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There was a thread up here a week or two ago with some baseless argument about how worthless going for a FE in ZvX is. I did some minor testing with this, and I have personally found that Pool first doesn't miss out on that much econ for the amount of safety it provides.
First thing I set out was a stopping point. I find 6 minutes to be a good amount of time for both hatcheries to be up regardless of the order you build things.
I did not bother building gas or actually doing a build, but if these details are found to be important, we can add them in.
I did put down creep tumors in all games, but did not bother to spread them effectively, so the time difference can add up to more tumors.
Important stats at the 6 min mark:
amount of minerals
amount of drones / supply
drones and overlords that are still building
amount of larva
how far along the next spawn larva is (always were 1/2 way oddly enough)
On to the Replays (There are flaws in all the important stats as I am not perfect and forgot to build a 2nd tumor in one game as well as changed from 2 to 4 lings in the middle of testing)
The Builds:
9 OV 14 hatch 14 pool
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=98
14 hatch - 2:10
14 pool - 2:35
2 lings - 3:40
1st Creep Tumor - 4:41
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:55
6 min mark
925 minerals
31 drones 38/52 (made an extra OV)
2 drones building, just started
4 larva
1 spawn 1/2 way done
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11 pool w/ extractor trick before and after
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=99
11 pool - 1:25
16 hatch - 3:10
2 lings - 3:45
1st Creep Tumor - 4:07
6 min mark
338 minerals
36 drones 43/44
2 drones and 2 overlords building, all under 1/2 way
0 larva
2 spawns 1/2 way done
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15 hatch 14 pool
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=100
15 hatch - 2:15
14 pool - 2:34
4 lings - 3:45
1st Creep Tumor - 4:40
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:58
6 min mark
990 minerals
31 drones 38/44
1 drone and 1 overlord building
4 larva
1 spawn 1/2 way done
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13 pool 14 hatch
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=101
13 pool - 1:50
14 hatch - 2:35
4 lings - 3:21
1st Creep Tumor - 5:07
2nd Creep Tumor - 5:08
6 min mark
865 minerals
32 drones 40/44
2 drones almost done
1 larva
2 spawns 1/2 done
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Edit: added 13 pool 16 hatch
13 pool - 1:50
16 hatch - 2:47
4 lings - 3:39
1st Creep Tumor - 4:42
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:53
6 min mark
980 minerals
30 drones 38/44
2 drones half done
2 larva
1 spawn 1/2 done
1 spawn almost done
Inferences:
11 pool is not as good as overlord first when it comes to econ, but not as bad as it looks. Where as the 14 and 15 hatch builds are in the high 900s for minerals @ 6 min, the 11 pool comes out with a 4+ drone lead. I made the mistake of not making a 2nd creep tumor, but just X out one of the spawns building and you still end up with a drone lead and only about 200 minerals behind, a worthwhile trade-off I think.
Hatch first is slightly better economically, but we all know it is far more risky.
The big winner here I think is 13 pool into 14 hatch, it seems to get the best of all worlds. I took the liberty of making my lings 20 seconds earlier than any other build while my hatch is only ~25 seconds later than the hatch first builds. The biggest difference here is that the first creep tumor is about 20 seconds later in comparison.
Thoughts?
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This is interesting and I do like to see people making sure that the conventional wisdom of builds is actually true. I will probably try out 13 pool 14 hatch as a result of this because it seems to not have many holes, it puts out more drones, and a faster pool than the 14 hatch 14 pool. It is difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that "HEY we should all switch to 13 pool 14 hatch" because there are people who spend more hours working on Starcraft a day than most people work and they are going 14 hatch 14 pool.
I believe that the reason 14 hatch 14 pool is prevalent because of creep spread and when that is shown as a variable under in-game circumstances the 13 pool 14 hatch may not be as strong as it appears in your tests.
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A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
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The deal with having a hatchery first is that you are able to put down spine crawlers.
However if the enemy attacks during the process of making the hatchery you wont have a static defence if you got the spawning pool earlier.
Its just a small time gap you are benefiting from.
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Interesting analysis, but it seems like there are a lot of variables changed between the builds so maybe a more stable setting would be to set end game stats. For example, 30 drones, 1 queen, 4 lings, 36/44 food and 1000 minerals and see what time that occurs at for each build. Then there wouldn't be as much difference between when things were built, but still give a concrete answer for efficiency of the build as a whole.
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On November 09 2010 12:59 Bosu wrote:
A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
Yes MLG did show that despite the change to barracks timing and the roach range 14 hatch is still risky on small maps and close positions. I don't think we will be seeing many zerg players stick to the 14 hatch with close positions on metalopalis and it is nice to know what other strong builds are.
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I really don't think the slight economic advantage from hatching first is worth taking away the safety net pool first gives you. There have been many times that lings have popped at just the right time to save me from a bunker/cannon rush that could have really hurt me. Good to see these statistics, nonetheless.
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Could you do some more testing and find out how long it takes to fully saturate both bases when going pool first or hatch first? I'm expecting a fast expand becomes worth more and more the further the game goes.
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On November 09 2010 12:59 Bosu wrote:
A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
Against toss hatch first is way too risky vs a forge + gateway push.
But against terran its fine but you have to have a drone patrol the ramp so they can't double bunker block you. Have to do the same if you want to hatch first vs toss as well ^^.
The reason 14/15 hatch is prefered is because you get 2 queens instantly also rather then 1 queen + you have your expo up and running faster as well.
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i remember idra saying that hatch first was much, much better and a huge advantage
i dont really like these stats, they seem kind of... weird. like why is your supply so high in the 1st one? that seems to throw out the stats to me.
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I play random, so i get the luxury of hatch firsting safely most of the time.
I think this all looks solid, but you have to take into acct if its a 4 or 2 player map into your risk reward mindset.
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I believe there are non-economical reasons to go hatch first (if you can get away with it). First, it gives creep for early harass. Second, you get the chance to use two larva spawns. Third, if means you can forget about oversaturation for a much longer period of time
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I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
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The Zerg Build Order Optimizer shows the most economic build to be 13 pool 16 hatch. I have been meaning to test it but since you have all the stats can you give it a try? Also try stuff in the range: 15 hatch, etc. I guess when the pool is about to finish you delay the drone to get out the faster queen, then drone, then ovie. It would be cool to see something as safe as that actually be economic!
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MrBitter is correct once again. I got for a 15 hatch 14 pool on maps where I think I can get away with it. With that BO, the expo hatch is done a few seconds later than the pool, allowing me to get 2 queens at the same time.
I also find that going hatch first and waiting for the pool to finish actually gives me more flexibility with my larva. If I see something like a 2 gate rush, I can save the 4 larva (3 from original hatch + 1 from expo) to build 8 lings at once rather than making 4 lings with a 14 pool and having to decide whether to expand at 15/16 or getting more lings.
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How did you test that? What does most economic build mean?
For me it means the total mined mineral and then the best would be:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery > transfer 2
16 spawning Pool
16 Overlord
19 queen
23 queen
25 Overlord
i found no build that is able to get more minerals mined at any moment
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Your missing an important benefit of getting hatch first. And that is that you can often get it up before the scout comes to block it with a pylon/engy bay, or the scv/probe itself.
Also vs terran its quite safe to go 14 hatch, 16 pool. If u build the pool right after the hatch, thats 500 minerals u use without building any drones, and that means ur going to have 3 larva for a while, not reproducing any at all.
I do this almost every game vs terran and it times itself quite well. The hatch and the pool will finish at the same time, and you'll just have enough money to start the 2 queens at the same time as well as quick lings if needed.
Also on a side note, the 2nd ovie is kept around the expansion to watch for bunkers or pylon/cannons
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As much as I know from pvz: if you go hatch before pool on certain maps you will have a tough time. if p opens aggressive then your screwed because he will do a shitton of damage. if he opens greedy then your screwed too because you end up on equal bases.
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There a reason why you didn't mention 14 pool 15 hatch which would probably be the most logical economy build for pool-first FE?
Another one that I think is rather common is 13 pool opener (into unknown, maybe 17 I think?), due to it dealing with blocks fast, as well as denying scouting early.
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Time to rerail this topic.
Pylon/bunker blocking can definitely get in the way of your expo hatch when you delay it those 20 seconds. But on the flip side, you're about to have 4 lings much sooner than a hatch first build. Its up to you to decide if that is worth it.
As far as the non-economical and saturation arguments, do you really think 20 seconds on your hatch timing is going to make that big a difference? What about the 40 seconds time difference for getting your pool? What about not fearing a ramp block and spending drones patrolling because you know your lings will be out early enough to handle any nonsense? What about being able to turn your standard build into a roach rush if you see your opponent FEing himself?
There are plenty of reasons NOT to put your hatch down first, and I don't think 20 seconds is going to convince me to go back to a hatch-first build personally.
@ Xapti, that's what I was looking for. I will add a few more builds to the OP when I get home tonight.
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EPT
