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On November 11 2010 02:00 icezar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals? You can run EC to find the fastest way to.... something but not minerals or army value. So do you ask for fastest 30 drones? - it will give you other BO for sure...
He has put in place a random chosen time to compare all the builds. So he compares all the stuff at that point. Seems like a completely valid way to look at possible openings.
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Well maybe I'm using it wrong, but when I set up my standards ( 2 queens, 4 lings, 32 drones) it always comes back with pool first.
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I personally go for 14 hatch/14 pool almost every game on almost every map.
Well my hatch is building I will have a drone patrolling.
"That is a waste the drone won't be able to kill a good kiter".
The drone is not meant to kill anything it is meant to alert me to early cheese. If I see a protoss probe is attacking the patrolling drone I will take 1-2 drones off mining to harass his probe and leave my drone patrolling. If a terran tries to bunker he can't unless he kills my drone. Once again by that time I'm alerted by the game that my drone is under attack and I will take 1-2 drones to help him.
When the storm has passed and the hatch pops I will take the patrolling drone and immediately drop a crawler at my natural. That easily deters my enemy from rushing with a small army.
Once my crawler goes down I start building two queens. The queen at the natural will start spreading creep and the queen at my main will inject larva. The only reason the main queen does not drop a tumor is because I do not need to attach my natural and main together that quick. This is just a preference thing
One crawler and two queens can be a nice force to deter my opponent from trying to guerrilla strike my natural until they have a decent sized army. Also I don't know how many times I have stopped early hellions because I block the ramp with my queens and oh wait don't forget my crawler. That will poke away at the hellions so they do not sit around attacking my hatch.
All and all it works out pretty good for me.
I know a lot of people are trying to find those magic numbers that decide what build is good or bad, but sometimes a good factor is simply what feels fluent to you.
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On November 10 2010 06:17 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers. Hatch first is less production than 10 overpool 15 queen 17 hatch 18 queen. You are correct, of course, that hatch first leaves you with a lot more minerals and earlier creep. Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:42 MrBitter wrote:
Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy. Except when it is. For example, in a build aiming for a rush at 5:00, going 10 overpool lets you build more drones than a later pool, and still get an equally powerful rush due to the extra inject larvae.
I thought it's been shown that overpool is bad in this game, like never use it bad. See:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161771¤tpage=4#65
Would be nice to see skrag test the hatch first vs pool first openings, his results and methods seem pretty reliable.
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I think zergs have to be very smart about placing the hatch first, and revert to a pool hatch build ONLY if the opponent is very aggressive with his scouting worker, or is building eng bay or pylon at the expo location.
So vision is crucial at the expo - there are 3 possible scenarios (vision at the expo is crucial - use an overlord there) :
1 - at 14 food, no probe/scv is present at the expo, lay down the hatch (and go for 14 hatch 14 pool)
2 - at 14 food, a probe/scv comes to scout the main - the drone should be somewhere close to the ramp at that time, and as the probe/scv scouts the main you plant the hatch (and go for 14 hatch 14 pool)
3 - at 14 food, a probe/scv arrives and SITS STILL AT THE EXPO. this means planting a hatch first is very unlikely if the opponent has good micro, and he will also be able to build a pylon / eng bay if you come to harrass with 2 drones. At this point (I may be wrong) I think it's best to opt for a 14 pool 14 gas 19-20 hatch, as with this build you can get 2 or 4 lings to destroy probe/scv/eng bay/pylon that is blocking the expo.
I may be wrong so please tell me if you know a better solution to hatch first blocking.
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Ok now artosis is saying that hatch first is very risky again....wtf.... is there ever going to be a damn standard zerg build that we can rely on ?
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On November 13 2010 19:44 xs101 wrote:
Ok now artosis is saying that hatch first is very risky again....wtf.... is there ever going to be a damn standard zerg build that we can rely on ?
Pool first, stop crying. It's a LITTTTLE bit less good then hatch first economically, /care.
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pool first which one ? 13 pool 16 hatch, 15 pool 17 hatch, 14gas 14pool 20 hatch ? And the thing is if you go pool fist, YOU WILL get your hatch blocked and delayed by a good player, as his scouting drone will be there a lot earlier.
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On November 13 2010 20:16 xs101 wrote:
pool first which one ? 13 pool 16 hatch, 15 pool 17 hatch, 14gas 14pool 20 hatch ? And the thing is if you go pool fist, YOU WILL get your hatch blocked and delayed by a good player, as his scouting drone will be there a lot earlier.
His scouting drone/scv/probe will be there at the same time. Whatever build suits you well. Have an overlord hanging over your expand, react in time.
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That's very helpful. I would like to ask for someone with a lot of experience witch build is more optimal in case he blocks the hatch with a pylon/eng bay or with micro, and how to transition from the non hatch blocking build to the hatch blocking build.
For example - I try to go 14 pool 15 hatch, if hatch fails, I can go maybe 14 pool 16 gas 15 overlord 19-20 hatch (right after 2-4 lings pop out). But this is only my opinion and probably not the optimal solution
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On November 09 2010 15:35 icezar wrote:
How did you test that? What does most economic build mean?
For me it means the total mined mineral and then the best would be:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery > transfer 2
16 spawning Pool
16 Overlord
19 queen
23 queen
25 Overlord
i found no build that is able to get more minerals mined at any moment
that is too risky especially against 2rax and 2gate play
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I always hatch first, (except zvz) if I get blocked (probe/scv's) I take 3 drones and work to kill the drone, and if its delaying too much, I get pool first. I've seen idra do it alot, especially when he in zvt at MLG D.C.
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I love 13 pool 16 hatch. Gives me so good flexibility, fast queens, fast creep spread. I've worked this build out and I use it EVERY game.
13 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor
17 Drone
18 Overlord
18 Spine Crawler
17 Drone
It gives me a good safe start (and offensive if I want) with fast creep and fast spine crawler. It's amazing =D
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On November 11 2010 02:07 DemiAlbedo wrote:I know a lot of people are trying to find those magic numbers that decide what build is good or bad, but sometimes a good factor is simply what feels fluent to you.
Fluency can be trained. If I learn that a new build outperforms my current build, then I'm going to play the new build, and eventually I will become fluent in that.
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Pool first builds are superior in everything except the fact the expansion is easier to block imo. Those 30 seconds or so the hatch is up later make it much easier to block as that is usually the time they will be arriving at your base. At 2 player maps where the other player is garanteed to block your hatch if he wants anyway pool first is superior imo, on many 4 player maps there is the tradeoff of hatch first, knowing you will have it down fast or pool first with the bigger risk of getting it blocked but being less risky agianst everything else.
I think an important thing to note it is that hatch first play is ALOT easier for your opponent when it comes to reading your play as well. The hatch telegraphs the intention to boom and lings won't be there for a long time giving the other player more options to do greedy stuff. For example in PvZ a 17 nexus can get ahead in economy even against 14 hatch 14 pool and is relatively safe. 14 pool however forces the P to be much more careful, doing something like 16 nex 16 forge or some other less efficient build. What you lose potentially by not going hatch first is sometimes more then made up for by what your opponent loses for accounting for aggresion imo.
In that same regard 11 pool is also quite good vs P imo. It's incredibly good against forge FE's by being able to get 6 lings there before any cannons can be placed at good spots to defend a natural. At the same time it forces a zealot that plugs the hole, yet it can still play quite economically (being only a bit worse then 14 pool in that regard).
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I noticed today that going gas into pool against terran works even better than 14 hatch as most of the terrans try to do that 2 rax marine crap they saw on GSL. After their 1st push get demolized they dont know what to do.
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Ok after experimenting a lot I can conclude the following :
14 hatch 14 pool (with gas on 16) and 14 pool 19 hatch (with gas on 17), both builds the geyser gets taken at 2:54 minutes - the result is the SAME, same amount of drones at 5 minutes (20 drones) and at 6 minutes (28 drones), only minor differences.
So basically I have two builds who yield almost identical resutls, but one is for faster creep, the other one is if the expo is blocked, as you lay down the hatch when the first 2 lings pop out.
Here is the 14 pool 17 gas 19 hatch build
14 pool
16 overlord
17 gas
16 pool done - queen, ling egg, hatch when obstacle cleared
The idea behihd this is having an emergency build that has the exact gas timings with the 14 hatch 14 pool one, and to witch I can revert to if expo is blocked.
Ex : at 14 food and 180 minerals drone goes down the ramp, hatch is blocked, I have around 250 minerals, throw down pool and a drone and do the 14 pool 19 hatch build
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For everyone who goes 14 pool 15 hatch/13 pool 16 hatch or whatever pool first build, how are you getting your hatch down? After reading this thread a couple days ago, I started experimented with going back to 14/15 but I always get blocked. always. either a dancing probe/scv or a pylon/ebay block sets me back so i end up going 14 pool 16ish gas then hatch anywhere from 18-21. I also float minerals (even if i try to spend) while waiting to put down the pool.
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Am I missing something? Hatch first builds pvz lose to gateway forge cannon, nexgenius style.
Ive been murdering hatch first builds since I saw that strat.
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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
this is a very good point.. getting two queens out right away along with creep spread can be HUGE for holding off early pressure and getting your economy going. Another reason I like 14 or 15 hatch first is it lets me set up a spine crawler at my expo very quickly if I'm expecting heavy early pressure.. then with the spine crawler and two queens up I'm free to pump drones without too much fear where as if I went later hatch without the spine I would be much more fearful of the incoming pressure and probably end up making more lings instead of drones making my economy that much weaker.....
I really don't think you can dispute that hatch first sets you up for a slightly better mid game as oppose to pool first.. yes pool first is safer against early cheese, but honestly on long rush distance maps it really shouldn't be an issue if you have proper micro and don't let him block your ramp.. which is really easy..
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EPT
