EPT[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 13
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Mephs
139 Posts
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:03 Mephs wrote: 9 now. the build sucks. just get over it. God he is making it so easy... must... resist... urge... to say it.... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 03 2010 08:32 jdseemoreglass wrote: Your entire argument and this entire discussion is meaningless because you are operating on a FALSE ASSUMPTION, that this build is behind in economy. Take a look at my last replay. 11pool vs 15 Hatch 15Pool... I am ahead in resources mined at every point from 1:30 to 4:30 when I began making lings. The data is all there, in this thread and the previous. If one player drones straight to 15 and the other pauses at 11 drones long enough to amass 200 minerals and then morphs a drone into a pool, doesn't it seem strange that the latter player would have mined more minerals at this point in time? I can't watch the replay right now at work, but I'm guessing that the difference lies in suboptimal play or a very early scout from the hatch first player and a very late or no scout from the 11 pool player. I think this is a good opening in ZvZ because it beats 6/7 pool and hatch first. I suspect that it puts you at a small disadvantage against 14 pool because 14 pool gets the 12th-17th drones earlier. I think it's less good in ZvT and ZvP because the earlier pool doesn't make T or P do anything they didn't already want to do anyway. On very small maps, it might force P to make a zealot before cybercore which is suboptimal for a lot of BO's, but actually allows good pressure on small maps. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
Earlier Hatches do not mean you're more vulerable to early pressure. The earlier you Hatch the easier it is to keep the expo alive. It's easier to defend 2rax with Hatch first builds for example just because you're able to build a spinecrawler. 14 Pool 15 Hatch doesn't fare any better than 14 Hatch 13 Pool | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
One important note: The 11pool player fucked up pretty badly in this game, accidentally building 2 overlords instead of 1 before building the pool. That fact makes all of this even more interesting, IMO. At 2:02, when the 15 hatch has just finished its 15th worker: 11pool: 10 drones, 1569 total spending + banked resources, extractor (3/30), pool (29/65), 2 drones in production (15/17 + 8/17) 15hatch: 15 drones, 1545 total spending + banked resources, nothing in production (but hatch will start soon) Surprisingly, despite being at 10 drones for so long, and the extra OL, the 11pool is slightly *ahead* in total resources. This is for a couple reasons. The 15hatch player started 10OL, and sent out a very early scout on 10. The hatch-first player feels like they have to scout early because they auto-lose to a 6pool if they put down the hatch first, but the 11pool doesn't have to send out an early scout, because they're safe against anything. At 2:43, when the 11pool catches up in drone count: 11P: 14d, 1769 S+R, extractor(28/30), pool(55/65), 1 drone(2/17) 15H: 14d, 1915 S+R, hatch(22/100) Ok, we're starting to fall behind prety significantly, to the tune of 150 minerals. However, the 11pool player has put down a pretty early extractor, and between that and the accidental 3rd overlord, that would be 2 drones that could have been mining. Later gas and not fucking up the OL would probably put the count much closer. At 4:28, when the 11pool's first inject just finishes. This should be the point where it's the furthest behind. 11P: 17d, 2870 S+R, hatch(43/100), 6 lings(22/24x2 + 13/24), zergling speed(31/110) 15H: 15d, 6z, 2718 S+R, 2 drones(9/17+12/17) The really interesting thing here is that the 15hatch player has seen the early pool from his opponent, feels threatened, and because of this, saved 3 larvae to build lings ASAP, even making sure they started before his queen. Because of that, at the point where the 11pool is supposed to be the furthest behind, the 11pool is actually ahead in drones, resources, *and* tech. All this despite what I would consider a MASSIVE fuckup early on. Last point of interest, 5:25, just before the 11pool attacks with his first 6 lings: 11P: 16d, 16z, 3508 S+R, 2 lings(16/24), hatch(100/100), baneling nest(33/60) 15H: 18d, 6z, 3330 S+R, crawler(16/50), 2 drones(1/17+2/17), ling speed(33/110) At this point, the 11pool is firmly ahead in resources and tech, and is only behind on drones due to the decision to start mass-producing lings, producing 10 lings that could have been 5 drones. The game ends 2 minutes later with the 15hatch simply being overpowered. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:14 kcdc wrote: If one player drones straight to 15 and the other pauses at 11 drones long enough to amass 200 minerals and then morphs a drone into a pool, doesn't it seem strange that the latter player would have mined more minerals at this point in time? I can't watch the replay right now at work, but I'm guessing that the difference lies in suboptimal play or a very early scout from the hatch first player and a very late or no scout from the 11 pool player. I think this is a good opening in ZvZ because it beats 6/7 pool and hatch first. I suspect that it puts you at a small disadvantage against 14 pool because 14 pool gets the 12th-17th drones earlier. I think it's less good in ZvT and ZvP because the earlier pool doesn't make T or P do anything they didn't already want to do anyway. On very small maps, it might force P to make a zealot before cybercore which is suboptimal for a lot of BO's, but actually allows good pressure on small maps. sorry just had to quote this as this is exactly my thought process, but better articulated  but you will also fail trying to use common sense on the op and his mindless followers. opportunity costs should be pretty obvious and shouldn't need an explanation to people that actually use their brains. the last posts by various people referring to myself where hilarious btw. making up assumptions and statements i never made. just as expected. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:14 kcdc wrote: If one player drones straight to 15 and the other pauses at 11 drones long enough to amass 200 minerals and then morphs a drone into a pool, doesn't it seem strange that the latter player would have mined more minerals at this point in time? I can't watch the replay right now at work, but I'm guessing that the difference lies in suboptimal play or a very early scout from the hatch first player and a very late or no scout from the 11 pool player. There was a slightly sub-optimal play from the 15hatch player (10OL instead of 9OL, with no extractor trick), and there was also an early scout. But don't you *have* to early scout zvz if you're going hatch first, or risk auto-losing to 6-8pool? | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:22 fleeze wrote: the last posts by various people referring to myself where hilarious btw. making up assumptions and statements i never made. just as expected. Oh, you mean like when you said the OP claimed this build was ahead of hatch-first builds economically? | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:14 kcdc wrote: If one player drones straight to 15 and the other pauses at 11 drones long enough to amass 200 minerals and then morphs a drone into a pool, doesn't it seem strange that the latter player would have mined more minerals at this point in time? I can't watch the replay right now at work, but I'm guessing that the difference lies in suboptimal play or a very early scout from the hatch first player and a very late or no scout from the 11 pool player. I think this is a good opening in ZvZ because it beats 6/7 pool and hatch first. I suspect that it puts you at a small disadvantage against 14 pool because 14 pool gets the 12th-17th drones earlier. I think it's less good in ZvT and ZvP because the earlier pool doesn't make T or P do anything they didn't already want to do anyway. On very small maps, it might force P to make a zealot before cybercore which is suboptimal for a lot of BO's, but actually allows good pressure on small maps. The problem with 14/15 pools is the really late queen. 11 pool gets the queen much sooner, which means you can get a whole round of drones out earlier, which actually more then makes up for the initial lost mining time and few seconds of having 3 larvae. The best way to test this is to start a game on Normal speed to micro perfectly, then save the game at 9 supply. From here, load the saved game and split the build into the 11 overpool 18 hatch, and a 14 pool 16 hatch, and compare replays after. The only differences in the builds will be related to the builds themselves, not execution of them since they both started with the exact same split and timings up until 9 drones, and normal speed will ensure that you don't miss building anything optimally after that. Amazingly you will see that 11 pool mines more minerals, and stays ahead in supply due to having more larvae available thanks to the early queen. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
Also, the updated build with gas is terrible. Missed overlords, as well as Shakura's Plateau. The gas doesn't matter as much in Shakura's because the huge distances do not favour any early aggression. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
11 overpool 16 queen 18 extractor 17 lings 18 overlord 18 hatchery Lings should hatch right about the same time you want to send your drone to expand, so send out lings with your expanding drone. get speed when you have 100 gas. It's a healthy middle between safe speedlings and eco early expanding. I really like the early lings because you can gain so much info with them, and I feel like I'm putting pressure on without crippling my economy. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:37 Blisse wrote: Can someone such as Idra do this build and provide replays? I would like to see someone with flawless mechanics try this build and give their opinion. It is difficult to argue for either side when the build isn't performed optimally. Also, the updated build with gas is terrible. Missed overlords, as well as Shakura's Plateau. The gas doesn't matter as much in Shakura's because the huge distances do not favour any early aggression. Sure man, let me call up IdrA on the phone. I'm sure he'd be willing to accommodate us. And wouldn't the fact that the build isn't being preformed optimally, and yet is still winning so convincingly, be more of a compliment rather than a detriment? Or do you want me to give you a build so you don't have to think or adjust for 6 minutes? | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 03 2010 06:53 kcdc wrote: That would help a ton with this duscussion. Just do something reasonably safe with a 14 pool 16 hatch with an extractor trick before OL to keep the comparison as close as possible. Send a drone to scout after your OL finishes. Get a pair of zerglings and an extractor after your queen, research zergling speed at 100 gas, and make some zerglings and a spine crawler when your hatch finishes. Pull drones off gas after 100 for speed. Then note what your defense is at each point in time and your total resources mined. Try to match that level of defense off of an 11 pool and compare the total resources mined. Certain things might not match up--the 11 pool won't have the creep as early for a spine crawler at the nat, so you might want to start it in your main and move it down or compensate with more zerglings. Try to get zergling speed at about the same time in both cases as being 30 seconds late on both speed and your spine crawler is a huge deal in the game. Any chance you have or can dig up a replay of something you'd like me to try to reproduce as closely as possible? Or want me to just wing it based on what you've said here? | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:55 Skrag wrote: Any chance you have or can dig up a replay of something you'd like me to try to reproduce as closely as possible? Or want me to just wing it based on what you've said here? Dont do the extractor trick for the 14 pool, that is stupid and less efficient for a 14 pool. Extractor trick is only good for the 11 pool because we put the pool down so soon, and its better to have more drones mining earlier to get the pool up sooner. 9 overlord is most efficient for a 14 pool, so do that. We want to compare the 11 overpool build with the standard 14 pool build, not some less efficient version of the 14 pool. | ||
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genopath
80 Posts
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Mephs
139 Posts
every replay it looks like you're playing low MMR scrubs to me. how you got to 2200 diamond is a mystery. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:04 Mephs wrote: the point of 14/15 hatch first is so you can get a spine up and hold back early pressure not for the minimal economy boost. 6 lings wont hold off 2 early zealots. And if you pump out more than that you're blowing the build anyway. every replay it looks like you're playing low MMR scrubs to me. how you got to 2200 diamond is a mystery. Since when was 2200 diamond really that good? I can spot a billion mistakes made by the top ladder players when I watch their replays, many of them severe. Missed larva injects, supply blocking, unspent resources, idle workers, etc etc. If I see all these things at much higher levels then I expect to see it at lower ones too. Let me watch some of your replays and we can all wonder how the hell you got to 2100 too. Oh wait, maybe its because 2100 isn't that good? | ||
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Mephs
139 Posts
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Almania
145 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:03 genopath wrote: I don't understand. Wasn't it proved beyond reasonable doubt (lol) that 9ol 10drone is far superior than extractor trick? The answer, as always, is it depends. If you're planning on going for say an economic 10 pool (not recommended due to larva timings), you're best off getting an overlord at 10. Not 9. As you'll still be saving for the pool by the time it's placed - meaning you're not supply blocked at any point. 11 pool (extractor trick) is the same story - if you want an early pool (in this case for an early queen) you're best off extractor tricking and 11 overlording. But yes, I'm not sure about this build. It's only economical if you drone up - where all the timings with the larva etc work out perfect - but if you get a single ling or gas you're then behind. I've given it a few goes and lost them all.. but my persevere for a little longer, but gas just doesn't seem to work with this build. Your best hope is that they get frightened into their base by the early pool.. but I haven't had such luck so far. | ||
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