Yes - We should devote this week to doing the stove. (49)
83%
No - no week will ever be do the stove week. (8)
14%
We should have "do the stove week" be some other time. (2)
3%
59 total votes
Your vote: Should Dec 12 - 18 be do the stove week?
(Vote): Yes - We should devote this week to doing the stove. (Vote): No - no week will ever be do the stove week. (Vote): We should have "do the stove week" be some other time.
Hello Team Liquid.
Here is the basics of the concept. While I have never actually used this build I have a feeling it could be a viable strategy, maybe not for high level play, but a build to mess around with when you're tired of 1 or 2 gate robo or 4-gate. The concept is pretty simple, and requires the following. 1. Get a fast Pheonix to punish all the overlords to allow steps two and three to be effective. 2. Switch to DTs 3. Get a Mother Ship. ________ The crucial part of this is surviving until the Pheonix. Force Fields can hold the ramp only so long, and the build is very gas heavy. The Pheonix had bonus damage to Light. This means they're able to chew threw the Mutalisk, and once in a good mass they take out overlords and overseers with ease, they can even lift the hydras and hit them for bonus damage too.
Once the overseer's are on defense the DTs become much more deadly. Once morphed into Archon we get bonus damage to every Zerg unit. This allows you to hold the zerg from macroing up, while you macro up and set up for step three.
The Mother Ship. In this build it's primary use is for the cloak blanket, and possibly defensive mass recall.
Once the Mother Ship is out, you should be on two fully saturated bases, and just took third while you have a stealth army of DTs and some morphed archons, any follow up is viable, two robos/ HT/ additional StarGates
What are your thoughts on this build? What are the biggest threats to the build? -other than an infestor highjacking the Mother ship. What could be done to optimize the strategy? -blink stalkers for the courrupters? That's if they're able to keep a spire up with the DTs wrecking anything trying to stop them/ detect them/ stop the pheonixes from killing overseers.
How quickly are you able to produce phoenixes while performing a tech switch to DTs? Not only is that extremely time consuming, but also resource consuming. Dark templars nowhere close to being 'cheap', and they're sort of a hit & miss unit.
Also, wouldn't a zerg plant spore crawlers around his base to prevent phoenix harass? It's counter-productive to the dark templars in the first place.
Mothership... no comment.
This build overall seems very gimmicky. Until you can give me some specifics on how to really deal with the possible responses that the zerg might take, then I can't see this build doing well at all.
i just dont like turtling up as the protoss. There are so many ways to lose. I mean what if he pumps out 6 roaches at the beginning, or goes banlings. There is just too much time from start to MoShip for stuff to go wrong. Sure you can turtle like a mofo with cannons everywhere, phoenixes harassing, but if the zerg opponent is any good, im' sure he'll expand set some spore crawlers and simply beat you with numbers and some OK scouting.
I'm not saying it's not possible, just too risky for it to be a viable/useful strategy. I can see this workign with a Fast expand for all the gas you'llneed for this build to work.
the stove is the most gimmicky build ever but so fun if it works, which usually doesnt happen because it dos not make any sense as it forces the opponent to e response which also counters the next step.
the sc2 version could be more viable with a voidray, but that would prolly take away the spirit.
On December 02 2010 02:40 bearjuice wrote: also a note, that you will be forcing your opponent to probably put down a spore crawler or two which negates your dts.
That's what makes it "the stove". The original stove was based around building a scout, which should force turrets, and then transitioning to DTs, which the turrets should have hardcountered...
The point is to contain the zerg, while you're free to macro up. Forcing production of spore crawlers allows you to make the zerg play defensively. When a Zerg is on defense he's going to have a hard time expanding, and the DT's are going to force him to bring an overseer if he wants to engage in combat out side of the base.
In the early game it's important to get to get a sentry to hold off early roach pressure at the ramp. Additional sentry should be added to hold the roaches off for as long as possible. Maybe a forge cannon choke then expand at natural could be able to hold this better. Once pheonix are out the nydus shouldn't be a problem.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
Void Ray first then get the Twilight Council as soon as you drop the gate would problebly be better. This will allow the DT's to come into play sooner and your void ray is probebly better at harassing alone then a solo pheonix.
I would honestly try to get first hand experience with what you suggest before posting it here, as it's hard to assess how well it works unless you try it.
In theory however, this seems dumb, really dumb. You won't have enough gas, you won't be able to push out of a contain, your phoenixes will incite spore crawlers which counter the DTs.
And seriously, a mothership? Not even HuK manages to pull that off.
The Mother Ship is what makes the build complete. Once you hear "justice has come", you can just say 'gg' because there is no way for the zerg to win now. You're going to be denying his ability to get mobile detection, and even if he just masses up corrupters the archons are going to fuck them up with the splash and bonus damage.
the DT's to mother ship seems pretty retarded. since the zerg will get overseers or spore crawlers to spot the DT's. more likely spore crawlers in fact as that will also deal with the pheonix. so when your mother ship eventually turns up it will get decloaked and taken out asap. also as others have also pointed out, you have to magically survive to that point.
If you wanna do something wacky, why not go pylon > nexus at the top of your ramp to wall off and pump probes from two nexus to saturate your mineral line super fast and then tech (with two nexus worth of chrono). prob work best on jungle basin since you can take your natural and then use the back entrance to move your army out and take a 3rd.
I won't argue this build as it is so similar to the hilarity of the stove but I would like you to change your name... The royal stove was iced for only the best who can use a dark archon to mc an SCV. Simply call it "the sc2 stove"
Along with all the other earlier mentioned flaws, I'd add that a rush player will absolutely crush a tech-build like this (let alone the double-tech build this calls for). Not gonna work out great. Put up some replays to validate or else it's just theorycrafting and wishful thinking.
you go pylon, gateway, gas, core, gas, research. get stalker get sentry stalker, start a stargate and twilight council. after you start teh voidray get the dark shrine and the second and third gate ways.
I'm sure HuK would win if he executed this build. I did something very similar to this against a Terran on Scrap Station. I went for a quick void ray against a cloaked banshee. Got the mother ship mass recalled into his base and it came down to a base race which I was able to win because of the cannons in his base, and my void ray was able to chase down all his floating buildings. If I had got the DTs instead of the fleet beacon I still win because of cannons in my base.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
Lol golden description, makes me want to use this against some poor zerg...
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
That sounds amazing :O (except for the girlfriend part)
I've always wondered how viable pheonix into DT's were...
On December 02 2010 02:25 Sabin010 wrote: 2. Switch to DTs 3. Get a Mother Ship.
This just made me lol for like 5 minutes
seriously i see no way of this build working againsed a good player who dosnt muck up badly. Fristly you are vunrable at the beggining becasue you have no real proper defensive units and you are compleatly relying on ff.
When the phenioxes come out you still can defend very well. Then you get DTs which may contain him becasue your phenioxes can snipe the overlords however me can easily defend becasue the zerg will already have some spores up becasue of the phenioxes so they will prolly do no damage.
Then you get a mothership and some archons. Hmm ok firstly archons arn't a core army unitand are only used when ht are out of energy. Finaly the mothership, err despite the thread going around about it being used in pvp getting a mothership randomly isnt going to be that good because there best ability is to create a clacking field. hmm there might have detection considring you have just used dts and they will have spores because you have phenioxes.
So congrats you have just created only of the worst builds that you can do on SC2.
GUYS, this isn't a real build. Why are you analyzing it? It's a joke that makes you giddy if you pull it off in Broodwar, and he's searching for the SC2 equivalent. That's it.
Void ray would give u a free expansion against non muta (get 1 pheonix with the void to discourage), and then get dt to kill the zergs 3rd. You're now even on bases and how you play from here is up to you. Seems pretty solid honestly, unless he gets spores to counter voids instead of hydra or queens. I'm gonna test, but without mothership.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
So what's the metaphor for the the point where you MC a SCV and tech to siege tanks and start recalling cloaked sieged tanks?
No, of course I didn't get a mothership...the build was killed as soon as he got an overseer. he had 4 queens and hydras in production when my DTs got there.
On December 02 2010 03:54 Chill wrote: GUYS, this isn't a real build. Why are you analyzing it? It's a joke that makes you giddy if you pull it off in Broodwar, and he's searching for the SC2 equivalent. That's it.
There are decent DT/phoenix builds.
There a lot of threads about them.
DTs delay long enough to get HTs on the field.
HTs for feedback on overseers + phoenixes mean keeping overseers alive is very hard. DTs do great damage if they don't die first. They absolutely destroy hydras. Colossus get boring.
Sorry to derail. Doing this exceedingly fast and getting a mothershi, well, awesome.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
So what's the metaphor for the the point where you MC a SCV and tech to siege tanks and start recalling cloaked sieged tanks?
That is the royal stove.
Although traditionally, the sometimes-forgotten fifth step was to transition into losing your whole fucking base and then trying desperately to win with just Terran units, and then leave the game saying you should've won that.
On December 02 2010 14:02 mangsky wrote: yeah skip the DT, anyway you do not want him to invest in detection at this point lest it render your mothership useless
That is the point. You want your units to be as crappy as possible to make victory so much more sweet.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
Love the description ^^
I was doing a varient of this through beta, but it was really just "as cheesy as you can get as protoss". Proxy 3 voidray rush into DT into mothership, and you just expand if any of the steps are successful. I had a friend who did cannon rush into proxy voidray, and both the builds were pretty fun ^^
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
So what's the metaphor for the the point where you MC a SCV and tech to siege tanks and start recalling cloaked sieged tanks?
Uhh That's when you tie your girlfriend up, have her watch, and fuck her best friend?
My understanding was the royal stove involved the use of a dark archon to mind control an SCV and then use arbiters to recall sieged up siege tanks.
In that vein, I propose that the SC2 royal stove involve using an infestor to mind control an scv, build siege tanks and then use nydus canals to move them around.
So the stove has come to Sc2? It feels a bit off. On one hand DT follow up into Mothership is suitably terrible and pretty unexpected, but opening Phoenix won't induce the necessary WTFs that a freaking fast Scout would. The WTF factor was key to the original.
On December 02 2010 15:25 Aquafresh wrote: So the stove has come to Sc2? It feels a bit off. On one hand DT follow up into Mothership is suitably terrible and pretty unexpected, but opening Phoenix won't induce the necessary WTFs that a freaking fast Scout would. The WTF factor was key to the original.
that's why i said it has to be fast carriers into dt.
On December 02 2010 15:23 DiracMonopole wrote: My understanding was the royal stove involved the use of a dark archon to mind control an SCV and then use arbiters to recall sieged up siege tanks.
In that vein, I propose that the SC2 royal stove involve using an infestor to mind control an scv, build siege tanks and then use nydus canals to move them around.
Better still- get into a 2v2 as Zerg, against a Terran/Protoss team. Neural Parasite an SCV and a Probe, build a Mothership and Siege Tanks, and Mass Recall the Sieged Tanks.
Closer, in a way, to the original Royal Stove. Plus, how cool is it to have high-tech units from all 3 races at once?
Ive actually encountered a similar build on the ladder... They opened 3 gate pressure, transitioned into phoenixs to shutdown my mutas, then got DT's which are incredibly powerful if they have the ability to kill every overseer on the field with their phoenixs... Still, just turtled with some spore crawls then pushed out with a tonne of overseers and won. But i was completely stressing for awhile when i couldnt engage outside of my base because of the DT threat.
Well I did the stove until I got put back into bronze league, but I did manage one win on delta quadrant against a terran. I'll post the replay tonight. I'm pretty sure it turned into a 25- warp gate getting HT DT blinkers and chargelots 5-star gate massin carriers 4-robo massing colossi 6 base 200 supply noobfest.
Really losing to mass blink stalkers is embarassing enough. I don't mean blink stalker harass. I mean if you never build anything but blink stalkers.
Not going to try this build. Because it's just not interesting - if you survive to make DTs, it's only because you already beat him with pure phoenix and just couldn't destroy his buildings, since buildings counter phoenix (:p). He'd probably type GG faster than you could build the mothership.
Mass Sentry + Mothership + mass Probe recall, that would be pretty embarassing.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
Probably the best explanation of The Stove ever......EVER
You only get one pheonix because you need the gas for DT tech, and fleet beacon, and mother ship. You're going to need the gas to get a sentry for ff-ing the ramp too. This isn't like we open with 5 pheonix and actually go out harassing. The one pheonix is supposed to make the opponent lol, and push out. So you get one DT at the bottem of the ramp when he pushes, and start chrono boosting the mothership. then you ff the ramp and the dt kills guys until the detection comes in, but you get the pheonix to kill any mobile detection.
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
Because it wouldn't be the stove. There are plenty of ways to make this strategy better, for example, turtle up, mass void rays, use phoenixes to deny scouting.
On December 02 2010 02:59 Chill wrote: The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
About as clear-cut as it could get, I'm deeply saddened by the number of people who started going into build analysis without looking at the 'purpose'.
Like someone else mentioned, this strategy described here isn't a Royal Stove because there is no more mind control ability available to Protoss compared to Brood War. Rather just a SC2 Variant of Chef's Stove.
I'm waiting for the first few replays of the SC2 Stove regardless just for the pure entertainment value and consequent shaming of the victim.
On December 02 2010 16:29 rauk wrote: you can't mass recall allied units. i've tried it before with ZP team and it didn't recall banelings, only the probes.
But, if a Zerg player controls both a mothership and siege tanks that they've built (i.e., they've NP'd both a probe AND an SCV, and started from scratch with 2 races instead of just 1), can the mothership recall a sieged tank?
On December 02 2010 02:52 Twitch89 wrote: If you're planning to morph the DTs anyway, why not go HT-Archon instead?
The Stove is an old build from Brood War. It was going Scouts (a terribly underpowered flying unit), into DTs, into Arbiters (a cloaking spellcaster like the Mothership). The build was pretty nonsensical and arguably bad; however, it was so unpredictable that it worked even against top players occasionally. It was the equivalent of a slap in the face.
The Royal Stove required a fourth step: morphing a Dark Archon (extremely underused spellcaster) and using Mind Control (a permanent Neural Parasite) against your opponent. This was like getting slapped in the face while your girlfriend watched and fucked your best friend.
I thought royal stove involved mind controlling a worker too?
On December 04 2010 09:06 Mataza wrote: The question should be more "Does a NPed scv finish your command center or do you need to NP it for 100 seconds?"
No you need to NP it like 9-10 times, it just runs away. Fortunately it does not cancel the construction.
Not sure what happens if you morph a building with a drone though.
Isn't transitioning from DT's (invisible units to take advantage of their current lack of detection caused by the phoenix opening and/or forcing spors) to the Mothership ( an easily destroyable arbiter, especially when focused on ) a very bad thing considering they'll most likely have excess detection made available when you were aggressive with DT's? If you don't do a lot of damage with DT's, wont they have the invis part pretty much dealt with and the mothership useless at that point? (and no, I dont think vortex alone makes the mothership worth it.) Even for a joke, how is this funny?
The real point is, there is no scout. The scout was a laughable big version of the wraith without cloak for a hefty price of 275/125. The ground to air attack was 8, and the attack was slow. A marine attacked 2 times without stim for every attack of the scout. So the scout was worth around half a marine for damage to ground purposes.
The stove guide even says you have to do a fuckload of damage to make the scout worthwhile. Then when you also tech to dts you need to do a fuckload of damage to make the dts worthwhile. And so forth. All we can achieve right now is a goodminded stove-copy.
The spiritual successor of the scout is the voidray, no? Price is similar, though the vr is good instead of bad. However the build is still very bad, after going vr switching to dts is about the least intuitive way of playing. And vrs dont encourage single turrets but clusters of them or anti air units. I think I am going to do it right now.
[edit] I tried it 2 times and of course it didn´t work. Anyway, it felt to be quite similar to the stove relays I´ve seen. Though I am by no means good with protoss, here is what I did(I won´t detail everything, like when warpgate tech etc.):
tell him you are going to pwn his sorry ass 8 pylon 10 gate 11 gas core after gate I threw in a double gas steal, for bad manners mainly. stargate -> 1 voidray, chronoboost it asap twilight council and dark shrine and fleet beacon try to build pylons so i can warp in on his high ground 1 volley of dts, sight with voidray build mothership ->recall an army in his base.
My execution was crisp, in the sense that feces get crisp when dry. My unit control is shitty, I instantly lost my voidray to stalkers, also he had observers by the time I had dts. The mass recall was pretty good though. [/edit]
I finally have an answer to the question of tank recall- YES!
If a Zerg player neural parasites an SCV, builds a CC for another SCV, techs to siege tanks, neural parasites a Probe, builds a nexus, techs and gets a mothership, that mothership CAN recall sieged tanks!
EPT
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