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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game.
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On November 09 2010 13:05 Karthane wrote:
I really don't think the slight economic advantage from hatching first is worth taking away the safety net pool first gives you. There have been many times that lings have popped at just the right time to save me from a bunker/cannon rush that could have really hurt me. Good to see these statistics, nonetheless.
I agree with Karthane. I usually go 14 pool 14 gas, and frankly, that little burst of 6 Zerglings at 15 food is life-saving more often than the slight economic boost with a 14 hatch would be. Granted, I have been testing 15 Hatch, 14 Pool, 13 Gas against Terran (since for the most part, they turtle longer), but 2v2s have been soaking up a lot of my time as of late.
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On November 10 2010 03:07 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 01:39 g50000 wrote:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
A patrolling Drone won't prevent any Pylon / Canon build that renders your early hatch 100% useless. Overall a patrolling Drone can't do anything but scout and well block ramp pylons.But yeah anyways I still don't get your first point. How the f*** is one Drone supposed to deny any quick Zealot pressure, canon play or marine rush?
Blocking the ramp pylons/bunkers is the whole point of the patrol drone, that way you can reinforce with more drones and shut the cannon build down (they die surprisely fast when building)
The problem with hatch after pool is the fact that on most maps the scout will arrive and block your hatch preventing it from being built unless you send 3 drones (2 will slowly kill it, but a good kiter will keep it a live just long enough to fuck up your timing or build a pylon). 14 hatch on the other hand is a sure thing (aside from weirdo scouting).
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When i go hatch first, i notice it gives me a pretty huge advantage mid-late game.
Because the 2nd hatch came so early, the # of minerals remaining at my main/natural stay very close. When playing against a player that took a later expansion, I notice that their main becomes mined out while I still have a considerable amount left at my main-.
Therefore even though we have mined the same # of absolute minerals, they have to take a 3rd base just to keep their resource collection rate in line with mine on 2 bases.
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I have had success going 14 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 14 pool in almost any situation except ZvZ close positions. In the case your opponent scouts it and goes for a game ending harass (drops a forge and throws down cannons at your ramp, 2gate boosted pressure, bunker marine rush) I still can fend it off and end up ahead. You just need to be patient. If you see the bunker going down, just rally your lings and queen away and have them hold position or micro them if they kite w/ marines. Build one spine out of range. Wait till the hatch is down around 20% health and then move in with all your lings and 2 queens and crush it while moving the spine in range. Once the bunker dies and/or the last cannon is damaged pull your stuff back and let the spine finish it to reduce units lost.
I almost welcome this all-in ish attempts to stop the hatch.
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On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
Hatch first is less production than 10 overpool 15 queen 17 hatch 18 queen. You are correct, of course, that hatch first leaves you with a lot more minerals and earlier creep.
On November 10 2010 03:42 MrBitter wrote:
Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy.
Except when it is. For example, in a build aiming for a rush at 5:00, going 10 overpool lets you build more drones than a later pool, and still get an equally powerful rush due to the extra inject larvae.
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On November 10 2010 03:47 MontagneBleu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general. If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game.
You use one queen to spawn larva and the other to spread creep.
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Against Terran even on close positions I have no issues with 14 hatch. I like it when I get bunker rushed now. Just pull 4-5 drones, they probably are bringing back up SCVs so you wont be at a loss and any lost mining time you have will quickly be made up out of 2 hatcheries producing. Same thing with a pylon rush. I have my 2nd overlord over my natural and I always follow around the probe, if he lays pylons down I pull 4 drones and get at it.
However I normally 14 Pool/15 or 16 Hatch versus toss anyway.
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What about 13 pool 16 hatch with 2 queens from the main, one from the natural? Creep spread is good, and you have the option of making lings and spines very early if necessary.
In an unscientific run-through vs AI on a novice map I built up to 42 supply, 3 queens, 3 sets of lings, 30 drones, metabolic boost on the way, with 2 active creep tumors (one from main->nat, one pushing out from the natural) and 100 gas with one geyser active (18 gas after OL) by the 6:00 mark. Not an optimal run-through, supply blocked once and made extra lings instead of pure drones, but it still felt solid.
edit: hmm, didn't do a mineral-only test, but I feel like geyser timing is important too. Slowlings can get kited pretty hard, and you'll need some gas for roaches if you go that way.
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Why would you plant hatch on 16 when you can afford it at 15?
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It's great to see actual tests on this, I've wondered for a while if hatch first really was economically superior because the early Queen is just so helpful for defending cheese/droning up/creep spread.
Based on these numbers, I would much rather have the early pool, allowing me to defend against Zerg/Protoss all-ins than the minor econ advantage granted by a Hatch first build.
NesTea and FruitDealer may be able to defend a bunker rush with drones alone, but I sure as hell can't.
EDIT: I also plan to do some testing with this later when I get home, thanks for getting me motivated!
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The creep spread for hatch first is absolutely huge, especially against terran players. I always open hatch first against terran. Bunker/marine rushes are much easier to hold off than toss cannon or 2-gate. You get two tumors instead of one, it really makes a huge difference in the mid game when your creep is halfway to their base. You should be able to get a faster lair IF you are going for an extremely fast lair, because only 1 queen has to build from each hatch, not 2 queens from your main. You get 2 extra food earlier and your second queen earlier.
On the other hand, for smaller maps (especially against protoss,) opening pool first is much safer mostly because you can easily transition into a lot of other builds based on scouting. You can roach rush, baneling bust, FE between 16-21, 1-base muta... You better be sure your opponent isn't doing any early pressure if you open hatch first on Steppes.
In ZvZ it is practical to go hatch first if you can scout a pool 14 or later.
I've heard a lot of people say that the marginal economic gains from hatch first aren't worth the risk. Just a suggestion: maybe you should work on defending the early pressure until you are comfortable with the slightly larger risk of hatch first. It is clearly the better opening supposing no pressure is applied or if early pressure is fended off; there should be no doubting that. If you get to the point where you can fend off 9/10 bunker rushes, hatch first becomes a no brainer.
Every thing you do in SC, you want to do it as GREEDILY as possible without the enemy being able to take advantage. You want to drone as hard as you can and barely fend off that first push, setting up for a great midgame. You want to hatch first because 8/10 games the opponent wont pressure you and the two times they do, you'll be confident in knowing you can fend it off and take an even greater lead.
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Added 13 pool 16 hatch stats to the OP, which seems to blow all other openings away.
Surplus of larva, tons of minerals, tumor timing is only about 10 seconds slower than hatch first hatch timing is about 30 seconds slower. Lings come out 5 seconds sooner.
Zerg BO Optimizer wins so far.
I am strapped for time, so I can't sit down and do all the tests I want at the moment. But so far, hatch first is dead, and that's not-so-much a bad thing.
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On November 10 2010 22:45 Jermstuddog wrote:
Added 13 pool 16 hatch stats to the OP, which seems to blow all other openings away.
Surplus of larva, tons of minerals, tumor timing is only about 10 seconds slower than hatch first hatch timing is about 30 seconds slower. Lings come out 5 seconds sooner.
Zerg BO Optimizer wins so far.
I am strapped for time, so I can't sit down and do all the tests I want at the moment. But so far, hatch first is dead, and that's not-so-much a bad thing.
How did you use Zerg BO Optimizer in this?
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13 pool 16 hatch is what the BO optimizer suggests for most economical.
My elementary tests agree.
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Pool first is much worse off vs hellion builds depending on your Zerg playstyle.
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On November 10 2010 06:21 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:47 MontagneBleu wrote:On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general. If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game. You use one queen to spawn larva and the other to spread creep.
You actually spread creep with both. You don't need larva inject at all.
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On November 11 2010 01:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
13 pool 16 hatch is what the BO optimizer suggests for most economical.
My elementary tests agree.
How exactly did you define "most economical" for EC input?
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What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals?
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On November 11 2010 01:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals?
You can run EC to find the fastest way to.... something but not minerals or army value.
So do you ask for fastest 30 drones? - it will give you other BO for sure...
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EPT
