EPTMy main team is Z/P so I'm always forced to do it vs. Z/P teams otherwise we will lose.
It's like a vicious cycle... which sucks because its a pretty boring build.
[D] Unbeatable 2v2 Build ? (PZ) - Page 15
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
My main team is Z/P so I'm always forced to do it vs. Z/P teams otherwise we will lose. It's like a vicious cycle... which sucks because its a pretty boring build. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On April 15 2011 03:14 Afterstar wrote: This strategy is too strong,especially against PT,PZ,TZ,PP. Easy to execute,yet so hard to defend and even if you defend,you are on even grounds with your opponents.So PZ gets a free shot for an easy win and if it doesn't work,it's a normal game;because there is just not enough time to prepare a good counter attack,before they also have a good army. Below in the pictures we can see that you can have a pylon and an overlord vision out of range of the marines,so a Terran needs to get a Maurauder if he wants to shoot down the pylon from inside his base.There is enough room to warp in 4 zealots at one time,if there are no units there to block the space.The zerglings defend the pylons while they warp in,so slow moving units such as marines or zealots have no chance moving out to kill it from outside.If you try to kill it from inside your base,they can just put one or two more pylons further away,in which case,there is no time to kill them all before a warp in. + Show Spoiler + You have to, both you and your ally play flawlessly and ten times better than your opponents to be able to defend,which is absurb imo.Also if you prepare for it and it doesn't come,you will be way behind in eco,so it's a win-win situation for PZ. How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits. | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On April 15 2011 06:00 Mastermind wrote: How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits. Theorycrafting is theory. My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level) If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings. Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period. This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning) | ||
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Geiko
France1942 Posts
However it is 10 pool and gas before rax so you should see it coming and change your game plan. | ||
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-miDnight-
Taiwan455 Posts
I guess the only chance is they give up a base all together and hold a single base then tech up to banshee/voidray/DT and just to kill you. | ||
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Goose-
Belgium65 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
speed lings hellion is 20x better | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 16 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win. speed lings hellion is 20x better Yea pretty much this. The design of nearly all 2v2 maps precludes mutual defense from being a possibility against most double early harass, since your ramp works against you if you try to help (against a competent team). On April 15 2011 11:29 PR4Y wrote: Theorycrafting is theory. My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level) If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings. Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period. This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning) Theorycrafting is theory... and then you are plat. Build is not completely OP, your opponents are just too bad to defend against it. And actually, the hellions can kill your zealots off. I'm guessing your opponents just aren't maximizing hellion move dps. TZ doesn't really have as much difficulty holding this off compared to certain other compositions, mainly because TZ is super strong on most maps. Think of it this way - zerg can hold off double 10 pool speed. If they go for the krn 5 gate, it is very obvious, and as a zerg you just have to hold, buy time, and bleed the opposing armies as much as possible, let terran quickly have too much stuff for opponents to deal with. especially, if TZ spawns on left side of Scorched with T on top position, you will have a difficult time, because if I recall correctly at that position you can actually wall with depot+rax, so your reactor can't be harassed by anything except by zealots that are warping in, and all you have to do is spot the warp in, then position your hellions so that they shoot in a line that maximizes overall dps on the zealots. Furthermore, the hellion build is usually followed by starport into banshee immediately upon factory completion, while continuing hellion production, so you will have further issues to deal with, though personally I might just go double factory 1 tech lab blue flame + 1 reactor if I saw this. This build is also not particularly micro/multitasking intensive, mostly because you've got a super slow unit and a super fast unit. TZ builds are generally more micro/multitask intensive, if you want builds that are like that  p.s. 10pool speed + 8rax reaper proxy will throw a bone in your plans | ||
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YourMom
Romania565 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On April 16 2011 06:00 YourMom wrote: As a protoss I just build gateways and pylons in the most used locations of this strat. So they can't warp in shit in mah base. You dont even need to try and guess. Wiat ill you see the pylon going up, and buid your next building in the warp in zone. Since your both of your ecos will be wrecking theres, you can just throw up a forge for the first pylon block, and completely wall off. Obviously T has no issue holding this agressiong at their wall with 3/4 scv on autorepaur and a few rines. The rest of the rines can make sure no warp ins occur, and 1 rauder can kill any pylons. PT should hold this with a complete wall in and cannons as long as you make a pylon part of the initial wall. Youll lose a building and a pylon, but your eco will crush theirs so it doesnt matter. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On April 15 2011 11:29 PR4Y wrote: Theorycrafting is theory. My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level) If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings. Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period. This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning) umm what? 24lings + 5 zealots loses to 24 lings + 4 helions. That isnt theorycraft, that is common sense. The fact that you are in platinum league 2v2 tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about. If it was unstoppable like you suggest than you would be in masters league like I am. | ||
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GoodNewsJim
United States122 Posts
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Geiko
France1942 Posts
On April 16 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win. speed lings hellion is 20x better Pretty much this. I <3 Blue posts, whenever they talk about things I know, they are always spot on so I'm pretty much sure I can trust them for the things I don't know  (edit : I also love all of EtheralDeath's post on 2v2, if you guys are looking for advice on how to beat this strat, or just how to play in 2vs2, just read his posts) I would just add that when turtling hard core as PT, you're totaly giving up scouting and map control. As terran it's a good idea to throw a scan sometime before 5min to make sure they haven't just cancelled the gates and expanded when they see your forge/bunker. As protoss, in a PP team, you pretty much have to guess (but who plays PP right ?) Also, lol to the guy a couple posts above who says he can take out proxy pylons with one marauder. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:28 Geiko wrote: Pretty much this. I <3 Blue posts, whenever they talk about things I know, they are always spot on so I'm pretty much sure I can trust them for the things I don't know (edit : I also love all of EtheralDeath's post on 2v2, if you guys are looking for advice on how to beat this strat, or just how to play in 2vs2, just read his posts) I would just add that when turtling hard core as PT, you're totaly giving up scouting and map control. As terran it's a good idea to throw a scan sometime before 5min to make sure they haven't just cancelled the gates and expanded when they see your forge/bunker. As protoss, in a PP team, you pretty much have to guess (but who plays PP right ?) Also, lol to the guy a couple posts above who says he can take out proxy pylons with one marauder. ^^ <3 | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings. If zerglings get a surround then the opponent must have weaker micro skills than you. A hellion in a base is very strong, and 4 is even worse. I am also curious how the zerglings got into the base, unless the warped in zealots broke down the terran wall before the hellions got them. My personal opinion is that this build can be countered by me and my allies plan (Sort of, and not 100% sure). I always 10 pool, which gives me about a 5 second advantage to this build. I also get my queen up faster (I have almost 300 minerals when pool pops), and have 6 zerglings up immediately. This build means you will have a queen starting to build at about 3:05 and 4 zerglings popping out. In other words, if I rush you and queue to your base, you will have a big problem, as I will have earlier/faster production for a while. Of course, once zergling speed kicks in I will have a tech disadvantage, but in the mean time... Btw, my ally then rushes for void rays, which if we made it to that stage would be a terrifying thing for you, even with a few stalkers. My zerglings can also be simply used for map control for a while: I will be able to destroy those pylons, especially if my ally sends one or more units to help. If I have a terran ally, he will just snipe those overlords. On the other hand, I'd like to say that it's an awesome, well thought strategy. If surprised, your opponent will have a hard time beating it. On the other hand, if the build gets abused by too many players, the 2vs2 game will shift and EVERYONE will start 6/7/9/10 pooling to counter this. optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win. speed lings hellion is 20x better Do you tech up then? Void rays would totally own this build, so would dt and banshee (If cloaked even worse). | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On April 17 2011 02:05 DarkCore wrote: Do you tech up then? Void rays would totally own this build, so would dt and banshee (If cloaked even worse). Eh... you need to check your timings. This rush hits @ 5:20ish... and if I spot a voidray rush or DT or any other tech heavy cheese, I just snipe the tech structures and laugh all the way to the victory. Usually with early Voidray rushes, protoss gets a zealot and stalker / MAYBE sentry, and thats it. 5 zealots and 24 speedlings in that base will destroy your economy and / or tech before your first void is anywhere NEAR completion. And as far as cloaked banshee goes, I've never gone up against this, but I have gone up against a teching terran multiple times, and they usually leave all their marines by the wall... and when my initial zealots start running towards their marines, they are trapped against their own wall. If they lower the wall to try and get away, the speedlings run in and take care of everything else. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
double minline bunkers and everything placed so that all buildings are covered by bunkers or minline which is hard because terran buildings with addons are large as hell extended naturally into late-game turtle so elegant that it was almost a shame to see three hundred supply zerg knock them down oh man in sc2 i can add a planetary fortress to the mix time to go be invincible | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 17 2011 02:43 EmeraldSparks wrote: at brood war i was the absolute best at terran sim city double minline bunkers and everything placed so that all buildings are covered by bunkers or minline which is hard because terran buildings with addons are large as hell extended naturally into late-game turtle so elegant that it was almost a shame to see three hundred supply zerg knock them down oh man in sc2 i can add a planetary fortress to the mix time to go be invincible I don't get the point of this. If you turtle too hard to lose via other means. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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