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Canada340 Posts
On November 15 2010 07:49 Zvendetta wrote:
Well, of course theres the whole "But what about compositions" arguement. But bottom line is that if a protoss goes forge FE against terran, they should get +1 armor against bio (which is standard basically, whens the last time you saw pure mech lol), NOT +1 weapons, which was the original point trying to be made.
you can FFE versus terran...?
i've never even tried that because it just sounds silly. you'd stand no chance if he scouts you and goes either tanks or drops or banshees (unless you throw down a whole whack of cannons, that might hold off banshees.)
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On November 15 2010 07:57 KaoReal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 07:49 Zvendetta wrote:
Well, of course theres the whole "But what about compositions" arguement. But bottom line is that if a protoss goes forge FE against terran, they should get +1 armor against bio (which is standard basically, whens the last time you saw pure mech lol), NOT +1 weapons, which was the original point trying to be made. you can FFE versus terran...? i've never even tried that because it just sounds silly. you'd stand no chance if he scouts you and goes either tanks or drops or banshees (unless you throw down a whole whack of cannons, that might hold off banshees.)
can't FFE against terran. ranged tier 1 units make cannons nonviable.
i think he means gateway or gateway-robo FE builds.
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Unfortunately this has been posted multiple times in multiple threads, yes, +1 armor is the best thing to go with GS against heavy MARINE compositions since for every +1 upgrade, they gain a substantial % of dmg reduction.
But against heavy marauders compositions you really should be opting for +1 attack since the marauders shots are so slow.
Enjoy.
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I like fast +1 armor against marine/banshee openings since I'm getting a forge for cannons in some cases anyway.
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The only issue is the Protoss have shields.
That means you need +1 Armor +1 Shields. Viable but expensive. But worth every penny.
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On November 15 2010 08:37 lao wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 07:57 KaoReal wrote:On November 15 2010 07:49 Zvendetta wrote:
Well, of course theres the whole "But what about compositions" arguement. But bottom line is that if a protoss goes forge FE against terran, they should get +1 armor against bio (which is standard basically, whens the last time you saw pure mech lol), NOT +1 weapons, which was the original point trying to be made. you can FFE versus terran...? i've never even tried that because it just sounds silly. you'd stand no chance if he scouts you and goes either tanks or drops or banshees (unless you throw down a whole whack of cannons, that might hold off banshees.) can't FFE against terran. ranged tier 1 units make cannons nonviable. i think he means gateway or gateway-robo FE builds.
Yes, I just meant any sort of FE variant that is viable vs terran. They can go 1rax FE, protoss can go something along the same lines also. Its just so you have the economy to support +1armor while constantly producing units.
After reading the stats, it seems zealot (heavy or not), benefits the most from +1armor, as you saw +1 weapons is only marginally better against marauders, but then again in super small small numbers you have stalkers as well, so with the lots staying alive longer the stalkers get more hits in.
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hey, great calculations, it's nice to know how many hits it takes to kill stuff to get a general idea, but don't go overboard. You're forgetting that the terran units are going to stim at least once, stalkers are going to be firing at them, possibly medivacs healing...
+1 armor is great though, especially if you are going templar tech. For colossus tech you really want the attack upgrades sooner though 
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The exact number's are quite irrelevant. Terran will rarely ever be using a pure marine or pure marauder army anyway by the time you get a upgrade.
The armor upgrade is indeed a slight bit better then attack though the difference is minimal. Both upgrades aren't that stellar compared to other techs (such as charge or colossus range) so I wouldn't put any rush in getting these upgrades.
I usually go forge after or at the same as charge (which is after colossus & colo range for me) and then upgrade lvl 1 armor, lvl 1 attack, lvl 2 armor, lvl 2 attack, lvl 3 armor , lvl 3 attack. Occasionally I switch order after level 1 prioritizing attack if i'm getting heavy templars and more archons at that point (which obviously benefit ALOT from attack and nothing from armor).
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On November 15 2010 23:30 Markwerf wrote:
The exact number's are quite irrelevant. Terran will rarely ever be using a pure marine or pure marauder army anyway by the time you get a upgrade.
While true, I'd say the cases where they are using pure marines (marine banshee raven style pushes) are the ones that could really become easier with upgrades - and they're also the ones you usually get a faster forge against.
In such cases the decision is obvious, as +1 attack has little benefit as numbers show, compared to the sizable increase in survivability. Against that push buying time is the most important thing, as stim and pdd are limited.
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Hmm +1 armor is probably better almost any time against bio play then +1 attack BUT it's not something you want to rush for imo. Forge and cannons are quite useless early on against terran and you don't want to go with an armor upgrade and cannons to stop a marine banshee raven push...
Because there was 1 game in GSL 2 where cannons were used to stop a raven push people think that cannons are actually good agianst that... Trust me, they aren't. Cannons are insanely crappy against PDD and to stop a banshee/raven/push you are better off investing all extra money in a stargate + phoenix then in a forge and cannons. Armor upgrades do quite little against banshee's and those pushes generally come before you have +1 armor done anyway.
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How often are your zealots in range of that guardian shield? Almost never, sentrys like to sit back with the stalker ball, if you move them in range they will get sniped. so that guardian shield ends up not benefiting the zealots at all
Wrong! Against MM, sentries should be up with the zealots trying to put force fields behind the marines and marauders and stop the kiting. Early game against MM I like to favor zealots and sentries and be somewhat light on stalker count (depending on how many marauders T has). Good force fields make all the difference and Guardian Shield with +1 armor are huge and integral to my early game against Terran.
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thank you OP for an informative post. I have benefited a great deal.
@lao, thanks as well for your additions.
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One thing to note is that templar damage doesn't get upgraded ever- and it will be your main damage dealer assuming you lived long enough to actually get storm. In that situation, unit durability will be a massive concern. If you already have armor/shield upgraded you're in a very good position.
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There have been a few posts here and there about the importance of upgrading armor against terran MM pushes.
Naturally, gaurdian shields a VERY important, but are easily FF'd down by smart terrans. Still, if you manage to get your +1 armor before they get +1 infantry weapon you will have a decent timing window. Still, its hard to bust a terrans front door with nothing but gateway units so this window can be used as a window to safely expand as you know you currently have the upper hand if the armies were to engage.
+1 upgradd, +1 base armor, +2 guardian shield makes the marines hit your zealots and stalkers for 2 (TWO!) damage per shot. Sweeter than honey that is.
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Excellent post, and replies, thanks very much for posting, somehow I must have missed this topic if it was posted before.
As a side note, you might consider changing 'epitome' to 'epiphany', definitely might help you sound more credible.
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too bad that marauders shit on your armor upgrades, and thats the one unit im having the most problems with ever since beta 
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I find it more useful +2weapon than +2armor. But idk about +1/+1 instead of +2/+0 or +0/+2
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I started going for ~6 gateways off 2 bases with upgrades vs bio and then taking a 3rd and it's been working really well you can really notice the difference the armor upgrades make especially if you manage to get ahead of terrans in upgrades. I'm even on a huge winstreak vs terrans now although i still want to play around with the forge timing.
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I've wanted to get a forge into PvT but i really never do till 2nd base is up and running when really i need my zealots to survive the first few waves
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i think u mean epiphany, not epitome. epiphany is a sudden realization while epitome is a perfect example
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EPT
