Wow. Just wow.

Well executed OP + amazing strategy that actually works? Win.

If I had to say one bad thing about this, it's that this build is a micro build. It doesn't get even close to mid-game and a lot of the strategy is dependent on the micro part, deploying your units simultaneously, and coordinating them to the best possible effect. Still a very good build though.

CCow

Germany335 Posts

March 17 2011 13:26 GMT

#262

Responding to the last two posts...

The new maps are not bad for this build. I was not sure about it first, but I am quite sure now, after I have played on all of them quite a little.
The build is not over-powered or anything it is just, as many have stated up to now, way easier to execute than it is to defend against it.
I wrote quite something to how I think how to respond to it before, so I won't repeat it again. :D

The reason for most high-ranked teams not to use this, is that is has close to no good follow-up so it's quite all-in. Even the banelin follow-up by zerg does not change this fact.
And honestly, playing all-in ever game is just SUPER-BORING(!) and won't help you at all in understanding how 2v2 works. Most high-ranked PZ teams can execute this build and do it once in a while, just not every game unlike quite some teams I have played where you can be like 150% sure they will play it even if you meet them the third time in a row, because they are like plat-level 1on1.

redeux

United States148 Posts

March 17 2011 15:43 GMT

#263

On March 17 2011 22:26 CCow wrote:
The reason for most high-ranked teams not to use this, is that is has close to no good follow-up so it's quite all-in.

True statement. Especially when most ZT teams will go 10p/hellion and can completely shred a team if they do this build. A lot of builds in 2's that I've seen open the same but then it's all about the transitions. A korean 5 gate build has less transition ability than a standard 4gate so if the first push fails then it'd be difficult to makea comeback against an even-matched team.

0neDose

Canada14 Posts

March 17 2011 15:59 GMT

#264

My 2v2 build beats this... 10 marines plus 6 scvs by 4:10 and IN ur base by 4:40... we haven't lost a single 2v2 match unless it's double zerg who rush roach..

This was happening until I took a break on February 24, 2011.. I'm trying to improve marks.

This was before master league in 2s was out. We reached 1 diamond with 3k points... when I come back at the end of the semester we will hit 1 masters

)

We're going to release our build to TL soon. It's the best TvZ 1v1 build and 2v2 build ever. COMING SOON TO A TL POST NEAR YOU!

CCow

Germany335 Posts

March 17 2011 16:47 GMT

#265

Hope you got some reasons for that announcement.
Haven't had too many problems with mass marine all-ins so far, so it should be rather impressive.
If it is just another marine+speedling mass-build it would not really be new or anything.
Also, what's your nick and maybe your teammate's? Rather hard to find anything that legitimates your post so far.

redeux

United States148 Posts

March 17 2011 17:06 GMT

#266

So each of you get 5 marines and send 3 scv's? I can't say I've had any problems with it. Last time someone tried doing that to me I laid down 4 spines and counter attacked. I killed both terran mineral lines completely and forced them to lift off. They killed my teammate and tried to kill me but couldn't. I think a lot of people just panic when they see a push like that and don't react properly.

oGm`REM

United States870 Posts

March 17 2011 17:21 GMT

#267

This is a very good strat in my opinion. Do you have anything for T/P or T/Z?

CCow

Germany335 Posts

March 17 2011 18:32 GMT

#268

On March 18 2011 02:06 GetGood wrote:
So each of you get 5 marines and send 3 scv's? I can't say I've had any problems with it. Last time someone tried doing that to me I laid down 4 spines and counter attacked. I killed both terran mineral lines completely and forced them to lift off. They killed my teammate and tried to kill me but couldn't. I think a lot of people just panic when they see a push like that and don't react properly.

Don't forget that one bunker for terran and stalker-micro + guardianshield or, if you can see it is all-in, cannons take care of it as well. Don't see that being imba so far.

redeux

United States148 Posts

March 17 2011 19:41 GMT

#269

On March 18 2011 02:21 oGm`REM wrote:
This is a very good strat in my opinion. Do you have anything for T/P or T/Z?

I don't know about T/P since I play Z but the standard for a lot of T/Z teams is going to be 10p/hellion and then transition. Depending on the game I've seen T transition into Viking, Banshee or Marauders depending on the other teams composition.

oGm`REM

United States870 Posts

March 17 2011 19:58 GMT

#270

What do you mean by 10p? 10 pylon?

redeux

United States148 Posts

March 17 2011 20:27 GMT

#271

basic build orders:

10 gas
9 pool

hellion is
depot
gas
rax
factory
reactor switch

CCow

Germany335 Posts

March 17 2011 20:29 GMT

#272

Thin again? T/Z if hellion is the T-part could the p possibly mean "pool"? :p
Also it's rather hard to say stuff about "other MUs" because 5gate isn't really the "standard for" P/Z, but still rather stalker+ling/bling.
So if you search for builds that are about as effective for the same difficulty, that's quite a difference.

Other than that I can sign GetGood's post. Hate to play against it. QQ! ^^

oGm`REM

United States870 Posts

March 17 2011 21:11 GMT

#273

On March 18 2011 05:27 GetGood wrote:
basic build orders:

10 gas
9 pool

hellion is
depot
gas
rax
factory
reactor switch

Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?

familyguy123

92 Posts

March 18 2011 00:13 GMT

#274

On March 18 2011 06:11 oGm`REM wrote:

Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?

Rarely anything is viable in all matchups, even one matchup. In particular it's going to get roflstomped by double P. Stalker/sentry ball.... Even against double zerg, I'd imagine roaches soft counter this though you could make the argument the mobility is really important.

I think this is more of a specific counter to this build

redeux

United States148 Posts

March 18 2011 00:25 GMT

#275

On March 18 2011 06:11 oGm`REM wrote:
Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?

It's more based on match up and the map. If the zerg can't do any damage with the 10 pool then they'll be behind on economy and be harder to make a comeback.

Far.771

United States51 Posts

March 19 2011 10:39 GMT

#276

On March 18 2011 06:11 oGm`REM wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?

it really depends. vs teams with zerg who ling early it's deadly. you can win the game reeeeeeal fast.

this isn't really the type of build that you just go. "ok u mass some lings and we'll hit when i get 10 hellions."

the power of the build really comes with how u play it. ie; aggressively as hell.

i've been typing sentence after sentence and deleting them and deleting them over and over again in attempt to try and explain it. the best i could do is offer you some high level 2v2 reps of mine where the build's being used. pm me if you want some.

it takes a long long while to learn the meta game for 2s. learning when you should use it and not. it's tough and just comes with experience.

Geiko

France1936 Posts

March 19 2011 11:04 GMT

#277

The real problem with 10p/hellions is how easy it is to scout it.
Gaz before racks gives it away and then it is very easy to prepare accordingly.

Afterstar

67 Posts

April 14 2011 18:14 GMT

#278

This strategy is too strong,especially against PT,PZ,TZ,PP. Easy to execute,yet so hard to defend and even if you defend,you are on even grounds with your opponents.So PZ gets a free shot for an easy win and if it doesn't work,it's a normal game;because there is just not enough time to prepare a good counter attack,before they also have a good army.

Below in the pictures we can see that you can have a pylon and an overlord vision out of range of the marines,so a Terran needs to get a Maurauder if he wants to shoot down the pylon from inside his base.There is enough room to warp in 4 zealots at one time,if there are no units there to block the space.The zerglings defend the pylons while they warp in,so slow moving units such as marines or zealots have no chance moving out to kill it from outside.If you try to kill it from inside your base,they can just put one or two more pylons further away,in which case,there is no time to kill them all before a warp in.

+ Show Spoiler +

Map used: The Unit Tester
Link: Unit Tester download

You have to, both you and your ally play flawlessly and ten times better than your opponents to be able to defend,which is absurb imo.Also if you prepare for it and it doesn't come,you will be way behind in eco,so it's a win-win situation for PZ.

RinconH

United States512 Posts

April 14 2011 19:20 GMT

#279

So how do you beat this build?

I hate it... I seldom can beat it unless its poorly executed.

I mean, you can beat it if you completely change your standard build order to stop it but if they don't do it then you are screwed.

Afterstar

67 Posts

April 14 2011 19:36 GMT

#280

On April 15 2011 04:20 RinconH wrote:
So how do you beat this build?

I hate it... I seldom can beat it unless its poorly executed.

I mean, you can beat it if you completely change your standard build order to stop it but if they don't do it then you are screwed.

Sadly the best way to "beat" it,is to avoid it all together.
You thumbs down as many maps as possible that don't have a shared base,or have a long distance between ramps for non-shared bases.This way you increase your chances of survival.