Yes, I have some how accumulated 1850 points by cheesing. (there are a few games where i actually try to macro up).
This discussion is to help players (from all skill level) to be able to defend against Random Cheese, which as we know is the most delicious type of cheese.
Few tips that I've came up with so far.
Six pool is very effective against protoss players that scout at 9 on all 4 player maps. (right after they use that probe to build a pylon).
Getting early marauders with concussive shells is a great way to start off a game against a protoss player (with little damage to economy)
Cheesing Terran is extremely hard. They're like the anti-cheese race. Don't do it. UNLESS it is a 12 drone rush. It was flawlessly against terran players. Funny stuff.
7RR is just bad. It might work on protoss but that's about it.
anything else? Also, as random player, I think I know a lot more about balance than most players... Although cheesing kind of lowers my credibility.
EDIT: DUE TO POPULAR REQUESTS, I WILL START UPLOADING A FEW OF MY REPLAYS.
TvP Early Marauder
ZvT 12 Drone
Most of these are cliched cheese, I didn't save most my other replays, i'll upload them again when I do it again. -Stay Moist
On November 20 2010 09:11 Competent wrote: How do you live with yourself.
LOL.
Err, I find cheesing to be the bane of my existence on 4 player maps. I'm a protoss so seeing a stream of zerglings at my ramp right after i see his base is just lol.
On November 20 2010 09:11 Competent wrote: How do you live with yourself.
It's actually quite easy. By putting on a cloak of internet tough guy by cheesing and drowning my emotional pains by making other starcraft players feel terrible because they've just been cheesed, I can hide the fact that I'm actually a lonely little Asian boy seeking attention because I receive none from my parents.
Do you feel like spending those games cheesing has been a waste of time? Do you think you could be a better player if you would have spent them using real builds?
How do you defend against a cannon rush in your mineral lines? The normal ones are easy to hold off but I've had trouble the few times I've encountered this.
On November 20 2010 09:17 ForTheDr3am wrote: Which cheeses do you find the most effective?
Definately the marauder+concussive early game push against protoss players. It's not difficult to defend against, if the protoss player has good micro... which for some reason I don't see too often...
Bunker rush is also quite hilarious if pulled off successfully. (Protip for bunker rushes, place the bunker in a position where it's either touching the zerg's hatchery, minerals, or a wall. That way zerglings can't get a surround)
On November 20 2010 09:24 K3Nyy wrote: How do you defend against a cannon rush in your mineral lines? The normal ones are easy to hold off but I've had trouble the few times I've encountered this.
Define normal and define cannon rush in your mineral lines.
By normal, if you mean building cannons outside the base then the probe will move inside the base to build cannons, then all you have to do is just not let the probe in your base. (wall off with workers or something) having a lack of 3-4 workers is a lot better than having 3-4 cannons in your base.
For cannon rushing into mineral lines? I don't even know how that's possible. If you see a probe building a pylon in your base, chase the probe around with one worker, while sending some wokers to kill the pylon.
Also, by the time of a cannon rush, if you're playing terran, you should already have a barrack out. Just build a bunker within the cannons range while the cannon is being produced. It takes 40 seconds to produce a cannon and 35 seconds to produce a bunker.
marines in bunker have 6 range. Cannons have 7 range, a neglegible difference, and will "usually" stop a cannon rush while you tech to marauders.
On November 20 2010 09:24 justle wrote: Do you feel like spending those games cheesing has been a waste of time? Do you think you could be a better player if you would have spent them using real builds?
In perspective, StarCraft 2 is a waste of time. School is a waste of time. Work is a waste of time. Attracting mates is a waste of time.
So, what makes something not a waste of time? The answer to that question is very philisophical, but i've' came to the conclusion that as long as you're reaping rewards from it, then it no longer is a waste of time.
If I enjoy cheesing as much as someone who macros up, why shouldn't I just cheese? Maybe I'm not as "good" as the other player. Big deal, it's all about reaping the rewards in the aftermath. We both end up having same ladder points, we both probably have same tournament records, and we both probably enjoy the game.
On November 20 2010 09:24 justle wrote: Do you feel like spending those games cheesing has been a waste of time? Do you think you could be a better player if you would have spent them using real builds?
In perspective, StarCraft 2 is a waste of time. School is a waste of time. Work is a waste of time. Attracting mates is a waste of time.
So, what makes something not a waste of time? The answer to that question is very philisophical, but i've' came to the conclusion that as long as you're reaping rewards from it, then it no longer is a waste of time.
If I enjoy cheesing as much as someone who macros up, why shouldn't I just cheese? Maybe I'm not as "good" as the other player. Big deal, it's all about reaping the rewards in the aftermath. We both end up having same ladder points, we both probably have same tournament records, and we both probably enjoy the game.
No no by winning an equal amount of games at the same level, you are by definition as good.
On November 20 2010 09:38 kNyTTyM wrote: Do you see your play hitting a roadblock any time soon? If so how are you going to work around that since the essence of cheese is surprise?
Imo there is no roadblock. I think many popular cheeses are underused in the GSL and other big tournies. Maybe because of the gamble factor but still every good player should have a couple of cheeses in their arsenal. You'd be surprised how easily some 2.1-2.2k players I have faced fall apart vs a korean 4wg, 5 stalker or rine/scv rush vs 1gate fe.
People always end up cutting edges in their builds just to get that minor heads up on their opponent in the macro game. Cheesers will always thrive on that, and it's on a whole other level in sc2 than bw.
On November 20 2010 09:38 kNyTTyM wrote: Do you see your play hitting a roadblock any time soon? If so how are you going to work around that since the essence of cheese is surprise?
The great thing about cheese is that both good players and bad players are prone to it. I'd assume that i'll eventually start hitting a road block (maybe around 2000 pts) because that's when people have more than 500 games. With the lack of diamond random cheesers, not many players have had the TRUE full experience of being cheesed.
It's easy to defend against a six pool if you know your opponent is zerg, because most protoss players will pop up two early gateways anyway. However, if you pop up two early gateways instead of 1 gateway one cybernetic core, you'll be prone to being kited by marines.
It's not really my skill of cheese that's allowing me to win. It's more like the opponent doesn't know how to start off his build. .
On November 20 2010 09:38 MeteorMash wrote: Keep it up! Everyone expects us random players to cheese so I get away with fast expos all the time!
no problem. i don't like fast expanding with random because by that time, the opponent will already scout what you're doing.
Can you still pull wins from someone who knows your play style? Like, I'm a standard player and do much better in 1v1's than my housemate buddy in general, but he seems to have a better read on the style of games I play and therefore wins more often between just us. I'd imagine because cheese is way more one-dimensional, you'd have an even harder time with that? I guess I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on how suitable your cheeses would be for tournaments, or is it purely a laddering strategy?
On November 20 2010 09:43 dukethegold wrote: What's your overall win rate?
around 55%. But isn't the point of the BattleNet MMR supposed to keep you around that win ratio? If you keep winning, you'll just player harder opponents. And by harder, i mean players with more points, which means they have more games played, which means that they're more experienced with dealing with cheese.
On November 20 2010 09:47 Griffith` wrote: What do you do against another random race?
Have you ever seen a game where both players six pool? Or when both players go all in 7rr? How about when both players cannon rush. Because I have. In fact, i've experienced it... several times.
It's actually not that many times i've experienced it. I probably encounter a random player for every 25 games i play....
On November 20 2010 09:49 smallerk wrote: Do you consider cheesing a waste of time, or do you have fun doing it?
On November 20 2010 09:49 Gemini_19 wrote: Can you make more than 20 workers in a single game?
yes, it's called cannon rushing. dual planetary fortress rush....
don't ask me how it works. i've had very little success with it...
but like this one time, a protoss player decide to attack me without scouting first. His army was distanced away from his base... and when he reached my base there was nothing there besides a few supply, and an engineering bay.
then i landed my command center as his choke to prevent his units from coming in while landing the other command center next to his nexus.
I myself am a 2.3k diamond random player, and I must say that if you have good micro and you cheese every game, you'll pull off a good record. I'm not saying I cheese every game, but occasionally I will, and to be honest I rarely lose when I do. Cheesing 100% of the time gets boring though, so I don't do it. If anything, cheesing is even more effective at higher levels on the ladder because people suspect it less and less. However... everyone's always a bit suspicious of a random player...
Sigh... how I hate cheese. Honestly, I think most randoms do cheese. It seems every time I play on ladder people expect me to cheese (I'm random).
I would say your understanding of other races is supremely limited compared to that of other random users, as a result of your cheesing. Lets face it, cheesing is generally easier. Although I have NEVER cheesed on ladder, I do it all the time in custom games in order to learn the timings and such. I almost never lose when I cheese.
What slays me is how easy it is too cheese. I'm not very good at sc1, as I barely played it. But it seems cheese was harder in that game. 6 pools are volatile openings (even with good scouting, depending on the map) in 2 match ups and they often don't result in an insta-loss if the games progress (due to probe/drone kills). The ratio of difficulty to cheese and difficulty to defend it is greatly askew. This is why you see 1850 pt diamond users that only cheese (not to discredit you, you'd probably kick my ass in any form of a game, just an example).
In the end, to each their own. My personal opinions is cheese is a relatively skill-less (skillless?) way of winning and feels cheap and dirty to me. But then, who doesn't like winning. I don't enjoy cheesing, and I despise getting cheesed. But if you enjoy, power to ya. Be warned, we run into each other on ladder, I get cheesed, I often BM ( getting better though).
I do think it's cool you're trying to help people defend the cheese though, props.
My 2 cents on defending cheese. General points: SCOUT- This is vital, often times a scout will determine whether or not you do quick wall, earlier pool, double gate/rax. I've lost many a game to 6 pools that would've been crushed had I scouted on 9 and put pool on 10-12 as opposed to my normal econ based 14/15 pool.
Protect your ramp, protect your probes- if at all possible run your probes in circles until you can get an attacking units out. If you must engage (SCV all in etc) I like to do it at my ramp. it decreased surface area he can attack from, as in open space he'll probably have the advantage.
Don't be super passive- Ok, so you've survived his first attack... now what? Many times I've remained passive and expected another attack to come, turns out he made a whole round of drones or something like that and now has the econ lead. don't be afraid to be aggressive after defending, you don't necessarily have the lead. I find this happens to me most often when getting 6 pooled as protoss. I double gate upon seeing 6 pool, hold off with some probe losses, then suddenly have 3 zealots. I think it is almost always a wise move to be counter aggressive.
Just some thoughts, I might be wrong. Let me know.
PvP scouting your base 9/10 times and that 1 time you are distracted irl or something and forget...there is a cannon rush coming / korean warp gate and you just want to rip your face off and kill your opponent with your bare hands... cheese is fun!
On November 20 2010 10:48 Reignyo wrote: can you give us a list of cheeses you use?
yes, please, would love a follow up of your most favorite cheeses, ala
as zerg, my favorite cheese against zerg is... as zerg, my favorite cheese against terran is... as zerg, my favorite cheese against protoss is...
as protoss, my favorite cheese against protoss is... as protoss, my favorite cheese against terran is... as protoss, my favorite cheese against zerg is...
as terran, my favorite cheese against protoss is... as terran, my favorite cheese against terran is... as terran, my favorite cheese against zerg is...
it may be a bit of writing on your part, but it would be great information for those, like myself, who wonder what Random cheesers are most likely to do
Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
As a casual cheeser, the best part about cheesing is when the guy BM's. Then i can start spamming LoLuMaD? while my zerglings own their probes. if they guy says gg after i cheese i usually apologize for cheesing....
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
I am also a random player, 1800 diamond. I think that cheesing terran is almost impossible, cheesing zerg is difficult, and cheesing protoss is simple with every race.
A protoss player is so vulnerable to cheese that usually he tends to forget about early FE because of that.
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceeed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
Well, I get the feeling you might have had the luxury of avoiding getting 6 pooled by someone who knows how to micro his lings. Obviously if he'd run straight into my mineral line or battle my probes head on he's going to lose, but smart zergs will snipe stray probes, deny mining time by sniping pylons/wall structures at the same time delaying your tech/production and just generally keeping their lings alive for a ridiculous amount of time.
Tbh I've never had any big troubles vs 6pool but when the zerg knows what he's doing AND manages to get lings inside of my base it's extremely hard to deal with.
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceeed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
Well, I get the feeling you might have had the luxury of avoiding getting 6 pooled by someone who knows how to micro his lings. Obviously if he'd run straight into my mineral line or battle my probes head on he's going to lose, but smart zergs will snipe stray probes, deny mining time by sniping pylons/wall structures at the same time delaying your tech/production and just generally keeping their lings alive for a ridiculous amount of time.
Tbh I've never had any big troubles vs 6pool but when the zerg knows what he's doing AND manages to get lings inside of my base it's extremely hard to deal with.
Well then why isn't 6 pool the standard strategy for winning at high levels if you think it is so unbeatable, even if you suspect it?
That almost sounds like you have a hard time against it, so you think that everyone must.
If it is scoutable, or if you suspect a strat in a best of 3 hardly ever is it going to work twice. I highly doubt many pros have died to two 6 pools in a row.
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceeed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
Well, I get the feeling you might have had the luxury of avoiding getting 6 pooled by someone who knows how to micro his lings. Obviously if he'd run straight into my mineral line or battle my probes head on he's going to lose, but smart zergs will snipe stray probes, deny mining time by sniping pylons/wall structures at the same time delaying your tech/production and just generally keeping their lings alive for a ridiculous amount of time.
Tbh I've never had any big troubles vs 6pool but when the zerg knows what he's doing AND manages to get lings inside of my base it's extremely hard to deal with.
Well then why isn't 6 pool the standard strategy for winning at high levels if you think it is so unbeatable, even if you suspect it?
That almost sounds like you have a hard time against it, so you think that everyone must.
If it is scoutable, or if you suspect a strat in a best of 3 hardly ever is it going to work twice. I highly doubt many pros have died to two 6 pools in a row.
6 pool is a tossup. He might scout you immediately and he might be heading for a build that hard counters it. Most cheeses are gambles to some extent. I'm 1900 diamond which is mediocre at best at this point and 90% of the 6pools I have faced have been quite easy to deal with but when they actually micro their lings it's hard. If they do it well, I have problems dealing with it. I've seen much better players losing to 6pool as well but it isn't that widely used for some reason. I think by time it'll be much the same as in bw with (4)6pools sprinkled in every now and then in all matchups. :D
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceeed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
Well, I get the feeling you might have had the luxury of avoiding getting 6 pooled by someone who knows how to micro his lings. Obviously if he'd run straight into my mineral line or battle my probes head on he's going to lose, but smart zergs will snipe stray probes, deny mining time by sniping pylons/wall structures at the same time delaying your tech/production and just generally keeping their lings alive for a ridiculous amount of time.
Tbh I've never had any big troubles vs 6pool but when the zerg knows what he's doing AND manages to get lings inside of my base it's extremely hard to deal with.
Well then why isn't 6 pool the standard strategy for winning at high levels if you think it is so unbeatable, even if you suspect it?
That almost sounds like you have a hard time against it, so you think that everyone must.
If it is scoutable, or if you suspect a strat in a best of 3 hardly ever is it going to work twice. I highly doubt many pros have died to two 6 pools in a row.
6 pool is a tossup. He might scout you immediately and he might be heading for a build that hard counters it. Most cheeses are gambles to some extent. I'm 1900 diamond which is mediocre at best at this point and 90% of the 6pools I have faced have been quite easy to deal with but when they actually micro their lings it's hard. If they do it well, I have problems dealing with it. I've seen much better players losing to 6pool as well but it isn't that widely used for some reason. I think by time it'll be much the same as in bw with (4)6pools sprinkled in every now and then in all matchups. :D
It seems we have been agreeing this whole time (I am an 1800 diamond zerg) but our only divergence has been the efficacy of cheese in a Bo3, and I think if you are suspecting it you are cool. It's not hard to stop, you just have to be prepared.
On November 20 2010 11:58 JBrown08 wrote: Do you participate in tournaments? In my heart I would like to believe that cheese only works once in a BO3, and thats why pro's only practice a few cheese strats.
In fact I would put out that you are probably a wimp using cheese on ladder with random players
(at least I hope, since I hate cheese, and by extension maybe I even hate you)
Oh bo3 psychology. Isn't that the beauty of starcraft?
Imagine this; you're in a gsl qualifier playing some random nerd and he 6 pools you the first game. What's your thought process right then?
"Omfg he fucking 6 pooled me the first game. Fuck fuck fuck I'm down one game. Ok calm down I can do this next up lost temple. I can beat this fucking cheeser. Now there's no way in hell he's going to pull that shit twice in a row? He must know I'm expecting it? Or does he know I know he knows I'm expecting it? God dammit I'm putting down a second gate. But what if he knows I know he knows I know he knows I'm expecting it, and he puts down a freaking 14hatch? Fuck he's in the last position I'm playing blind here vs this kid and what if h- ... FUUUUUUUUUU 6 lings coming up my ramp."
Or you aren't retarded in a Bo3 and scout earlier because of the cheese...or at least thats what I do in a tourny....just a thought.
So you are somehow able to spot a 6 pool in time 100% of the times pvz on a 4 player map?
lmk
Sorry, I might of been a little harsh Im not a protoss player (Im a zerg), and when I scout a 4 player map and eventually find a 6 pool I laugh...and then proceeed to defend with my drones and win.
Now seeing as I never really 6 pool, I wouldn't know what the correct response as toss should be; however that being said, if my drones that don't regenerate sheilds can hold it off, why can't your probes?
Well, I get the feeling you might have had the luxury of avoiding getting 6 pooled by someone who knows how to micro his lings. Obviously if he'd run straight into my mineral line or battle my probes head on he's going to lose, but smart zergs will snipe stray probes, deny mining time by sniping pylons/wall structures at the same time delaying your tech/production and just generally keeping their lings alive for a ridiculous amount of time.
Tbh I've never had any big troubles vs 6pool but when the zerg knows what he's doing AND manages to get lings inside of my base it's extremely hard to deal with.
Well then why isn't 6 pool the standard strategy for winning at high levels if you think it is so unbeatable, even if you suspect it?
That almost sounds like you have a hard time against it, so you think that everyone must.
If it is scoutable, or if you suspect a strat in a best of 3 hardly ever is it going to work twice. I highly doubt many pros have died to two 6 pools in a row.
6 pool is a tossup. He might scout you immediately and he might be heading for a build that hard counters it. Most cheeses are gambles to some extent. I'm 1900 diamond which is mediocre at best at this point and 90% of the 6pools I have faced have been quite easy to deal with but when they actually micro their lings it's hard. If they do it well, I have problems dealing with it. I've seen much better players losing to 6pool as well but it isn't that widely used for some reason. I think by time it'll be much the same as in bw with (4)6pools sprinkled in every now and then in all matchups. :D
It seems we have been agreeing this whole time (I am an 1800 diamond zerg) but our only divergence has been the efficacy of cheese in a Bo3, and I think if you are suspecting it you are cool. It's not hard to stop, you just have to be prepared.
Well I disagree, but that might have something to do with the fact that we play different races and that europeans are notorious for cheesing you and then flaming you in polish. I noticed a huge shift around 1700-1800 though where cheeses became extremely common, only suddenly they were well executed.
I've tried and tried for several hours/days! I've tried to cannon rush them, i've tried to fly to an island and build battlecrusiers, I've tried with banshees, i've tried to build up a big bio-ball while guarding my base with bunkers and all that stuff, but I always get overrun!
I haven't been cheesing more just tricking the opponent into thinking that I will be fast-expanding. My opponent then takes his time thinking im safe etc etc.
I then show up at his base with Zerg early aggression; however when I do get my lings inside his base be it T or P. I seem to lose what I should focus.
So when I am in there base and have dealt to his mini army and am streaming zergs into his base should I focus on supply units i.e. pylons or depots or worker harass and move when they try attack ?
I just know that I have given 3-4 games away that I had in the bagg just didn't do the right thing? Please tell me what is the best strat in this situation?
So when this fails I had expanded during this phase; if tries push I can hold just if he expands he takes a clear lead. Then pushes later and ROFLstomps me QQ.
Hifriend is such a troll. The guy cracks me up. Makes a topic a long time ago about how he's done, everything is cheese at 1600 diamond and higher.
Classic. Now he thinks he's the cheese expert. The best part? In my last 20-30 solo games, 2 have been cheese. The same person did both. A 2.5k total games protoss that ONLY cheeses. He lost easily, as he had no clue how to play.
Hifriend, you're just an idiot. Cheese is less common the higher up you go, as people can stop it easier, or react to it better. People opt for macro games, at least an expansion, because the age of 1 base all in is at least slowing down.
The worst part of this thread is the losers who are begging to learn new cheese strategies because they can't micro or macro and want to be able to say 'I'M 1800 DIAMOND!!!'
Best way to cheese? Forget it and move on to the next game. Vs random, always wall faster than normal and scout earlier than normal. Don't listen to idiots like hifriend who act as if they know EVERYTHING about the ladder because of the slim section of people he plays.
On November 20 2010 23:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: Hifriend is such a troll. The guy cracks me up. Makes a topic a long time ago about how he's done, everything is cheese at 1600 diamond and higher.
Classic. Now he thinks he's the cheese expert. The best part? In my last 20-30 solo games, 2 have been cheese. The same person did both. A 2.5k total games protoss that ONLY cheeses. He lost easily, as he had no clue how to play.
Hifriend, you're just an idiot. Cheese is less common the higher up you go, as people can stop it easier, or react to it better. People opt for macro games, at least an expansion, because the age of 1 base all in is at least slowing down.
The worst part of this thread is the losers who are begging to learn new cheese strategies because they can't micro or macro and want to be able to say 'I'M 1800 DIAMOND!!!'
Best way to cheese? Forget it and move on to the next game. Vs random, always wall faster than normal and scout earlier than normal. Don't listen to idiots like hifriend who act as if they know EVERYTHING about the ladder because of the slim section of people he plays.
Lol, I don't understand what you're getting at? I mean I know for a fact I face k4wg or 5 stalker approximately 2/3s of my PvP's and 7roach/6pool/5roach about half of my pvz's. I'm sorry we don't share the same experience of the ladder I guess? I can easily conclude that these are viable strategies not only from the fact that they exist at 1900, but also from my own experience of utilizing them.
And fyi you should try cheesing and see what it's like. I'm sure you'll be positively surprised.
On November 20 2010 11:51 Eknoid4 wrote: 1850 isn't high anymore just so you know. It's like upper medium.
I prefer to think of it as low high
Anyway, being cheesed by a random player on a 4 player map is extremely annoying. However, you can always do something to prevent it. As Protoss, I always build my wall as if I'm facing Zerg when I get a random opponent. That wall is fine against Toss cheese as well and the slight disadvantage against Terran is usually overcome by the fact that random players are seldom as good at their 3 races as those who play exclusively 1 (in my experience).
On another note, I always enjoy cheesing someone who is random simply because I hate not knowing what my opponent is when planning my first couple buildings
People whining about cheese is ridiculous. Fruitdealer 6 pooled in GSL 1 and won. CheckPrime 6 pooled in GSL 2 and lost.
As Spunky put it in the interview during the OGS/LIQUID house walkthrough- sometimes cheeseing in a game 1 (tourney setting obv) is a good strategy, because it throws your opponent off his game going into phase 2. Cheese is no judgement of skill, maybe of character.
Get over the cheese hate- when you're good enough, you'll be beaming every time you scout a 6 pool or 7RR. If you know how to execute them/beat them, they're free wins every time.
I have not lost to a 7 roach rush in any of the 15 or so ladder games I've seen it on. Scouting FTW
I have more fun beating cheesers with nice micro and to draw out a long macro game to let them see how bad they truly are.
Any, friend, its because you play protoss. Every PvP is cheesy to get done quick. PvZ is broken so what else can ya expect. 7RR isn't cheese, it's a standard opening that allows transition.
You definition of cheese is something you don't think is standard, or is hard for you to beat. I have a protoss friend who doesn't play anymore because he can't forge FE vs zerg anymore. He, like you, refuses to adapt and got seduced by the dart art of trying to win fast.
That's why every pro says NA server is different from the rest, because clowns like you try to just get wins, not to learn and get better.
On November 21 2010 00:51 DNB wrote: What's with all the hate? Cheese is still a strategy.
I'm a random player myself too, but not a cheeser. But I still don't get it why people hate them.
Uhh, cause 5min games arent really fun to play? I dont know anyone who thinks they are. Afterall i am playing this game to entertain myself, so yea.
I sometimes think that i should cheese, but whenever i do cheese it just feel boring, and it feel like i'm not getting better at the game. How hard are 6 pools or super early cloaked banshees to pull off? Very easy, so why do them? My goal is to get better, not to win. Well i guess i want to win aswell, but not at the cost of never getting better or see myself improving.
On November 21 2010 00:54 iAmJeffReY wrote: I have more fun beating cheesers with nice micro and to draw out a long macro game to let them see how bad they truly are.
Any, friend, its because you play protoss. Every PvP is cheesy to get done quick. PvZ is broken so what else can ya expect. 7RR isn't cheese, it's a standard opening that allows transition.
You definition of cheese is something you don't think is standard, or is hard for you to beat. I have a protoss friend who doesn't play anymore because he can't forge FE vs zerg anymore. He, like you, refuses to adapt and got seduced by the dart art of trying to win fast.
That's why every pro says NA server is different from the rest, because clowns like you try to just get wins, not to learn and get better.
I don't play on the NA server though. I know 7roach isn't considered cheese by a lot of people because it's somewhat effective despite getting scouted and has good followups, but I have had zergs bring all their drones with a 7roach + 2 reinforced to try and end the game right there and then. :O Tbh I just mix in cheese with my play because they are relatively easy wins and so by definition extremely viable builds for the purpose (which is laddering).
To anyone who's having problem dealing with cheese I can highly recommend learning a couple of cheeses of your own, because cheesing will dramatically improve you micro by tenfolds. You're basically putting yourself in a situation in those games where you're going to have to get the maximum potential out of only a couple of units and you're relying on micro to get the win. Excellent practice, despite common belief.
What type of cheese do you do in TvT.... I've been experimentning some with 2+ rax stim marauder, but it doesn't seems to work quite perfect... It defenitely works against someone who tries to go fast banshee, and there might be some timing windows where I find it to work somewhat good but thats about it.
On November 21 2010 01:00 Snuggles wrote: How BM do cheesers get when they lose? Or do they leave the game before their opponent can say anything?
I don't cheese that often but when I do (and it fails) I always congratulate my opponent. It takes very good micro and decision making to beat a good PvP cheese so I think grats are in order
What do you do as terran when the protoss goes DT or void rays as fast as possible? I have trouble distinguishing whether I'm being cheesed or if he's just saving up for a nexus, especially since you have limited scan and need to respond ASAP. Is the answer always having an scv/unit ready to check his natural?
assuming he's hidden his tech that is.
Another one I have trouble with is if I scout the twilight council but nothing else, I don't know if he's going for blink stalker cheese or teching to DT's. When I scout the council I usually respond by putting turrets around my perimeter to kill observers before the stalkers can blink, and so I can see DT's.
On November 21 2010 00:51 DNB wrote: What's with all the hate? Cheese is still a strategy.
I'm a random player myself too, but not a cheeser. But I still don't get it why people hate them.
Uhh, cause 5min games arent really fun to play? I dont know anyone who thinks they are. Afterall i am playing this game to entertain myself, so yea.
I sometimes think that i should cheese, but whenever i do cheese it just feel boring, and it feel like i'm not getting better at the game. How hard are 6 pools or super early cloaked banshees to pull off? Very easy, so why do them? My goal is to get better, not to win. Well i guess i want to win aswell, but not at the cost of never getting better or see myself improving.
What makes you think cheesers are not getting better? Some cheeses can be pretty darn deadly when executed well.
I'm finding very hard to stop 6pools on 4 players maps when I scout zerg late (probe scouts on 9 but maybe I missed the overlord feint or cross spawns). Any suggestions?
Okay so, I get cheesed by protoss all the fucking time... Im a terran...
So after my 10 depot i scout, If i see a protoss base empty then i know theres like 2 gateways warping in at my main. How can I stop this. I usually find it just when I am getting my rax up, Even if i Focus Fire Pylons with marine and like 5 scv's I cant stop it. This shit annoys the hell out of me, and I so no way to stop it unless like around 8 supply I send and SCV around my base.
P.S. He put the pylon for his gates against a wall so i could get no surround :-//
@Bonkerz If u face this type of cheese a lot u should make it a habbit to scout your base early. You only need 2 scv's to do it.
At 8(almost 9) supply send one scv to scout half of the base and then build the depot at your ramp.This scv will proceed to scout your opponents base after the depot is done. At 11 supply send a second scv to scout the rest of your base and then build the barracks at your ramp. If you find a probe and a proxy pylon in your base,send 1 scv after the probe and 3 scv's to kill the pylon.
On November 21 2010 02:27 CptThule wrote: @Bonkerz If u face this type of cheese a lot u should make it a habbit to scout your base early. You only need 2 scv's to do it.
At 8(almost 9) supply send one scv to scout half of the base and then build the depot at your ramp.This scv will proceed to scout your opponents base after the depot is done. At 11 supply send a second scv to scout the rest of your base and then build the barracks at your ramp. If you find a probe and a proxy pylon in your base,send 1 scv after the probe and 3 scv's to kill the pylon.
Okay thanks, i mean, so the only real way to stop it is to sacrifice some mining time.... Okay thanks a ton.
On November 21 2010 02:13 Bonkerz wrote: Okay so, I get cheesed by protoss all the fucking time... Im a terran...
So after my 10 depot i scout, If i see a protoss base empty then i know theres like 2 gateways warping in at my main. How can I stop this. I usually find it just when I am getting my rax up, Even if i Focus Fire Pylons with marine and like 5 scv's I cant stop it. This shit annoys the hell out of me, and I so no way to stop it unless like around 8 supply I send and SCV around my base.
P.S. He put the pylon for his gates against a wall so i could get no surround :-//
you have to scout at the time when he just throws the pylon down. usually what I do is when my depot finishes I go check around my base, then you surround it with 3-4 scvs. allow him to keep throwing down pylons, and keep putting scvs on them, put 1 scv on his probe, then when your marine is out gogo as normal. He should never get his gateway powered long enough to get a zealot out or its too late. you're losing mining time, but hes losing money too, and if he's building everything in your base, when you kill it he will be behind on tech too, so you could technically just go straight to cloaked banshees, or just play a macro game.
On November 21 2010 02:13 Bonkerz wrote: Okay so, I get cheesed by protoss all the fucking time... Im a terran...
So after my 10 depot i scout, If i see a protoss base empty then i know theres like 2 gateways warping in at my main. How can I stop this. I usually find it just when I am getting my rax up, Even if i Focus Fire Pylons with marine and like 5 scv's I cant stop it. This shit annoys the hell out of me, and I so no way to stop it unless like around 8 supply I send and SCV around my base.
P.S. He put the pylon for his gates against a wall so i could get no surround :-//
I go off micro at this point, personally. I cancel or take units off gas, make a 2nd rax, clump everything near main (which I start every game vs toss just for this reason until I see no cheese), I just go marine scv. 5-6 scvs to target the gateway or probe or pylon, anything. I go gateway. Then, have a bunker near your main that can hit all your buildings. Studder step the zealots all the way back to the bunker, pop out, do it again.
If that doesn't work, I get enough gas to make a couple marauders with shells as that ends any toss cheese rush.
hard to explain how to handle it, but 4-6 scvs + 3 marines can do a lot of damage with micro. Block his zealots with scvs, put hurt back on minerals fresh back out to fight INFRONT of marines.
From first hand experience, having been on both ends (the aggressor protoss and the defending terran) ,good bunker placement stops proxy gate cheese cold. You need atleast 2 bunkers in your mineral lines which are able to cover all your buildings.
However the only time I lost to it was when the protoss decided to get gas, and started getting warpgate tech + stalkers. He contained me long enough to get an expo running with cannons and then just proceeded to roll me over with his superior economy + tech. Was a frustrating game.
On November 20 2010 09:24 justle wrote: Do you feel like spending those games cheesing has been a waste of time? Do you think you could be a better player if you would have spent them using real builds?
In perspective, StarCraft 2 is a waste of time. School is a waste of time. Work is a waste of time. Attracting mates is a waste of time.
So, what makes something not a waste of time? The answer to that question is very philisophical, but i've' came to the conclusion that as long as you're reaping rewards from it, then it no longer is a waste of time.
If by Waste you mean Use then yes.
You're constantly reaping invisible rewards from everything you do. Especially when you fail. So wash off the eye makeup.
Sorry guys, i went to bed last night after intense amount of cheese. anyway, QUESTION MARATHON!!!
On November 20 2010 12:23 Reborn8u wrote: Do you get a lot of BM? Whats the worst BM your opponent has said? What sort of BM do you get a lot?
I once 12 droned a terran player and he just flew off into a the corner of the map and afked. I had to tech to mutas to kill him. Then after the game, he started spamming me.
On November 20 2010 12:46 TheBlueMeaner wrote: ¿have you ever felt the touch of a woman?
I wouldn't be playing starcraft if i have.
On November 20 2010 12:49 Zaurus wrote: how do you even make online friends and have practice partners if you just cheese. I doubt anybody find any joy in training w u.
Everyone wants to know how to be able to cheese like me. You have no idea how fun it is to dual planetary fortress + bunker rush in 4v4
just watch that... doesn't it look so fun? =D
On November 20 2010 13:11 thesauceishot wrote: PvP, best way to defend a proxy 2gate in your base?
When you see the pylon pop up, disregard it and dont' bother attacking it with your probes. save your chrono boost. As soon as you see him pop up a pylon, transition to two gate, and chrono your first few zealots. That's being said, you're probably only down 1 chrono boost from your opponent, so he won't have that much zealot advantage... however, you do have a massive probe advantage, and if you take off like 3 probes to attack the zealot along with your other zealots, you'll be fine.
On November 20 2010 21:16 nullflow wrote: Outmatched: 1 vs 4 Very Hard A.I
I've tried and tried for several hours/days! I've tried to cannon rush them, i've tried to fly to an island and build battlecrusiers, I've tried with banshees, i've tried to build up a big bio-ball while guarding my base with bunkers and all that stuff, but I always get overrun!
Please helppppp...
if you jsut want the achievement, somebody made a glorious thread on TL somewhere, that talks about how to abuse Greed type maps.
On November 21 2010 01:08 cocosoft wrote: What type of cheese do you do in TvT.... I've been experimentning some with 2+ rax stim marauder, but it doesn't seems to work quite perfect... It defenitely works against someone who tries to go fast banshee, and there might be some timing windows where I find it to work somewhat good but thats about it.
~1500 macro Random player
bunker rush is always an option if the terran player doesn't wall. But as i said before, cheesing terran is just difficult. unless it's 12 drone.
On November 21 2010 01:22 QQmonster wrote: What do you do as terran when the protoss goes DT or void rays as fast as possible? I have trouble distinguishing whether I'm being cheesed or if he's just saving up for a nexus, especially since you have limited scan and need to respond ASAP. Is the answer always having an scv/unit ready to check his natural?
assuming he's hidden his tech that is.
Another one I have trouble with is if I scout the twilight council but nothing else, I don't know if he's going for blink stalker cheese or teching to DT's. When I scout the council I usually respond by putting turrets around my perimeter to kill observers before the stalkers can blink, and so I can see DT's.
i mean, i always go ghosts againsts TvP. That being said, when there's DT's in my base, i can use scans AND emps.
On November 21 2010 01:27 Lawdy wrote: Why do you waste your time playing this game
Because my only girlfriend is my hand.
On November 21 2010 01:37 ReachTheSky wrote: How does it feel to not actually know how to play the game at a REAL level? ;P
How do you feel about the fact that you're an amazing singer, but some chick can just start singtalking TICKTOCKONTHELCLOCKDJBLOWMYSPEAKERUPTONIGHT. and get paid 1000x more than you?
On November 21 2010 02:06 megagoten wrote: how's your macro?
honestly, not that great, i usually always end games early, even if i don't cheese. I'm getting better at timing pushes though.
On November 21 2010 02:13 Bonkerz wrote: Okay so, I get cheesed by protoss all the fucking time... Im a terran...
So after my 10 depot i scout, If i see a protoss base empty then i know theres like 2 gateways warping in at my main. How can I stop this. I usually find it just when I am getting my rax up, Even if i Focus Fire Pylons with marine and like 5 scv's I cant stop it. This shit annoys the hell out of me, and I so no way to stop it unless like around 8 supply I send and SCV around my base.
P.S. He put the pylon for his gates against a wall so i could get no surround :-//
don't bother attacking the pylon. Bunker up next to your mineral lines and you'll be fine. That being said, you can always hide another barrack somewhere with your scout, and attack his base with marines because his base is undefended.
On November 21 2010 02:51 Slayth wrote: Why are you pretending this is 4chan?
On November 21 2010 03:44 Coolcatqt wrote: Why do you cheese? Isn't it more fun to improve?
You can improve a lot from doing high risk/non-standard play that a competitive player wouldn't want to use. It often requires excellent decision making, micro, and some times macro. Also, while obviously not beginning in the ideal situation, you can turn cheese/aggression in to a macro game against most 2200-2500 pt diamond players.
With that said, 6 pool is not something I'd advise if you are trying to improve by doing whatever the hell you want. There's lots of highly aggressive plays or hilarious fakes you can do that don't put you that far behind and can often cause people to over-react or go a certain tech path/one base longer than they should.
I'm 2100 at the moment and still get cheesed more than half the time. I take comfort in the fact that the only reason they cheese is because they are terrible players who have no other choice but to win in the first 5 minutes or not win at all.
On November 21 2010 09:36 Froadac wrote: How do you play vs like 7 pool + drone rush on scrap station?
You're not giving me enough information, what race are you playing?
Terran can just wall off. 2 barrack +1 supply would suffice i believe. stop producing scvs after you scout the 7pool and build 2 barracks instead.
-Stay Moist
Fail. As terran. I scouted latish, so I just saw it coming. I treid to wall off, but they were able to focus down the building building.
oh my bad, this is on scrap station, which has a ridiculously huge choke.
I'm not the person that defends against cheese. I'm only saying stuff that has worked against me, and so far i don't think a terran was able to stop a 6pool on scrap. Then again, i rarely sixpool on terran, i usually just expand and mass roaches. (macro ftl)
On November 21 2010 09:36 Froadac wrote: How do you play vs like 7 pool + drone rush on scrap station?
You're not giving me enough information, what race are you playing?
Terran can just wall off. 2 barrack +1 supply would suffice i believe. stop producing scvs after you scout the 7pool and build 2 barracks instead.
-Stay Moist
Fail. As terran. I scouted latish, so I just saw it coming. I treid to wall off, but they were able to focus down the building building.
oh my bad, this is on scrap station, which has a ridiculously huge choke.
I'm not the person that defends against cheese. I'm only saying stuff that has worked against me, and so far i don't think a terran was able to stop a 6pool on scrap. Then again, i rarely sixpool on terran, i usually just expand and mass roaches. (macro ftl)
No. Since on scrap station the rush distance is very long, if scouted properly it can be stopped with 2 rax 2 supplies, or 2rax 1 eng bay 1 supply if you want more hit points on the eng bay. Don't forget to stop scv's production and get your marine ASAP. pull 4-5 scvs to repair and continue to build the buildings whose scv's has been killed. already done a few times it but don't have replay.
On November 21 2010 11:09 canyoufelix wrote: I just want to say that I literally laughed out loud watching the in game chat on the 12 drone rush <3
Might try that next time I end up on steppes of war ZvT. (That map literally = insta lose for me.)
12 drone rush ALWAYS works...
IF the terran player isn't experienced in dealing with it. If you're a terran player that's trying to fight it off, my advice is to cancel the barracks (it'll be useless anyway, it'll only be like 1/8 done by the time the drones hit), and use that extra 150 minerals to buy 3 more scvs, and try to run around and stall until you can get those 3 SCV's out. also, have half bring your scvs and try to lock his drones into a choke, the scvs in the front will fight while the scvs in the back repair.
On November 21 2010 11:09 canyoufelix wrote: I just want to say that I literally laughed out loud watching the in game chat on the 12 drone rush <3
Might try that next time I end up on steppes of war ZvT. (That map literally = insta lose for me.)
12 drone rush ALWAYS works...
IF the terran player isn't experienced in dealing with it. If you're a terran player that's trying to fight it off, my advice is to cancel the barracks (it'll be useless anyway, it'll only be like 1/8 done by the time the drones hit), and use that extra 150 minerals to buy 3 more scvs, and try to run around and stall until you can get those 3 SCV's out. also, have half bring your scvs and try to lock his drones into a choke, the scvs in the front will fight while the scvs in the back repair.
See, this is the problem with stupid cheeses against people with above mediocre intelligence. Use common sense, and you'll beat it. There's nothing new or refreshing with this tip. Scvs has more life and they can repair. People will only lose if they're retarded.
You don't need experience to come to this conclusion, nor do you need some guy, with an inflated sense of worth because he has hit medium ranged in diamond with shitty builds, to tell you this.
It's because noobs, loosely used term here, get so mad at losing to a timing push, or a unit comp they can't micro out of, or realize they played terribly so they want the easiest and fastest way to win possible so they look good. What can ya do?
So theoretically..., even with first lost SCV - that one from barrack, with 11 SCV's (45 health) and one (possibly more) in building queue vs 12 drones 40 health (+some regen) terran should easily defend against this rush. Even wihout autorepair and stuff like that. Am i missing something ?
Props to you, OP. If five-minute rushes weren't supposed to exist, then people would be able to stop all of these quick attacks easily and every map would have destructible rocks in front of each base. Your micro is probably better than any non-cheeser's, while they probably have better macro than you.
While you may be missing out on late game strategies and the benefits of the ends of the tech tree, it's hilarious to watch people mock you for finding your own niche. Instead of QQing about cheese, maybe they should learn to prepare for it by scouting, defending, and countering.
I don't mean to disrespect what you're doing here, but that protoss game was a horrible example. The guy supply blocked himself early on and also built 0 sentries - any early push (non-cheese) would kill him.
On November 22 2010 08:52 sArite_nite wrote: Massive troll thread :D @ Title: "1850 Diamond" - Shows certain amounts of skill @ Trigger: "Cheeser" - Troll bait, brings out all the self-righteous macro bunnies
On November 20 2010 12:15 Sajiki wrote: Do you have self-respect?
Seen this Idra reference at least twice in the thread.
And against all those cheese haters, I'm gonna defend this guy. He's a baller.
lol, totally. Me too.
Even though I hate cheese, and don't cheese much myself, there's a couple of things that are important. Maybe i'm biased though since i'm Terran and just lol@cheese.
1) It's part of the meta game, and despite most people hating 1Base All-ins, it is clearly viable if extremely risky.
2) Hilarious in tourneys, you can't seriously say you weren't rooting for the MLG HuKship rushes to win?
3) If you can almost guarantee taking a game off your opponent in a super important tourney and possibly make them go on tilt.. DO IT!
Cannon rush vs FE / cannon wall-in are reliable as cheese gets. cheese is per definitionem never reliable and can never be. If it would be reliable, it wouldn't be cheese but a solid strategy. Reliable is only good macro/micro, awarness, scouting and decision making.
@ Title: "1850 Diamond" - Shows certain amounts of skill
1850 Diamond with Cheese show exactly zero amount of skill. If you only ever play till the 6th min max, you need very little skill. Like Day9 said, you could easily 4-gate your way to the top of diamond (and if the guys in the state-of-the-game podcast don't tell bullshit, thats exactly what OptikZero has done) and this is even worse than 4-gating.
Any decent player might lose to this shit once, but really never twice.
Mr. Moist, you prematurely GGed 3 times in your 12 drone rush. I think I understand why you can't play a macro game. You just can't control yourself for more than a few minutes before losing it and blowing your BM load everywhere.
In all seriousness though, the replays you posted definitely show your lack of class. Macro is a gentleman's game.
what's your favourite thing to say after they scout your cheese? like during that moment where you know your opponent is like "oh shiii-". usually i stick to the old but still classy 'how do you like dem apples?"
What's the best way to do a proxy hatch? Both in 1v1 and 2v2.
Been playing around with my off-race in some 2v2's with a friend, and I must honestly say; the feeling of doing a succesful proxy hatch is almost, to use the words of another poster, as good as the touch of a woman.
Cheesing -> Short-term Micro oriented play. Generally takes less planning ahead thus less critical thinking.
Cheesing tilts so many players because its, in essence, like taking a shit on someones carefully laid plans for taking over Rome.
The amount of effort and thought it took a cheese build to win is much less than a macro-oriented game. And thus your peers, who arent your buddies, will think less of your play. Buts its the internet and you can do that without cheesing anyways.
Cannon rush vs FE / cannon wall-in are reliable as cheese gets. cheese is per definitionem never reliable and can never be. If it would be reliable, it wouldn't be cheese but a solid strategy. Reliable is only good macro/micro, awarness, scouting and decision making.
@ Title: "1850 Diamond" - Shows certain amounts of skill
1850 Diamond with Cheese show exactly zero amount of skill. If you only ever play till the 6th min max, you need very little skill. Like Day9 said, you could easily 4-gate your way to the top of diamond (and if the guys in the state-of-the-game podcast don't tell bullshit, thats exactly what OptikZero has done) and this is even worse than 4-gating.
Any decent player might lose to this shit once, but really never twice.
I know right? People have some nerve using good, safe strategies that work incredibly well in general. How dare they not ONLY make one of every single unit before pushing out, in order to honor the obviously clear intentions of the game designers?
Why do you sign your posts? If you want to known by something other than the account you use to post on TL you can always go here to change your name to "Stay Moist" or whatever name you choose.
successful troll (if he is trolling) is successful. don't feed the troll with 1-liners. and don't worry, things will work out for the better, just concentrate on getting your game better.
cheesing is something that perhaps you should do once in a while; it's good to have some in your back pocket. a win is a win. when TLO did a 6-pool, i don't recall people saying "OMG CHEEZE U SUX"...
Cannon rush vs FE / cannon wall-in are reliable as cheese gets. cheese is per definitionem never reliable and can never be. If it would be reliable, it wouldn't be cheese but a solid strategy. Reliable is only good macro/micro, awarness, scouting and decision making.
@ Title: "1850 Diamond" - Shows certain amounts of skill
1850 Diamond with Cheese show exactly zero amount of skill. If you only ever play till the 6th min max, you need very little skill. Like Day9 said, you could easily 4-gate your way to the top of diamond (and if the guys in the state-of-the-game podcast don't tell bullshit, thats exactly what OptikZero has done) and this is even worse than 4-gating.
Any decent player might lose to this shit once, but really never twice.
I know right? People have some nerve using good, safe strategies that work incredibly well in general. How dare they not ONLY make one of every single unit before pushing out, in order to honor the obviously clear intentions of the game designers?
/sarcasm
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
different mindsets i guess. most people play here for competition,to get better and not to get ladder wins(lolsrs stuff!) as easy as possible. but hey, if you think winning without actually beeing better and doing the same one dimensional stuff over and over again is fun then ya, keep doing it.
Two points of critique rather than questions, but I'd be interested in your feedback...
1) 7RR all-in cheese crushes terrans on small maps. I can't believe you haven't found this.
2) I have found great sucess blocking cheese vs randoms, because I assume the random is cheesing, and am willing to even hurt my build to stop it blind - knowing full well that I can afford the eco hit. This is because Randoms cannot match my macro game past tier 1 due to him having 1/3 the experience playing the race. So he cheeses and auto-loses, or doesn't and loses anyway. Why doesn't this happen to you more at your level?
3) How often do Protoss scout you early and just forge-cannon wall into 4-gate?
On November 22 2010 23:00 DaemonX wrote: 2) I have found great sucess blocking cheese vs randoms, because I assume the random is cheesing, and am willing to even hurt my build to stop it blind - knowing full well that I can afford the eco hit. This is because Randoms cannot match my macro game past tier 1 due to him having 1/3 the experience playing the race. So he cheeses and auto-loses, or doesn't and loses anyway. Why doesn't this happen to you more at your level?
Simply because many don't adapt to randoms. They are dumb and do what they always do and then cry out loud.
On November 22 2010 09:11 57 Corvette wrote: Is there any decent cheese A protoss can use against zerg at the 1400 diamond level with a good success rate? (Not cannon rush, something reliable)
Early game cheese? No. Unless the zerg goes for a fast expand, then you can just lay some proxy gateways and harass the drones. Although this is quite risky because zerg can get out zerglings really fast.
Mid game "cheese" is still more viable. proxying some pylons randomly and warping in High templars with storm can easily wipe out mineral lines, armys, and more.
On November 22 2010 09:22 Doraemon wrote: how do i stay moist?
In order to stay moist, you must first be moist. Achieving that saturated level of moistness is quite difficult, and only the dedicated can achieve.
On November 22 2010 09:36 aeoliant wrote: what's your favourite thing to say after they scout your cheese? like during that moment where you know your opponent is like "oh shiii-". usually i stick to the old but still classy 'how do you like dem apples?"
OH GOD, IS IT ISN'T WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. NO PLEASE DON'T DO IT. NO PLEASE DON'T WALL OFF
On November 22 2010 09:31 Frobert wrote: Macro is a gentleman's game.
What about the female starcraft 2 players?
On November 22 2010 09:44 UncleOwnage wrote: What's the best way to do a proxy hatch? Both in 1v1 and 2v2.
Proxy hatch is so hard to do now ever since it took spinecrawlers to take >9000 hours to plant themselves. But yeah, proxy hatch then plant spinecrawlers + queens with transfusion to protect it. I think i have a replay of this somewhere... i'll post it later if i can find it.
On November 22 2010 10:32 mOnion wrote: 6pool is most effective when toss scouts as early as possible? awesome
so what do you suggest we do? scout later?
I dont' think you understood what i mean by scouting at 9. Scouting at 9 is LATE on a 4 playered map against a random player. you usually want to scout even earlier than that.
On November 22 2010 13:01 Draktharr wrote: The reason why I'm going to stop playing sc2 and switch to diablo 3 asap the beta will get out is in this thread
And for ur 2nd replay, you should know that gg = "good game", not "end of the game"
the game was just horrible
Yeah, i forgot, you're never supposed to show BM to terran players. because then they'll just lift off into a corner and afk while you have to tech to weaponized overlords.
On November 22 2010 23:00 DaemonX wrote: Two points of critique rather than questions, but I'd be interested in your feedback...
1) 7RR all-in cheese crushes terrans on small maps. I can't believe you haven't found this.
2) I have found great sucess blocking cheese vs randoms, because I assume the random is cheesing, and am willing to even hurt my build to stop it blind - knowing full well that I can afford the eco hit. This is because Randoms cannot match my macro game past tier 1 due to him having 1/3 the experience playing the race. So he cheeses and auto-loses, or doesn't and loses anyway. Why doesn't this happen to you more at your level?
3) How often do Protoss scout you early and just forge-cannon wall into 4-gate?
1. Not if the terran player bunkers up (i'm talking 3+ bunkers). which SHOULD be done if you see a queen slowly walking to your base and an early roach warren. 2. Sadly, a lot of diamond players believe that cannons are for "noobs". I rarely see a protoss player defend his base with cannons. Also, on a 4 player map, and if a protoss player scouts at 9, and misses the first scout, my zerglings will already be up and running by the time his scout even reaches my base. 3. When in doubt. more zerglings.
On November 23 2010 02:21 RemrafGrez wrote: Sounds like Protoss have the worst time defending cheese. Anybody surprised?
Great topic by the way... education and entertainment.
definately. before reaper nerf, i would pull off a 80% win percentage with reaper rushes alone.
Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
winning is winning. I don't know why everyone looks down upon cheese. Sometimes you have to cheese to win. If you're oponent is doing double proxy gate ways inside your main, and you go 6 pool (which is the counter) is that still cheese?
On November 23 2010 05:36 canSore wrote: winning is winning. I don't know why everyone looks down upon cheese. Sometimes you have to cheese to win. If you're oponent is doing double proxy gate ways inside your main, and you go 6 pool (which is the counter) is that still cheese?
generally speaking counter-cheese opponent (proxy hatch etc) is proper strategy however 6pool and proxy gates are not based on what your opponent is doing so its just both players cheesing
On November 23 2010 05:19 skipdog172 wrote: Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
Nice stereotyping. Maybe the fact why I hate this thread is because I watched the two replays and watched this BM kid spamming offensive gg all the time, then proceed to be all high and mighty about his working cheese, even thought I could pull that off with zero practice, and hold it off with zero practice aswell.
Watching his protoss opponent have 750 minerals 5 minutes into the game because he's awful is not a good show of how a cheese works. You could've played that guy straight up and won aswell. Same with the terran guy with zero reflexes. This guy deserves zero respect as long as he doesn't show replays of beating people with an actual brain without all the stupid offensive gg shit.
On November 23 2010 05:19 skipdog172 wrote: Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
Nice stereotyping. Maybe the fact why I hate this thread is because I watched the two replays and watched this BM kid spamming offensive gg all the time, then proceed to be all high and mighty about his working cheese, even thought I could pull that off with zero practice, and hold it off with zero practice aswell.
Watching his protoss opponent have 750 minerals 5 minutes into the game because he's awful is not a good show of how a cheese works. You could've played that guy straight up and won aswell. Same with the terran guy with zero reflexes. This guy deserves zero respect as long as he doesn't show replays of beating people with an actual brain without all the stupid offensive gg shit.
lol, offensive gg. people need to grow a thicker skin on the internet, especially sc players.
On November 23 2010 05:19 skipdog172 wrote: Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
Nice stereotyping. Maybe the fact why I hate this thread is because I watched the two replays and watched this BM kid spamming offensive gg all the time, then proceed to be all high and mighty about his working cheese, even thought I could pull that off with zero practice, and hold it off with zero practice aswell.
Watching his protoss opponent have 750 minerals 5 minutes into the game because he's awful is not a good show of how a cheese works. You could've played that guy straight up and won aswell. Same with the terran guy with zero reflexes. This guy deserves zero respect as long as he doesn't show replays of beating people with an actual brain without all the stupid offensive gg shit.
lol, offensive gg. people need to grow a thicker skin on the internet, especially sc players.
Even more stereotyping. I didn't even play SC. I honestly don't care if people offensive gg me, because I'm all the more likely to win the game then, but it's still annoying to watch people release replays where they're acting like complete douchebags while requesting "respect" for it.
On November 23 2010 05:19 skipdog172 wrote: Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
Nice stereotyping. Maybe the fact why I hate this thread is because I watched the two replays and watched this BM kid spamming offensive gg all the time, then proceed to be all high and mighty about his working cheese, even thought I could pull that off with zero practice, and hold it off with zero practice aswell.
Watching his protoss opponent have 750 minerals 5 minutes into the game because he's awful is not a good show of how a cheese works. You could've played that guy straight up and won aswell. Same with the terran guy with zero reflexes. This guy deserves zero respect as long as he doesn't show replays of beating people with an actual brain without all the stupid offensive gg shit.
lol, offensive gg. people need to grow a thicker skin on the internet, especially sc players.
Even more stereotyping. I didn't even play SC. I honestly don't care if people offensive gg me, because I'm all the more likely to win the game then, but it's still annoying to watch people release replays where they're acting like complete douchebags while requesting "respect" for it.
You don't play SC but you are arguing on a SC forum about SC things and saying you don't care when people offensive gg you in SC?
On November 22 2010 08:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: A win is a win.
Props to you, OP. If five-minute rushes weren't supposed to exist, then people would be able to stop all of these quick attacks easily and every map would have destructible rocks in front of each base. Your micro is probably better than any non-cheeser's, while they probably have better macro than you.
While you may be missing out on late game strategies and the benefits of the ends of the tech tree, it's hilarious to watch people mock you for finding your own niche. Instead of QQing about cheese, maybe they should learn to prepare for it by scouting, defending, and countering.
Offencive gg's are bad, but its not THAT bad. There are worse BMs.
Thanks for cheesing it up! the more the better, it helps balance the game and weeds out weaker players. Not that i'm any good at defending it but all-ins are valid strategies and i could use some practice against defending it, but i haven't seen that many people cheese at my level yet.
On November 23 2010 05:19 skipdog172 wrote: Nice post. I can't believe all of the players so butt-hurt that they just post here to insult you. If you lose to this cheese, you are getting outplayed. Stop trying to trick yourself into believing that you are the "better player".
Everybody here acts like they are so much better because they want to play macro games, and yet they don't want to lose to cheese and get as much out of it as any other loss. You are angry because somebody else can outplay you in a micro game. Every person who posts an insult in this thread shows that you are just like this cheeser - don't care much about improving. You just want to play macro starcraft and don't want to learn how to beat cheese. This is like the cheeser just wanting to play cheesy starcraft and don't want to learn how to macro.
Stop acting like you are better because you prefer the macro game. No, I don't cheese myself. I don't find it much fun. I don't see a point in hating on somebody who prefers to cheese. I love playing against these guys. It is great practice! Isn't that the point of playing?
Just wanted to say that this is a very entertaining post, and stay moist mad me laugh a few times.
However I am questioning if stay moist is really a diamond player. Because on his second replay with the 12 drones rush, the SCV production was lacking. I am not at diamond level, but I would never let my SCV production lag like that.
He's showing replays against newer/bad players. The 'unstoppable' 12 drone rush was against a Terran that went 11 depot. It's nowhere near unstoppable against any halfway competent T player.
On November 23 2010 15:06 oxxo wrote: He's showing replays against newer/bad players. The 'unstoppable' 12 drone rush was against a Terran that went 11 depot. It's nowhere near unstoppable against any halfway competent T player.
I actually didn't watch the replay. In hindsight, i probably should have before posting it. I simplyed posted that replay out of the many more in my cache because that was the ONLY terran player who DIDN'T lift off and afk in a corner while i tech to mutas :/
In perspective, StarCraft 2 is a waste of time. School is a waste of time. Work is a waste of time. Attracting mates is a waste of time.
So, what makes something not a waste of time? The answer to that question is very philisophical, but i've' came to the conclusion that as long as you're reaping rewards from it, then it no longer is a waste of time.
If I enjoy cheesing as much as someone who macros up, why shouldn't I just cheese? Maybe I'm not as "good" as the other player. Big deal, it's all about reaping the rewards in the aftermath. We both end up having same ladder points, we both probably have same tournament records, and we both probably enjoy the game.
Wow, so wise Totally agree.
Hifriend is such a troll. The guy cracks me up. Makes a topic a long time ago about how he's done, everything is cheese at 1600 diamond and higher.
Classic. Now he thinks he's the cheese expert. The best part? In my last 20-30 solo games, 2 have been cheese. The same person did both. A 2.5k total games protoss that ONLY cheeses. He lost easily, as he had no clue how to play.
Hifriend, you're just an idiot. Cheese is less common the higher up you go, as people can stop it easier, or react to it better. People opt for macro games, at least an expansion, because the age of 1 base all in is at least slowing down.
The worst part of this thread is the losers who are begging to learn new cheese strategies because they can't micro or macro and want to be able to say 'I'M 1800 DIAMOND!!!'
Best way to cheese? Forget it and move on to the next game. Vs random, always wall faster than normal and scout earlier than normal. Don't listen to idiots like hifriend who act as if they know EVERYTHING about the ladder because of the slim section of people he plays.
Is there any word I have to mention besides "Hypocrite"?
Edit:
Nice stereotyping. Maybe the fact why I hate this thread is because I watched the two replays and watched this BM kid spamming offensive gg all the time, then proceed to be all high and mighty about his working cheese, even thought I could pull that off with zero practice, and hold it off with zero practice aswell.
Watching his protoss opponent have 750 minerals 5 minutes into the game because he's awful is not a good show of how a cheese works. You could've played that guy straight up and won aswell. Same with the terran guy with zero reflexes. This guy deserves zero respect as long as he doesn't show replays of beating people with an actual brain without all the stupid offensive gg shit.
The reason why you hate this thread is clear. You're angry at yourself. You can't accept the way others decide to play the game. Until you fix your attitude/approach/view of exactly what you want out of the game, you will probably always feel like this. Also, sure offensive gg can be looked down upon as BM. But is it not also a psychological strategy? Blizzard has no rules in ladder games saying you can't talk to the opponent, or that you can't use any psychological strategies through social means. Whether or not it's BM or "morale" is your own decision.
I love cheesing, I love defending against cheesing, but how the OP goes on sarcastically about how he only does it to make people feel bad (and get personal enjoyment out of it), that doesn't seem so sarcastic after you watch those replays. It's clearly an aspect of it. It's not like the guy provoked him into saying those things, he was just trying his best (which was terrible, to be honest), to hold that all-in.
Still, cheese on, anyone who hates you for cheesing is just envious that they can't get your rank by playing "normally".
Its certainly a viable tactic, but it is always based on the surprise element, so the "outplayed element" is less-so than for the defender to react well and shut you down completely. I really wish I got cheesed more often, even if I lose a lot because cheesers just get so angry when I do everything right and they have no transition. You can't get more satisfaction than scouting a 6-pool allin in with drones and having him arrive to your base with a cannon warping in just as they arrive and having both players know the game is over.
How do you cheese as Zerg? I know the 6-pool, but people seem to be able to fend this off easily, and my friends don't even find it fun anymore :b It just doesn't feel awesome, not even once.
The 9/9/9 roach build is a good cheese. I like that one.
The Proxy Hatch is a kinda weird cheese to me. Its not really a cheese build as much as something you can pull off if the chance if there.
What other cheese builds do you do as Zerg? And what do you transition into after? Or ar you always, only all-in?
dude, that 1st game the protoss was horrible. got his cybercore way late, supply blocked at 18, really delayed warp gate. any kind of agression was going to kill him for being so bad.
how do u defend a canon rush? the good ones ( wallofing his 1st canon so u cant touch it) and dont say "block the probe that entering your base" thats froggsheet! thats all pure luck , he can send 2(usually they have 2 when they canon rush ) probes on mineralwalk , and u cant stop them .
offensive gg,s are the most annoying bm there is its much more annoying then some idiot whos cursing and what not lifting of and hiding in a corner while going afk for a drink and some cookies is the apropiate response blizzard should realy add the option to turn of chat from your opponent while you are playing ("every" game has options to mute people you dont want to hear)
annyway: love cheese and have a question. is 6 pool the by far strongest cheese? (since its the only version you sometimes see in tournaments) and could you give some bo for the cheeses you use as terran
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163963.jpg)
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