicting that this is simply a superior build, with flexible options like 11 overpool ling rush vs greedier builds.
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EPT
