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On November 09 2010 15:10 Subversion wrote:
i remember idra saying that hatch first was much, much better and a huge advantage
i dont really like these stats, they seem kind of... weird. like why is your supply so high in the 1st one? that seems to throw out the stats to me.
This isn't entirely related, but Idra also said, after MLG, that hatch first might not be viable anymore. Not entirely sure if that's the wording he used though.
e: "it worries me a lot, zerg might not be able to fast expand anymore"
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I don't understand why everyone is so gung ho to go hatch first. What good is a 200 mineral bonus if you a) end up having to pull 3+ drones to defend a bunker/pylon block or b) induce a super early expand by your opponent.
I'm starting to wonder if the actual bonus econ from going hatch first is not the fact that it is superior, but rather the fact that all zergs get at least one pair of zerglings the moment their pool completes, and when going hatch first that pool will complete later. What happens if you go 13 or 11 overpool and don't build the first zerglings for a couple minutes? I have half a mind to run my own experiments to find out.
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I think another small downside of the 14 pool 15 hatch versus the 15 hatch 14 pool is that the first one implies you get the gas a bit later, therefor delaying ling speed.
Hatch first you get the gas at 16, before you make an overlord and the first queen, where as pool first you get an ovie (after planting the hatch) and then a queen and THEN the gas.
All in all the gas timing difference is not huge, and you can also delay gas until like 23-24 and double gas if let's say you're going for mutas as I've seen Ogs.Wind do.
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There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results.
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On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results.
ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way.
a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
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Why do you finish the hatch first builds with 4 larva not used while all others with 0 larva left. The builds have the money to be morphing them to drones.
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On November 10 2010 00:14 Marradron wrote:
Why do you finish the hatch first builds with 4 larva not used while all others with 0 larva left. The builds have the money to be morphing them to drones.
Because if you pause the replay on the 6 minute mark the larva are literally in the air because they just spawned.
Every game has flaws in it, but I don't think any single game has anything so wrong that it invalidates my inferences.
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Anyone know what the timings are for 14 pool 13 hatch?
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On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
An early second hatch also lets you get 2 queens faster than you could otherwise. With the extra larva from the expo you have more larva than minerals so it also means your 2 queens can drop early tumors which helps TREMENDOUSLY in pretty much everything you'll be doing for the next 15-30 minutes.
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I personaly like the 14 hatch 13 pool the pool finishs before the hatch and shortly after the hatch finishs so u can make ur queens and few lings rite away along with gettin the creep spread.
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Granted I have only read the OP; however, i believe hatch first whether it is 14/14 or 15/14 is best due to a multiude of reasons:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
2. 2 queens you will get 2 queens nearly at same time throw down 2 creep tumors with first energy and starting your creep higway and expanding it is a halmark of the zerg race arguably the most important macro mechanics.
3. Im on my phone rift now and im tired of typing.
2k diamond zerg.
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Coudl you test 16hatch 15 pool too?
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Try 9 pool but with no lings and queen asap then into expo.
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On November 10 2010 01:39 g50000 wrote:
Granted I have only read the OP; however, i believe hatch first whether it is 14/14 or 15/14 is best due to a multiude of reasons:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
2. 2 queens you will get 2 queens nearly at same time throw down 2 creep tumors with first energy and starting your creep higway and expanding it is a halmark of the zerg race arguably the most important macro mechanics.
3. Im on my phone rift now and im tired of typing.
2k diamond zerg.
<- about 2.2-3k Zerg.
A patrolling Drone won't prevent any Pylon / Canon build that renders your early hatch 100% useless. Overall a patrolling Drone can't do anything but scout and well block ramp pylons.
Getting 2 queens at that time isn't as helpful as you'd think. You have lower minerals already anyways and while spending energy on creep tumor isn't really a waste you do NOT get your economy up that much quicker.
But yeah anyways I still don't get your first point. How the f*** is one Drone supposed to deny any quick Zealot pressure, canon play or marine rush?
Edit:
And I really, really hate playing like this: "So lemme first hatch every game and I'll be screwed in like 40% of the games but got a little bonus in some of them °.^".
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If I have 2 hatches I can build 2 queens at once, I can spend my money without using the queen energy on inject larva exclusively early on (so I can start a creep tumor and still remain economically efficient), and it forces the opponent to attack me early on, lest they fall behind. FE is very strong as zerg. Certain positions and in certain maps it's weaker, but still doable.
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United States17042 Posts
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So many inconsistences in the posted replays.
You have to simulate it to be near perfect (planting hatcheries and pool on the exact mineral counts). It has to be same map, it has to be same build (not 10 ov). Timing is absolutely crucial, you will want your results to reflect the absolute best. So some crazy korean can't just "outdo" your build because he was spamming and you were not.
Also who does creep tumor first? Spew out the initial energy on larva on both hatches and then use the 2nd to build one creep at your main (since it will be close to saturated anyway).
I did a 6 minute test following your standards just on the same map and with slighty better unit handling and got the following results:
14 hatch 14 pool:
14 hatch - 2:05
14 pool - 2:32
2 lings - 3:38
1st and only creep Tumor - 5:13
755 minerals
39 drones (44/44 supply)
1 overlord building (39/40)
2 larva
2 injections done with 3rd one almost done(40/40) and 4th about to start
14hatch - 14pool
14 pool 15 hatch:
14 pool - 1:54
15 hatch - 2:37
2 lings - 3:09 (using extractor trick)
1st and only creep Tumor - 4:47
629 minerals
36 drones (43/44 supply)
1 overlord building (23/25) + 2 drones building (5/17 and 9/17)
0 larva
2 injections done with 3rd one almost done(38/40) and 4th at 32/40
14pool - 15hatch
Normally I do the 14 hatch on maps where I feel safe (metal cross pos/jungle basin/shakuras/LT cross pos) and 15 hatch on maps where I don't feel safe (steppes/blistering/metal close land/LT close land). And in ZvZ I don't do hatch till after roaches period.
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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
Building your second queen just after your first finishes off a pool first gives a very similar energy amount, but I always figured the ability to spinecrawler fast and to sim city your ramp in zvz is really useful.
EDIT: Infact your pool is about 40 seconds faster which means that not only do you get a second queen for about 10 more seconds your first queen is out 40 seconds faster.
Also less likely your expanson will be blocked since on most maps a scout won't hit your base fast enough, you can even get a 14 hatch down on steppes vs a scout after depot terran.
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I am sorry but whole thing is pretty WAY off. I did simulations on build order tester with . 15 hatch/15 pool vs 14gas/14 pool/20 hatch. And my numbers where way different. I was in 40+ food with 15 hatch by 5:10 mark an you are still <40 by 6 min. Reasoning why is because you place 2 tumors for no reason that is 8 larva you missing out on. Which would put u at 41 drones not 33.
Reason why you can and should put tumors first is because you 1) have to scout/patrol ramp/GET GAS!/follow scout drone etc, 2) make buildings (lair/roach/spines) so you DO not have that excess of minerals that are in your set up. So if you do any of this you will be mineral starved with 14 pool, making your drone count much lower.
Sorry but these results are WAY off.
On side not my testing with 15 hatch/15 pool vs 14 gas/14 pool/20 hatch showed 15 hatch about 30 seconds ahead when i was able to get 42 supply with 2 lings 1 gas by about 5:10 with 15 hatch and about same with 14 gas at about 5:40.
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Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy.
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EPT
