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I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz.
As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
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I find this build is weakest against 1 base zerg roach and terran in general.
The proper way to counter as zerg is to just one base roach and hold position/ building wall of around hatch to delay death as long as possible so that your ally can get more roaches/ 4 gate/ 3 rax up and running to defend then counter.
Terrans have to pull their scvs to tank and keep their marines alive while keeping lings out with the walloff.
Toss is fucked. You could i guess go for a more econ k4wg and try to hold if your partner also goes lings/banes
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On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz.
As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
I don't think you played against this that many times.
First of all your base is normally kind of big. You won't just happen to have two stalkers in the exact spot you can shoot at the pylon from. If you do have two stalkers and skip the sentry forthe time being, the zerg can attack your ramp while the toss is building the pylons, forcing you to either let the speedlings in or to back off your stalkers.
Also the protoss has no problem with building 3 pylons, which you cant kill whatsoever.
If you don't kill the pylon and go for a "normal" build with rather early you won't be able to hold the ramp, since the protoss can just send his zealot to clear it up.
If you as terran go for marauders you don't only lose a lot of time where you are not getting units, you also got quite bad dps against the speedlings, limiting really how much you can leave your base in order to help your mate. Pure marines really just helps a lot more.
You dont have "a ton of time" against this. You have about 40 ingame-seconds from when the pylon begins to when they warp-in for the first time.
On March 02 2011 14:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
I find this build is weakest against 1 base zerg roach and terran in general.
The proper way to counter as zerg is to just one base roach and hold position/ building wall of around hatch to delay death as long as possible so that your ally can get more roaches/ 4 gate/ 3 rax up and running to defend then counter.
Terrans have to pull their scvs to tank and keep their marines alive while keeping lings out with the walloff.
Toss is fucked. You could i guess go for a more econ k4wg and try to hold if your partner also goes lings/banes
If you go for tanks you don't have enough marines to kill off the warped-in units in time, imho.
This makes it really hard to hold your ramp, even though you can repair it, zealots just kill the scvs really fast. T_T;
I don't know about going roach to counter it, it might work out pretty well, I just haven't tried this a lot. Still you will have the same problem as a terran who is going for marauders, which is not being able to leave your base untill you got about 7 roaches, else the speedlings would just eat them alive. :S
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On March 02 2011 13:20 CCow wrote:
We have been facing Geiko quite some times as well, though I can't recall anything more specific. Just know we played and know he is a well mannered dood. :D
Ouch !
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
I just can't make any sense out of this ? You're claiming that you can just wander a stalker out of your base and magicaly kill my probe before it puts down a pylon (at about 4:40, when Z has about 24 speedlings) ?
That is wrong at so many levels I don't even know where to begin :D
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I've tried this build with some friends aswell and i have to admit it's really really strong. When we lost with this build it was because we made some mistakes and not because our enemies defended it properly. So thanks Geiko for sharing a very good build with us.
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On February 25 2011 03:42 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote:
you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this? Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners?
Proxy 4 gate in mirrors for the toss, you can skip the cyber/gas/asm so you'll have your zealots out faster. And pretty much unlike 4 gate, the aggressor usually wins this.
(I know it's a lame counter, but other than mass marine/roach or hellion/ling, this build is pretty unstoppable)
I hope blizzard patches the game so you can't warp in units where your ally has vision and you don't, it'd completly end this plus not affect 1v1 in any shape or form.
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Do you want to proxy 4 gates right off the bat?
If you don't, how do you want to protect proxy-gates against a ton of speedlings?
I know proxy-gates work fine against korean 4gates in 1on1, but here?
It seems really situational to me, since I don't like proxying your first gate AT ALL. T_T;
Fixing the warp-in does not make sense to me either, because it kills way more than this build.
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As the Zerg for this start, I've been going into baneling bust mode when we need to. It works quite smoothly.
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On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz.
As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
Spoken like a silver player with omniscience.
Sorry, but you aren't going to have the ability to patrol the edge of your base without leaving your front extremely vulnerable.
You don't even seem to understand how it works. The speedlings protect the pylon, not a stalker. The P doesn't even make a stalker....
It's also not 10 lings, it's 24.
You seem to think you can warp in two sentries to FF your ramp, AND have a 1 zealot wall, AND have a stalker out that can and will solo a pylon from the high ground. It's pretty obvious to me you haven't actually played against this.
If you get two stalkers, you can't get a sentry. If you're shooting the pylon making, then your wall is going to die. If you shoot the pylon down, and your opponent protects your ramp, then he's going to lose all his workers.
While I haven't lost yet to it (only seen it twice, and I was ZZ both times) I also haven't lost with it. Something like 20-0, even in games where we executed it exceedingly poorly.
The simple fact is that the skill level to stop this far exceeds the skill level to execute it in most cases (except, I'd argue against ZZ, but that is addressed in the OP.)
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United States4130 Posts
On March 03 2011 08:13 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:42 DoubleReed wrote:On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote:
you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this? Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners? Proxy 4 gate in mirrors for the toss, you can skip the cyber/gas/asm so you'll have your zealots out faster. And pretty much unlike 4 gate, the aggressor usually wins this. (I know it's a lame counter, but other than mass marine/roach or hellion/ling, this build is pretty unstoppable) I hope blizzard patches the game so you can't warp in units where your ally has vision and you don't, it'd completly end this plus not affect 1v1 in any shape or form.
Well they did remove Tarsonis Assault where you could warp into the opponent's base without a supporting overlord which is just absurd. If there was a larger crevice between the cliff and the land on the other side this would be perfectly fine.
Really, this is just a map issue where the cliffs of your base are frustratingly hard to get to by land. Honestly, it shouldn't be that easy to warp into your opponent's base.
Similarly, it's really stupid to have backdoor rocks that are like a bajillion years away if you go the long way (basically every single 2v2 backdoor). Seriously, people complain about the Blistering Sands rocks... Arid Wastes is like 1000x worse.
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Seems to me like the re-awakening of this post got a huge new wave of it going again, at least on the EU server.
Eventhough I have to admit to have lost against it quite a few times it was mainly because of some rather huge misplays on our side.
Still, like michaelhasanalias is stating, it is rather depressing how really bad players can get away with this, killing you EZ if you don't react 100% correctly.
Being PT it seems to be possible to go for 2barracks+2gateways into 4gateways before gas. Doing this you can pump out a LOT of zealots and marines before the first warp-in and you can even try to deny the pylons, depending on the map.
The problem here is ofc, that you need REALLY good scouting.
If the Protoss gets his gas running again without you noticing or if they both go ecco mode and you don't see it you will suffer heavily on the protoss part, because you delay you tech imensely.
If your opponents still try to execute the buildwe have been winning this quite comfortably, though. Or at least, as mentioned, when neither of us messed it up big time. Most times we were just able to counter them instantly after defending, and keeping in mind that you ought to have quite some ecco-lead the game is more or less won.
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On March 03 2011 12:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz.
As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it... Spoken like a silver player with omniscience. Sorry, but you aren't going to have the ability to patrol the edge of your base without leaving your front extremely vulnerable. You don't even seem to understand how it works. The speedlings protect the pylon, not a stalker. The P doesn't even make a stalker.... It's also not 10 lings, it's 24. You seem to think you can warp in two sentries to FF your ramp, AND have a 1 zealot wall, AND have a stalker out that can and will solo a pylon from the high ground. It's pretty obvious to me you haven't actually played against this. If you get two stalkers, you can't get a sentry. If you're shooting the pylon making, then your wall is going to die. If you shoot the pylon down, and your opponent protects your ramp, then he's going to lose all his workers. While I haven't lost yet to it (only seen it twice, and I was ZZ both times) I also haven't lost with it. Something like 20-0, even in games where we executed it exceedingly poorly. The simple fact is that the skill level to stop this far exceeds the skill level to execute it in most cases (except, I'd argue against ZZ, but that is addressed in the OP.)
i agree though on point that skill level to stop is far exceed the level to execute it. however, this is stoppabable. but it takes coordination between the opposing team.
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My partner and I had this build happen to us on the ladder the other day and we're kind of at a loss as to how to beat it (z & t we're both high diamond / low masters 1v1 and we occasionally play 2v2 for variety). The issue is that they can warp into either or both bases almost simultaneously and the speedlings can bounce back and forth so fast. I think in our case the zerg has to match the zerg's speedling production while the terran goes marine or maybe even reaper (though i doubt they could get enough reapers out in time) and the speedlings buffer and let the marines do damage. It's tricky to micro and what makes it so hard is that at any point the protoss can just switch focus and warp 4-5 zealots into the person who isn't gettting attacked's base. I disagree that a zerg has to go roach against it because the roaches are so immobile and the other person's base can just get attacked. One person defending has to have a highly mobile force.
It is worth noting that this won't work on a shared base map, at the least it's much easier to defend.
Not unbeatable but it definitely is one of those things where it's much harder to defend than to execute.
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Since terran nerf, they can't really throw anything at you before 5 minutes anyways I KNOW right!? People cried to much and Reapers were made useless 
Read the entire OP so it's all YOUR fault!? :D
Going to watch 3 of the reps, but now I know why I'm losing to this rush by scrub players -_-
It's virtually impossible to stops this early as T, I barely have a few units when 4-5 zeals gets warped inside my base and lings kill me if I move out, if I defend they just kill my ally >_<
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mmm. top level play TZ 10p sling/helion destroys this imo.
the zergs will wipe each other out. all the T needs to be able to do is get 2 rounds of reactor'd helions out. (not hard, from experience they're generally warping in while the 3rd and 4th are producing.) they fry fast. if they warp in on the zerg he only needs a spine or 2 with correct placement/micro.
the only real difficulty comes is if they start warping stalkers into the T base relatively quickly. but even then, helion/scv reem that too. this is all granted you're microing correctly of course.
just my 2 cents.
however. with all the being said. in regards to most levels of play. it is an extremely powerful build and extremely simple to execute. resulting in a lot of loses to inferior players for many teams.
On November 21 2010 12:56 Geiko wrote:
Terrans teching to hellions are not a concern. Zealots in mineral line > hellions killing zealots in 20 hits.
the 3rd and 4th hellions off a reactor tech pop at 5:20ish. zealots tend to clump. hellions roll this. and as a ZT team your zerg ally can easily defend your front. as long as the T is competent enough to pull the scv's away from the zealots that suicide the mineral line you'll only lose a couple seconds mining. meanwhile the hellion numbers continue to climb and you guys are stuck at mass zealot ling...
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On November 22 2010 02:31 Lucius2 wrote:
99% of the so called "top" 2v2 players only get carried by their build/unit combo.
i gave up playing this long time ago
2v2 is extremely intense at high level. and while yes. the meta game is completely different in 2s, as opposed to 1v1, this does mean that "top" teams roll 95% of the community no problem because they actually know the metagame.
it takes a LOT longer in team games to learn the metagame because experience with partners and race combos basically just multiply all the possibilities for how a game can play out. you could be the 2 sickest players out there. but if you two are completely inexperienced playing together and are facing a veteran team who have hundreds of games together, you're going to be at a disadvantage.
BUT. with that being said. at high level. top teams are generally only playing other top teams if they're earning any points whatsoever for their wins. this means that it turns into a battle of execution. which to be honest. i personally find a lot of fun. the games are fast, intense, micro intensive and action packed.
however, VERY TINY mistakes in 2s lead to losses and it can be frustrating. a single simple misclick can spell LOSS. but at times that same reason makes it rewarding as well.
my only 2 beefs with the gametype are.
1. you basically HAVE to have a zerg on your team to compete. if you don't i honestly think you're at a disadvantage right off the bat.
and
2. teams with a protoss and no zerg (P/T and P/P) are extremely vulnerable to very aggressive builds from Z/T, Z/Z and Z/P combos.
to sum up.....you need at least 1 friggin zerg on your team.......and if you're protoss your ally better be zerg or you're screwed to begin with.
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On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
first off, you'd have to go straight marauder to even start attacking it in time.
oh, and by the way. nothing is stopping the protoss from making more than 1 pylon outside your base. good luck being able to kill more than just 1 pylon in time.
and 2nd. if you're making marauders vs this build they're just going to go to the P base. and then you're stuck in your base and CAN NOT aid your ally as they 2v1 him because you decided to marauder.
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react
no they don't. not a chance. not if you're playing vs someone even half competent who knows how to execute the build just a tiny bit correctly.
what's a pylon build time? like 30 in game fast as hell seconds? lol yeeeeeeah.
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As far as I understand the general consensus is that this build is way too easy to execute compared to how easy it is to stop. This puts it in the same spot as the speedling/reaper build that haunted 2v2 ladder just after release. Hence it needs to be fixed. I'm all for cheesing, but when stopping it is harder than executing, then that's just wrong. The counter to cheese should be scouting, and if properly scouted then it should be easily countered, which obviously is not the case here.
I think the easiest fix for this is to adjust the maps, not the mechanics. Here you have several options. The first one is to make it harder to warp in units into the main. Instead of a cliff up to your ramp, you could have water which the pylon power doesn't reach across. Or you could have high-ground followed by low ground (think of how kulas ravine is laid out), which means you can only warp in units on the high ground, and then are stuck up there. This doesn't rule out late game backstabbing as you could have backdoor rocks and to prevent warp-ins across these, you could either make them large enough so that pylon power doesn't reach across, or you could have 2 rocks and half health on each.... so you could only warp in across one of the rocks, and not the other. If you insist on having the main on a cliff, you could still fix this particular cheese by putting the mains far enough apart so that you don't have enough time to get 2 overlords by each players base at the 5 minute mark (have to do some testing to see if this is possible without maps getting way too large). Finally, you could also have a shared base, as already mentioned will greatly help out defending against this.
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics.
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On March 16 2011 23:57 Genesis128 wrote:
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics.
i think the problem is, PARTICULARLY considering what the new additions to the 2v2 map pool were, is that......blizzard just doesn't care .....either that or they think it's a perfectly legit build balance wise.
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On March 17 2011 02:20 Far.771 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 23:57 Genesis128 wrote:
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics. i think the problem is, PARTICULARLY considering what the new additions to the 2v2 map pool were, is that......blizzard just doesn't care .....either that or they think it's a perfectly legit build balance wise.
To be fair the new maps ARE improvements even if they don't prevent this build. It's easier to have a macro game with things like protected side expansions, yet still vulnerable enough to be interesting (i.e. widespread bases with openings for drops, breakable rocks, etc.
I just don't know if Blizzard's data is granular enough to collect statistics on the unbeatable PZ build. I do think in the broader sense, beyond this PZ is probably not absurdly dominant, i.e. in the aggregate it's probably not PZ teams dominating across the board. Most teams I've run into at a reasonably high diamond 2v2 level don't do this korean 4 gate business.
It's probably the case some matchups are lopsided (i.e. PP loses against most..), but of 36 matchups I would think, based on how frequently some matchups are played (i.e. TP, TZ or PZ is very common) these matchups are pretty balanced overall. And with 2v2 there's so much volatility it's hard to really tell... so there's probably no balance issue that juts out, except the small minority of TT vs PP games or whatever. Blizzard definitely puts less time into 1v1 than 2v2, but they probably just can't see the issue with this build in their data.
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EPT
