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There was a thread up here a week or two ago with some baseless argument about how worthless going for a FE in ZvX is. I did some minor testing with this, and I have personally found that Pool first doesn't miss out on that much econ for the amount of safety it provides.
First thing I set out was a stopping point. I find 6 minutes to be a good amount of time for both hatcheries to be up regardless of the order you build things.
I did not bother building gas or actually doing a build, but if these details are found to be important, we can add them in.
I did put down creep tumors in all games, but did not bother to spread them effectively, so the time difference can add up to more tumors.
Important stats at the 6 min mark:
amount of minerals
amount of drones / supply
drones and overlords that are still building
amount of larva
how far along the next spawn larva is (always were 1/2 way oddly enough)
On to the Replays (There are flaws in all the important stats as I am not perfect and forgot to build a 2nd tumor in one game as well as changed from 2 to 4 lings in the middle of testing)
The Builds:
9 OV 14 hatch 14 pool
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=98
14 hatch - 2:10
14 pool - 2:35
2 lings - 3:40
1st Creep Tumor - 4:41
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:55
6 min mark
925 minerals
31 drones 38/52 (made an extra OV)
2 drones building, just started
4 larva
1 spawn 1/2 way done
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11 pool w/ extractor trick before and after
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=99
11 pool - 1:25
16 hatch - 3:10
2 lings - 3:45
1st Creep Tumor - 4:07
6 min mark
338 minerals
36 drones 43/44
2 drones and 2 overlords building, all under 1/2 way
0 larva
2 spawns 1/2 way done
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15 hatch 14 pool
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=100
15 hatch - 2:15
14 pool - 2:34
4 lings - 3:45
1st Creep Tumor - 4:40
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:58
6 min mark
990 minerals
31 drones 38/44
1 drone and 1 overlord building
4 larva
1 spawn 1/2 way done
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13 pool 14 hatch
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=101
13 pool - 1:50
14 hatch - 2:35
4 lings - 3:21
1st Creep Tumor - 5:07
2nd Creep Tumor - 5:08
6 min mark
865 minerals
32 drones 40/44
2 drones almost done
1 larva
2 spawns 1/2 done
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Edit: added 13 pool 16 hatch
13 pool - 1:50
16 hatch - 2:47
4 lings - 3:39
1st Creep Tumor - 4:42
2nd Creep Tumor - 4:53
6 min mark
980 minerals
30 drones 38/44
2 drones half done
2 larva
1 spawn 1/2 done
1 spawn almost done
Inferences:
11 pool is not as good as overlord first when it comes to econ, but not as bad as it looks. Where as the 14 and 15 hatch builds are in the high 900s for minerals @ 6 min, the 11 pool comes out with a 4+ drone lead. I made the mistake of not making a 2nd creep tumor, but just X out one of the spawns building and you still end up with a drone lead and only about 200 minerals behind, a worthwhile trade-off I think.
Hatch first is slightly better economically, but we all know it is far more risky.
The big winner here I think is 13 pool into 14 hatch, it seems to get the best of all worlds. I took the liberty of making my lings 20 seconds earlier than any other build while my hatch is only ~25 seconds later than the hatch first builds. The biggest difference here is that the first creep tumor is about 20 seconds later in comparison.
Thoughts?
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This is interesting and I do like to see people making sure that the conventional wisdom of builds is actually true. I will probably try out 13 pool 14 hatch as a result of this because it seems to not have many holes, it puts out more drones, and a faster pool than the 14 hatch 14 pool. It is difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that "HEY we should all switch to 13 pool 14 hatch" because there are people who spend more hours working on Starcraft a day than most people work and they are going 14 hatch 14 pool.
I believe that the reason 14 hatch 14 pool is prevalent because of creep spread and when that is shown as a variable under in-game circumstances the 13 pool 14 hatch may not be as strong as it appears in your tests.
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A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
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The deal with having a hatchery first is that you are able to put down spine crawlers.
However if the enemy attacks during the process of making the hatchery you wont have a static defence if you got the spawning pool earlier.
Its just a small time gap you are benefiting from.
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Interesting analysis, but it seems like there are a lot of variables changed between the builds so maybe a more stable setting would be to set end game stats. For example, 30 drones, 1 queen, 4 lings, 36/44 food and 1000 minerals and see what time that occurs at for each build. Then there wouldn't be as much difference between when things were built, but still give a concrete answer for efficiency of the build as a whole.
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On November 09 2010 12:59 Bosu wrote:
A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
Yes MLG did show that despite the change to barracks timing and the roach range 14 hatch is still risky on small maps and close positions. I don't think we will be seeing many zerg players stick to the 14 hatch with close positions on metalopalis and it is nice to know what other strong builds are.
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I really don't think the slight economic advantage from hatching first is worth taking away the safety net pool first gives you. There have been many times that lings have popped at just the right time to save me from a bunker/cannon rush that could have really hurt me. Good to see these statistics, nonetheless.
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Could you do some more testing and find out how long it takes to fully saturate both bases when going pool first or hatch first? I'm expecting a fast expand becomes worth more and more the further the game goes.
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On November 09 2010 12:59 Bosu wrote:
A hatch on 14 is still pretty early. I don't think creep spread is an issue unless its an early pool with a hatch at like 18-20.
I definitely think MLG showed that 14 hatch, at least on maps with close positions, is too risky with pylon/bunker wall possibilities.
Against toss hatch first is way too risky vs a forge + gateway push.
But against terran its fine but you have to have a drone patrol the ramp so they can't double bunker block you. Have to do the same if you want to hatch first vs toss as well ^^.
The reason 14/15 hatch is prefered is because you get 2 queens instantly also rather then 1 queen + you have your expo up and running faster as well.
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i remember idra saying that hatch first was much, much better and a huge advantage
i dont really like these stats, they seem kind of... weird. like why is your supply so high in the 1st one? that seems to throw out the stats to me.
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I play random, so i get the luxury of hatch firsting safely most of the time.
I think this all looks solid, but you have to take into acct if its a 4 or 2 player map into your risk reward mindset.
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I believe there are non-economical reasons to go hatch first (if you can get away with it). First, it gives creep for early harass. Second, you get the chance to use two larva spawns. Third, if means you can forget about oversaturation for a much longer period of time
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I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
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The Zerg Build Order Optimizer shows the most economic build to be 13 pool 16 hatch. I have been meaning to test it but since you have all the stats can you give it a try? Also try stuff in the range: 15 hatch, etc. I guess when the pool is about to finish you delay the drone to get out the faster queen, then drone, then ovie. It would be cool to see something as safe as that actually be economic!
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MrBitter is correct once again. I got for a 15 hatch 14 pool on maps where I think I can get away with it. With that BO, the expo hatch is done a few seconds later than the pool, allowing me to get 2 queens at the same time.
I also find that going hatch first and waiting for the pool to finish actually gives me more flexibility with my larva. If I see something like a 2 gate rush, I can save the 4 larva (3 from original hatch + 1 from expo) to build 8 lings at once rather than making 4 lings with a 14 pool and having to decide whether to expand at 15/16 or getting more lings.
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How did you test that? What does most economic build mean?
For me it means the total mined mineral and then the best would be:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery > transfer 2
16 spawning Pool
16 Overlord
19 queen
23 queen
25 Overlord
i found no build that is able to get more minerals mined at any moment
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Your missing an important benefit of getting hatch first. And that is that you can often get it up before the scout comes to block it with a pylon/engy bay, or the scv/probe itself.
Also vs terran its quite safe to go 14 hatch, 16 pool. If u build the pool right after the hatch, thats 500 minerals u use without building any drones, and that means ur going to have 3 larva for a while, not reproducing any at all.
I do this almost every game vs terran and it times itself quite well. The hatch and the pool will finish at the same time, and you'll just have enough money to start the 2 queens at the same time as well as quick lings if needed.
Also on a side note, the 2nd ovie is kept around the expansion to watch for bunkers or pylon/cannons
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As much as I know from pvz: if you go hatch before pool on certain maps you will have a tough time. if p opens aggressive then your screwed because he will do a shitton of damage. if he opens greedy then your screwed too because you end up on equal bases.
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There a reason why you didn't mention 14 pool 15 hatch which would probably be the most logical economy build for pool-first FE?
Another one that I think is rather common is 13 pool opener (into unknown, maybe 17 I think?), due to it dealing with blocks fast, as well as denying scouting early.
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Time to rerail this topic.
Pylon/bunker blocking can definitely get in the way of your expo hatch when you delay it those 20 seconds. But on the flip side, you're about to have 4 lings much sooner than a hatch first build. Its up to you to decide if that is worth it.
As far as the non-economical and saturation arguments, do you really think 20 seconds on your hatch timing is going to make that big a difference? What about the 40 seconds time difference for getting your pool? What about not fearing a ramp block and spending drones patrolling because you know your lings will be out early enough to handle any nonsense? What about being able to turn your standard build into a roach rush if you see your opponent FEing himself?
There are plenty of reasons NOT to put your hatch down first, and I don't think 20 seconds is going to convince me to go back to a hatch-first build personally.
@ Xapti, that's what I was looking for. I will add a few more builds to the OP when I get home tonight.
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On November 09 2010 15:10 Subversion wrote:
i remember idra saying that hatch first was much, much better and a huge advantage
i dont really like these stats, they seem kind of... weird. like why is your supply so high in the 1st one? that seems to throw out the stats to me.
This isn't entirely related, but Idra also said, after MLG, that hatch first might not be viable anymore. Not entirely sure if that's the wording he used though.
e: "it worries me a lot, zerg might not be able to fast expand anymore"
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I don't understand why everyone is so gung ho to go hatch first. What good is a 200 mineral bonus if you a) end up having to pull 3+ drones to defend a bunker/pylon block or b) induce a super early expand by your opponent.
I'm starting to wonder if the actual bonus econ from going hatch first is not the fact that it is superior, but rather the fact that all zergs get at least one pair of zerglings the moment their pool completes, and when going hatch first that pool will complete later. What happens if you go 13 or 11 overpool and don't build the first zerglings for a couple minutes? I have half a mind to run my own experiments to find out.
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I think another small downside of the 14 pool 15 hatch versus the 15 hatch 14 pool is that the first one implies you get the gas a bit later, therefor delaying ling speed.
Hatch first you get the gas at 16, before you make an overlord and the first queen, where as pool first you get an ovie (after planting the hatch) and then a queen and THEN the gas.
All in all the gas timing difference is not huge, and you can also delay gas until like 23-24 and double gas if let's say you're going for mutas as I've seen Ogs.Wind do.
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There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results.
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On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results.
ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way.
a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
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Why do you finish the hatch first builds with 4 larva not used while all others with 0 larva left. The builds have the money to be morphing them to drones.
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On November 10 2010 00:14 Marradron wrote:
Why do you finish the hatch first builds with 4 larva not used while all others with 0 larva left. The builds have the money to be morphing them to drones.
Because if you pause the replay on the 6 minute mark the larva are literally in the air because they just spawned.
Every game has flaws in it, but I don't think any single game has anything so wrong that it invalidates my inferences.
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Anyone know what the timings are for 14 pool 13 hatch?
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On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
An early second hatch also lets you get 2 queens faster than you could otherwise. With the extra larva from the expo you have more larva than minerals so it also means your 2 queens can drop early tumors which helps TREMENDOUSLY in pretty much everything you'll be doing for the next 15-30 minutes.
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I personaly like the 14 hatch 13 pool the pool finishs before the hatch and shortly after the hatch finishs so u can make ur queens and few lings rite away along with gettin the creep spread.
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Granted I have only read the OP; however, i believe hatch first whether it is 14/14 or 15/14 is best due to a multiude of reasons:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
2. 2 queens you will get 2 queens nearly at same time throw down 2 creep tumors with first energy and starting your creep higway and expanding it is a halmark of the zerg race arguably the most important macro mechanics.
3. Im on my phone rift now and im tired of typing.
2k diamond zerg.
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Coudl you test 16hatch 15 pool too?
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Try 9 pool but with no lings and queen asap then into expo.
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On November 10 2010 01:39 g50000 wrote:
Granted I have only read the OP; however, i believe hatch first whether it is 14/14 or 15/14 is best due to a multiude of reasons:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
2. 2 queens you will get 2 queens nearly at same time throw down 2 creep tumors with first energy and starting your creep higway and expanding it is a halmark of the zerg race arguably the most important macro mechanics.
3. Im on my phone rift now and im tired of typing.
2k diamond zerg.
<- about 2.2-3k Zerg.
A patrolling Drone won't prevent any Pylon / Canon build that renders your early hatch 100% useless. Overall a patrolling Drone can't do anything but scout and well block ramp pylons.
Getting 2 queens at that time isn't as helpful as you'd think. You have lower minerals already anyways and while spending energy on creep tumor isn't really a waste you do NOT get your economy up that much quicker.
But yeah anyways I still don't get your first point. How the f*** is one Drone supposed to deny any quick Zealot pressure, canon play or marine rush?
Edit:
And I really, really hate playing like this: "So lemme first hatch every game and I'll be screwed in like 40% of the games but got a little bonus in some of them °.^".
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If I have 2 hatches I can build 2 queens at once, I can spend my money without using the queen energy on inject larva exclusively early on (so I can start a creep tumor and still remain economically efficient), and it forces the opponent to attack me early on, lest they fall behind. FE is very strong as zerg. Certain positions and in certain maps it's weaker, but still doable.
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United States17042 Posts
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So many inconsistences in the posted replays.
You have to simulate it to be near perfect (planting hatcheries and pool on the exact mineral counts). It has to be same map, it has to be same build (not 10 ov). Timing is absolutely crucial, you will want your results to reflect the absolute best. So some crazy korean can't just "outdo" your build because he was spamming and you were not.
Also who does creep tumor first? Spew out the initial energy on larva on both hatches and then use the 2nd to build one creep at your main (since it will be close to saturated anyway).
I did a 6 minute test following your standards just on the same map and with slighty better unit handling and got the following results:
14 hatch 14 pool:
14 hatch - 2:05
14 pool - 2:32
2 lings - 3:38
1st and only creep Tumor - 5:13
755 minerals
39 drones (44/44 supply)
1 overlord building (39/40)
2 larva
2 injections done with 3rd one almost done(40/40) and 4th about to start
14hatch - 14pool
14 pool 15 hatch:
14 pool - 1:54
15 hatch - 2:37
2 lings - 3:09 (using extractor trick)
1st and only creep Tumor - 4:47
629 minerals
36 drones (43/44 supply)
1 overlord building (23/25) + 2 drones building (5/17 and 9/17)
0 larva
2 injections done with 3rd one almost done(38/40) and 4th at 32/40
14pool - 15hatch
Normally I do the 14 hatch on maps where I feel safe (metal cross pos/jungle basin/shakuras/LT cross pos) and 15 hatch on maps where I don't feel safe (steppes/blistering/metal close land/LT close land). And in ZvZ I don't do hatch till after roaches period.
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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
Building your second queen just after your first finishes off a pool first gives a very similar energy amount, but I always figured the ability to spinecrawler fast and to sim city your ramp in zvz is really useful.
EDIT: Infact your pool is about 40 seconds faster which means that not only do you get a second queen for about 10 more seconds your first queen is out 40 seconds faster.
Also less likely your expanson will be blocked since on most maps a scout won't hit your base fast enough, you can even get a 14 hatch down on steppes vs a scout after depot terran.
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I am sorry but whole thing is pretty WAY off. I did simulations on build order tester with . 15 hatch/15 pool vs 14gas/14 pool/20 hatch. And my numbers where way different. I was in 40+ food with 15 hatch by 5:10 mark an you are still <40 by 6 min. Reasoning why is because you place 2 tumors for no reason that is 8 larva you missing out on. Which would put u at 41 drones not 33.
Reason why you can and should put tumors first is because you 1) have to scout/patrol ramp/GET GAS!/follow scout drone etc, 2) make buildings (lair/roach/spines) so you DO not have that excess of minerals that are in your set up. So if you do any of this you will be mineral starved with 14 pool, making your drone count much lower.
Sorry but these results are WAY off.
On side not my testing with 15 hatch/15 pool vs 14 gas/14 pool/20 hatch showed 15 hatch about 30 seconds ahead when i was able to get 42 supply with 2 lings 1 gas by about 5:10 with 15 hatch and about same with 14 gas at about 5:40.
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Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy.
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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game.
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On November 09 2010 13:05 Karthane wrote:
I really don't think the slight economic advantage from hatching first is worth taking away the safety net pool first gives you. There have been many times that lings have popped at just the right time to save me from a bunker/cannon rush that could have really hurt me. Good to see these statistics, nonetheless.
I agree with Karthane. I usually go 14 pool 14 gas, and frankly, that little burst of 6 Zerglings at 15 food is life-saving more often than the slight economic boost with a 14 hatch would be. Granted, I have been testing 15 Hatch, 14 Pool, 13 Gas against Terran (since for the most part, they turtle longer), but 2v2s have been soaking up a lot of my time as of late.
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On November 10 2010 03:07 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 01:39 g50000 wrote:
1. A lot of t/p try cheesy shit so put a drone on their scouting scv/probe and put another patrolling ur expo. You think "hey that costs u 2 workers", although true, if you catch a person trying to cheese and hold it off, you will be in an extremely commanding position.
A patrolling Drone won't prevent any Pylon / Canon build that renders your early hatch 100% useless. Overall a patrolling Drone can't do anything but scout and well block ramp pylons.But yeah anyways I still don't get your first point. How the f*** is one Drone supposed to deny any quick Zealot pressure, canon play or marine rush?
Blocking the ramp pylons/bunkers is the whole point of the patrol drone, that way you can reinforce with more drones and shut the cannon build down (they die surprisely fast when building)
The problem with hatch after pool is the fact that on most maps the scout will arrive and block your hatch preventing it from being built unless you send 3 drones (2 will slowly kill it, but a good kiter will keep it a live just long enough to fuck up your timing or build a pylon). 14 hatch on the other hand is a sure thing (aside from weirdo scouting).
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When i go hatch first, i notice it gives me a pretty huge advantage mid-late game.
Because the 2nd hatch came so early, the # of minerals remaining at my main/natural stay very close. When playing against a player that took a later expansion, I notice that their main becomes mined out while I still have a considerable amount left at my main-.
Therefore even though we have mined the same # of absolute minerals, they have to take a 3rd base just to keep their resource collection rate in line with mine on 2 bases.
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I have had success going 14 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 14 pool in almost any situation except ZvZ close positions. In the case your opponent scouts it and goes for a game ending harass (drops a forge and throws down cannons at your ramp, 2gate boosted pressure, bunker marine rush) I still can fend it off and end up ahead. You just need to be patient. If you see the bunker going down, just rally your lings and queen away and have them hold position or micro them if they kite w/ marines. Build one spine out of range. Wait till the hatch is down around 20% health and then move in with all your lings and 2 queens and crush it while moving the spine in range. Once the bunker dies and/or the last cannon is damaged pull your stuff back and let the spine finish it to reduce units lost.
I almost welcome this all-in ish attempts to stop the hatch.
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On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers.
Hatch first is less production than 10 overpool 15 queen 17 hatch 18 queen. You are correct, of course, that hatch first leaves you with a lot more minerals and earlier creep.
On November 10 2010 03:42 MrBitter wrote:
Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy.
Except when it is. For example, in a build aiming for a rush at 5:00, going 10 overpool lets you build more drones than a later pool, and still get an equally powerful rush due to the extra inject larvae.
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On November 10 2010 03:47 MontagneBleu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general. If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game.
You use one queen to spawn larva and the other to spread creep.
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Against Terran even on close positions I have no issues with 14 hatch. I like it when I get bunker rushed now. Just pull 4-5 drones, they probably are bringing back up SCVs so you wont be at a loss and any lost mining time you have will quickly be made up out of 2 hatcheries producing. Same thing with a pylon rush. I have my 2nd overlord over my natural and I always follow around the probe, if he lays pylons down I pull 4 drones and get at it.
However I normally 14 Pool/15 or 16 Hatch versus toss anyway.
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What about 13 pool 16 hatch with 2 queens from the main, one from the natural? Creep spread is good, and you have the option of making lings and spines very early if necessary.
In an unscientific run-through vs AI on a novice map I built up to 42 supply, 3 queens, 3 sets of lings, 30 drones, metabolic boost on the way, with 2 active creep tumors (one from main->nat, one pushing out from the natural) and 100 gas with one geyser active (18 gas after OL) by the 6:00 mark. Not an optimal run-through, supply blocked once and made extra lings instead of pure drones, but it still felt solid.
edit: hmm, didn't do a mineral-only test, but I feel like geyser timing is important too. Slowlings can get kited pretty hard, and you'll need some gas for roaches if you go that way.
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Why would you plant hatch on 16 when you can afford it at 15?
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It's great to see actual tests on this, I've wondered for a while if hatch first really was economically superior because the early Queen is just so helpful for defending cheese/droning up/creep spread.
Based on these numbers, I would much rather have the early pool, allowing me to defend against Zerg/Protoss all-ins than the minor econ advantage granted by a Hatch first build.
NesTea and FruitDealer may be able to defend a bunker rush with drones alone, but I sure as hell can't.
EDIT: I also plan to do some testing with this later when I get home, thanks for getting me motivated!
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The creep spread for hatch first is absolutely huge, especially against terran players. I always open hatch first against terran. Bunker/marine rushes are much easier to hold off than toss cannon or 2-gate. You get two tumors instead of one, it really makes a huge difference in the mid game when your creep is halfway to their base. You should be able to get a faster lair IF you are going for an extremely fast lair, because only 1 queen has to build from each hatch, not 2 queens from your main. You get 2 extra food earlier and your second queen earlier.
On the other hand, for smaller maps (especially against protoss,) opening pool first is much safer mostly because you can easily transition into a lot of other builds based on scouting. You can roach rush, baneling bust, FE between 16-21, 1-base muta... You better be sure your opponent isn't doing any early pressure if you open hatch first on Steppes.
In ZvZ it is practical to go hatch first if you can scout a pool 14 or later.
I've heard a lot of people say that the marginal economic gains from hatch first aren't worth the risk. Just a suggestion: maybe you should work on defending the early pressure until you are comfortable with the slightly larger risk of hatch first. It is clearly the better opening supposing no pressure is applied or if early pressure is fended off; there should be no doubting that. If you get to the point where you can fend off 9/10 bunker rushes, hatch first becomes a no brainer.
Every thing you do in SC, you want to do it as GREEDILY as possible without the enemy being able to take advantage. You want to drone as hard as you can and barely fend off that first push, setting up for a great midgame. You want to hatch first because 8/10 games the opponent wont pressure you and the two times they do, you'll be confident in knowing you can fend it off and take an even greater lead.
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Added 13 pool 16 hatch stats to the OP, which seems to blow all other openings away.
Surplus of larva, tons of minerals, tumor timing is only about 10 seconds slower than hatch first hatch timing is about 30 seconds slower. Lings come out 5 seconds sooner.
Zerg BO Optimizer wins so far.
I am strapped for time, so I can't sit down and do all the tests I want at the moment. But so far, hatch first is dead, and that's not-so-much a bad thing.
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On November 10 2010 22:45 Jermstuddog wrote:
Added 13 pool 16 hatch stats to the OP, which seems to blow all other openings away.
Surplus of larva, tons of minerals, tumor timing is only about 10 seconds slower than hatch first hatch timing is about 30 seconds slower. Lings come out 5 seconds sooner.
Zerg BO Optimizer wins so far.
I am strapped for time, so I can't sit down and do all the tests I want at the moment. But so far, hatch first is dead, and that's not-so-much a bad thing.
How did you use Zerg BO Optimizer in this?
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13 pool 16 hatch is what the BO optimizer suggests for most economical.
My elementary tests agree.
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Pool first is much worse off vs hellion builds depending on your Zerg playstyle.
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On November 10 2010 06:21 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:47 MontagneBleu wrote:On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general. If you 2 hatch and 2 queen, im not sure you have enough mineral to spend it on all larvae?? I mean i've got always a gas running by that time, and it clearly wasting queen energy if a inject 2x at that point of the game. You use one queen to spawn larva and the other to spread creep.
You actually spread creep with both. You don't need larva inject at all.
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On November 11 2010 01:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
13 pool 16 hatch is what the BO optimizer suggests for most economical.
My elementary tests agree.
How exactly did you define "most economical" for EC input?
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What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals?
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On November 11 2010 01:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals?
You can run EC to find the fastest way to.... something but not minerals or army value.
So do you ask for fastest 30 drones? - it will give you other BO for sure...
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On November 11 2010 02:00 icezar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
What gives me the highest number of drones and minerals? You can run EC to find the fastest way to.... something but not minerals or army value. So do you ask for fastest 30 drones? - it will give you other BO for sure...
He has put in place a random chosen time to compare all the builds. So he compares all the stuff at that point. Seems like a completely valid way to look at possible openings.
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Well maybe I'm using it wrong, but when I set up my standards ( 2 queens, 4 lings, 32 drones) it always comes back with pool first.
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I personally go for 14 hatch/14 pool almost every game on almost every map.
Well my hatch is building I will have a drone patrolling.
"That is a waste the drone won't be able to kill a good kiter".
The drone is not meant to kill anything it is meant to alert me to early cheese. If I see a protoss probe is attacking the patrolling drone I will take 1-2 drones off mining to harass his probe and leave my drone patrolling. If a terran tries to bunker he can't unless he kills my drone. Once again by that time I'm alerted by the game that my drone is under attack and I will take 1-2 drones to help him.
When the storm has passed and the hatch pops I will take the patrolling drone and immediately drop a crawler at my natural. That easily deters my enemy from rushing with a small army.
Once my crawler goes down I start building two queens. The queen at the natural will start spreading creep and the queen at my main will inject larva. The only reason the main queen does not drop a tumor is because I do not need to attach my natural and main together that quick. This is just a preference thing
One crawler and two queens can be a nice force to deter my opponent from trying to guerrilla strike my natural until they have a decent sized army. Also I don't know how many times I have stopped early hellions because I block the ramp with my queens and oh wait don't forget my crawler. That will poke away at the hellions so they do not sit around attacking my hatch.
All and all it works out pretty good for me.
I know a lot of people are trying to find those magic numbers that decide what build is good or bad, but sometimes a good factor is simply what feels fluent to you.
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On November 10 2010 06:17 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On November 10 2010 00:07 JTPROG wrote:
There is no reason to get a hatch right after pool. Get your second hatch around 26 supply (after a 10 pool for fast queens + drones) for good results. ye and then the 4gate hits when your hatch is at 60% and you have worse income,no crawlers and not enough production to keep up with the P in any way. a second hatch helps with all of that . it greatly increases your income once you have more then 19 drones , greatly increases your production and enables you to defend with crawlers. Hatch first is less production than 10 overpool 15 queen 17 hatch 18 queen. You are correct, of course, that hatch first leaves you with a lot more minerals and earlier creep. Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:42 MrBitter wrote:
Woah, wtf is with people suggesting 10 pool...
Debating whether you should go pool on 14 or hatch on 14 is one thing.
Going 10 pool, however, is never going to be good for your economy. Except when it is. For example, in a build aiming for a rush at 5:00, going 10 overpool lets you build more drones than a later pool, and still get an equally powerful rush due to the extra inject larvae.
I thought it's been shown that overpool is bad in this game, like never use it bad. See:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161771¤tpage=4#65
Would be nice to see skrag test the hatch first vs pool first openings, his results and methods seem pretty reliable.
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I think zergs have to be very smart about placing the hatch first, and revert to a pool hatch build ONLY if the opponent is very aggressive with his scouting worker, or is building eng bay or pylon at the expo location.
So vision is crucial at the expo - there are 3 possible scenarios (vision at the expo is crucial - use an overlord there) :
1 - at 14 food, no probe/scv is present at the expo, lay down the hatch (and go for 14 hatch 14 pool)
2 - at 14 food, a probe/scv comes to scout the main - the drone should be somewhere close to the ramp at that time, and as the probe/scv scouts the main you plant the hatch (and go for 14 hatch 14 pool)
3 - at 14 food, a probe/scv arrives and SITS STILL AT THE EXPO. this means planting a hatch first is very unlikely if the opponent has good micro, and he will also be able to build a pylon / eng bay if you come to harrass with 2 drones. At this point (I may be wrong) I think it's best to opt for a 14 pool 14 gas 19-20 hatch, as with this build you can get 2 or 4 lings to destroy probe/scv/eng bay/pylon that is blocking the expo.
I may be wrong so please tell me if you know a better solution to hatch first blocking.
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Ok now artosis is saying that hatch first is very risky again....wtf.... is there ever going to be a damn standard zerg build that we can rely on ?
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On November 13 2010 19:44 xs101 wrote:
Ok now artosis is saying that hatch first is very risky again....wtf.... is there ever going to be a damn standard zerg build that we can rely on ?
Pool first, stop crying. It's a LITTTTLE bit less good then hatch first economically, /care.
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pool first which one ? 13 pool 16 hatch, 15 pool 17 hatch, 14gas 14pool 20 hatch ? And the thing is if you go pool fist, YOU WILL get your hatch blocked and delayed by a good player, as his scouting drone will be there a lot earlier.
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On November 13 2010 20:16 xs101 wrote:
pool first which one ? 13 pool 16 hatch, 15 pool 17 hatch, 14gas 14pool 20 hatch ? And the thing is if you go pool fist, YOU WILL get your hatch blocked and delayed by a good player, as his scouting drone will be there a lot earlier.
His scouting drone/scv/probe will be there at the same time. Whatever build suits you well. Have an overlord hanging over your expand, react in time.
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That's very helpful. I would like to ask for someone with a lot of experience witch build is more optimal in case he blocks the hatch with a pylon/eng bay or with micro, and how to transition from the non hatch blocking build to the hatch blocking build.
For example - I try to go 14 pool 15 hatch, if hatch fails, I can go maybe 14 pool 16 gas 15 overlord 19-20 hatch (right after 2-4 lings pop out). But this is only my opinion and probably not the optimal solution
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On November 09 2010 15:35 icezar wrote:
How did you test that? What does most economic build mean?
For me it means the total mined mineral and then the best would be:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery > transfer 2
16 spawning Pool
16 Overlord
19 queen
23 queen
25 Overlord
i found no build that is able to get more minerals mined at any moment
that is too risky especially against 2rax and 2gate play
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I always hatch first, (except zvz) if I get blocked (probe/scv's) I take 3 drones and work to kill the drone, and if its delaying too much, I get pool first. I've seen idra do it alot, especially when he in zvt at MLG D.C.
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I love 13 pool 16 hatch. Gives me so good flexibility, fast queens, fast creep spread. I've worked this build out and I use it EVERY game.
13 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Extractor
17 Drone
18 Overlord
18 Spine Crawler
17 Drone
It gives me a good safe start (and offensive if I want) with fast creep and fast spine crawler. It's amazing =D
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On November 11 2010 02:07 DemiAlbedo wrote:I know a lot of people are trying to find those magic numbers that decide what build is good or bad, but sometimes a good factor is simply what feels fluent to you.
Fluency can be trained. If I learn that a new build outperforms my current build, then I'm going to play the new build, and eventually I will become fluent in that.
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Pool first builds are superior in everything except the fact the expansion is easier to block imo. Those 30 seconds or so the hatch is up later make it much easier to block as that is usually the time they will be arriving at your base. At 2 player maps where the other player is garanteed to block your hatch if he wants anyway pool first is superior imo, on many 4 player maps there is the tradeoff of hatch first, knowing you will have it down fast or pool first with the bigger risk of getting it blocked but being less risky agianst everything else.
I think an important thing to note it is that hatch first play is ALOT easier for your opponent when it comes to reading your play as well. The hatch telegraphs the intention to boom and lings won't be there for a long time giving the other player more options to do greedy stuff. For example in PvZ a 17 nexus can get ahead in economy even against 14 hatch 14 pool and is relatively safe. 14 pool however forces the P to be much more careful, doing something like 16 nex 16 forge or some other less efficient build. What you lose potentially by not going hatch first is sometimes more then made up for by what your opponent loses for accounting for aggresion imo.
In that same regard 11 pool is also quite good vs P imo. It's incredibly good against forge FE's by being able to get 6 lings there before any cannons can be placed at good spots to defend a natural. At the same time it forces a zealot that plugs the hole, yet it can still play quite economically (being only a bit worse then 14 pool in that regard).
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I noticed today that going gas into pool against terran works even better than 14 hatch as most of the terrans try to do that 2 rax marine crap they saw on GSL. After their 1st push get demolized they dont know what to do.
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Ok after experimenting a lot I can conclude the following :
14 hatch 14 pool (with gas on 16) and 14 pool 19 hatch (with gas on 17), both builds the geyser gets taken at 2:54 minutes - the result is the SAME, same amount of drones at 5 minutes (20 drones) and at 6 minutes (28 drones), only minor differences.
So basically I have two builds who yield almost identical resutls, but one is for faster creep, the other one is if the expo is blocked, as you lay down the hatch when the first 2 lings pop out.
Here is the 14 pool 17 gas 19 hatch build
14 pool
16 overlord
17 gas
16 pool done - queen, ling egg, hatch when obstacle cleared
The idea behihd this is having an emergency build that has the exact gas timings with the 14 hatch 14 pool one, and to witch I can revert to if expo is blocked.
Ex : at 14 food and 180 minerals drone goes down the ramp, hatch is blocked, I have around 250 minerals, throw down pool and a drone and do the 14 pool 19 hatch build
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For everyone who goes 14 pool 15 hatch/13 pool 16 hatch or whatever pool first build, how are you getting your hatch down? After reading this thread a couple days ago, I started experimented with going back to 14/15 but I always get blocked. always. either a dancing probe/scv or a pylon/ebay block sets me back so i end up going 14 pool 16ish gas then hatch anywhere from 18-21. I also float minerals (even if i try to spend) while waiting to put down the pool.
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Am I missing something? Hatch first builds pvz lose to gateway forge cannon, nexgenius style.
Ive been murdering hatch first builds since I saw that strat.
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On November 09 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like the advantage of going hatch first isn't directly tied to economy (tho indirectly it certainly is) but to the fact that you get both queens out much sooner, resulting in more larva, faster creep spread, and a stronger mid game in general.
this is a very good point.. getting two queens out right away along with creep spread can be HUGE for holding off early pressure and getting your economy going. Another reason I like 14 or 15 hatch first is it lets me set up a spine crawler at my expo very quickly if I'm expecting heavy early pressure.. then with the spine crawler and two queens up I'm free to pump drones without too much fear where as if I went later hatch without the spine I would be much more fearful of the incoming pressure and probably end up making more lings instead of drones making my economy that much weaker.....
I really don't think you can dispute that hatch first sets you up for a slightly better mid game as oppose to pool first.. yes pool first is safer against early cheese, but honestly on long rush distance maps it really shouldn't be an issue if you have proper micro and don't let him block your ramp.. which is really easy..
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On November 17 2010 01:29 Champ24 wrote:
Am I missing something? Hatch first builds pvz lose to gateway forge cannon, nexgenius style.
Ive been murdering hatch first builds since I saw that strat.
yes you are, watch game 3 round 64, not sure which pvz. I think it was kry Something dude, one with sick ling bling style vs t. He fend of gate/forge and auto wins, on CLOSE positions on DQ. so ya you are missing something.
Same thing goes for 2 rax/svcs all ins vs 15 hatch. Sure it seems strong on other hand one of the games in GSL (hopefully this isnt too much of a spoiler) it was defended and resulted in autoloss.
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At work; any way to provide more detail?
I lay a pylon behind the mineral line of the expo and warp in 2 cannons, and more pylons/cannons as necessary. Only way to kill it is with drones, but you can fend it off. Lings arrive just as your chrono zealot gets there.
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EPT
