EPTThe main issue with Terran Mech play in SCII is that T has no good AA unit beyond the marine vs protoss. I think the only way you are going to get away with this is biomech with marines.
[D] GoOdy's Mech TvP - Page 4
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
The main issue with Terran Mech play in SCII is that T has no good AA unit beyond the marine vs protoss. I think the only way you are going to get away with this is biomech with marines. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
I think the main reason is that it is simply harder to play. It is more like in bw. One wrong move and you can be caught out of position and your whole army dies. MMM is just a lot more forgiving. You can engage in wrong spots with inferior numbers and get out of the battle with concussive shells and stim without really losing too much stuff if you don't get trapped by forcefields. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 30 2010 02:33 PredY wrote: i can't agree with avilo ground P army has never been the problem for ghost mech build. it's voidrays and carriers ...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third. But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them. | ||
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ComTrav
United States1093 Posts
It seems counter-intuitive to me that mech's slow, hard-hitting units should lend itself to this style. Certainly in mech TvZ a strong mech Terran will crush a zerg with even foodcount. | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1259 Posts
On October 30 2010 13:23 ComTrav wrote: Anyone else watch the replays and notice that, in a lot of the games he wins, Goody does a lot of harass with hellions or tank drops, and has a large food lead in the big confrontation? It seems counter-intuitive to me that mech's slow, hard-hitting units should lend itself to this style. Certainly in mech TvZ a strong mech Terran will crush a zerg with even foodcount. I'm just going through all the games now because I'm wanting to cast a couple and one thing I've noticed is that in almost all of the games, Goody does a very early 1/2 marauder push with scv/marine assistance, and seemingly always gets about a 6-7 worker lead. I'm not saying that's why he's winning these games in the replay pack, but it's a significant boost to the mid-game attacks he pushes onto the opponent - as their are 'not in' the mid-game because of the need to catchup workers, or they just haven't macrod up sufficiently to that point. | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote: ...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third. But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them. Pretty much all true. Before the 50 to 35+15 vs armored tank damage nerf PredY would have been right but zlots are beastly against mech again. If they are gunna keep the damage the way it is they are going to need to make the tank cheaper. 2 supply and 100 gas maybe. The way blizzard is going about balancing Terran is making it so MMM are the only useful units. Now overall I'm not saying anything is imba or anything but it's just dumb that becasue the marauders are too strong they weakend everything around it and strengthened other races counters and such so now it takes 4 nukes to kill a nexus because the marauder was too strong.... and tanks are only useful for killing marines and banelings in TvT and TvZ. i would gladly take some marauder nerfs so long as they buffed the mech units enough to compensate in cost effectiveness and overall game balance. | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote: ...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third. But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them. Based on your profile you seem experienced enough (1900+ and ~55%). But at 1900+ and ~70%, PredY is facing tougher people on the ladder. At least two 2300-2400 Protoss has trouble breaking PredY's mech with ground. aTnSocke tries in this game and Welmu mentions that he lost to PredY's mech with ground several times in this thread. However, aTnSocke succeeded with a Void Ray and ground mix. Based on these two highly ranked Protoss, the evidence is pretty clear that Void Rays + ground and not pure ground will break well played mech. I'd be interested in any replays you have to offer against similarly skilled opponents that support your point. Corwin | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote:But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... I feel like there's got to be some way to use Terran macro mechanics as they are to get around that "can't re-macro as fast as other races" problem. For example: Aggressively expand with Orbital Commands even if you might not have the SCVs to fully saturate the base. The main purpose of this is to get gas as fast as you can for your tank-heavy army, but also so that you end up with 4-5 Orbital commands by the time you max out. Then you start replacing your SCVs with MULEs so your maxed Terran ball has more units than their maxed army + 80 workers. Since Terran units work best in a ball, the effectiveness of your army *should* be greater than theirs, and you won't have to re-macro the whole thing at once. It will be up to the other player to chip away at you. Is this reasonable? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Game 1: vs Hasu on DQ. Goody tries some cheesy shit, which is not helped by the longer positions. It initially works ok for him but he tries a bit too hard and it falls apart. Then his expansion is late, his transition poor, his scouting info lacklustre and his little push easily thwarted. I'm unsure if hasu got 2 gate voids because he knew what goody would do or because that's soemthing he likes to do. Game 2: vs Steve on Scrap This one goes for a bit longer, but it definitely highlights a few things: 1) If your army dies, you're going to have a very hard time maintaining aggression. This can be seen by the fact that goody attacks ONCE in a 36 minute game (excluding all the hellion motherfuckery) 2) Void rays and immortals are dicks. Gateway units are easily handled by mech, but the voids and immortals demand you get lots of vikings and ghosts. The immortals simply take too much of a pounding. It might be possible to deal with voids by upgrading Thor weapons, as they do +4 for each upgrade, but I am doubtful. 3) blue flame hellions are really good at roasting probes, but this can be stopped by BUILDING SOME FUCKING PHOTON CANNONS! ARGH! Wanted to choke the protoss to death for losing 60 probes at one expansion, easily prevented by building 2 or 3 cannons. 4) The protoss knocks the Rocks down 34 minutes in. He could have knocked them down and threatened two locations about 8 minutes into the game, but doesn't. Shitty protoss play! Game 3 vs Flig. The conc shell early push has killed like a billionprobes. this game doesn't go for very long. Not very convinced about much here, except a bit of naff luck by the P player. Will keep watching, and write a longer post/test this playstyle out myself once I am properly convinced. EDIT- and a good few of these games are prepatch 1.1.2, which (I would imagine) affect Protoss's willingness to build void rays. I think the above replays may have been last patch. Shit. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
to shlowpoke: ye i do orbitals on almost every expo when i mech just to have enough scans to see transition into air units by protoss, and replacing scvs with mules in late game is a good idea i've thought about it too but haven't really put into practise yet, but it should definately work tho it might be risky business  i've realized i should open blue flame hellions in basically every games when i scout protoss is not doing a cheesy shit (f.e. 4warpgate), but that can be very tricky because sometimes you can't scout well. the thing is once you go siege expand and don't pressure enough, you can get into situation when you just can't win macro game, and even protoss with much better eco will beat you with ground army. about goody's playstyle: tbh, most of the time i don't really like his opening since he usually doesn't make many marines and his startport is late = freeloss vs voidrays i like is harass style tho i know it's not easy when playing a good protoss that builds pylon walls and have good map control. recently i started trying bio+mech as well, mainly because people that know i like to go mech now gets really fast voidrays and i stomp them with marine+vikings the main sad thing tho is that protoss air can be countered by only marines and vikings, those which can be easily countered by protoss(ie. storm) but i won't stop trying! | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
First is his opening. It's very safe, don't get me wrong. It's covered against almost any early game protoss motherfuckery, like 4gate, dt's, void ray busts, 1 gate colossus. The wall-off handles it neatly, and the tanks and vikings complement the wall. Not a lot, if anything, will ever get through that. What's bad is that it doesn't translate into a very strong pressure when the protoss plays 2 gate robo, like what happened in this game. Perhaps He merely controlled it wrong, but a similar situation occured in the Shakuras Plateau game vs Nightend. Both times he has a useless medivac and viking sitting around, whilst the tanks and marines get ripped up. But he NEEDS that starport and the stuff coming out of it to be safe with his wall-off. Whilst some pressure is done, and he does get to expand off of it, he also loses a bunch of tanks, which is bad. He cannot be aggressive without tanks. Period. It also results in a later expansion, and this is a MU where Terran are supposed to be ahead in expansions! This is one strength of Rax openings, like 2 rax ghost FE, or the 1 rax conc shell pressure into FE. A 1/1/1 opening cannot do this. The mid and lategames do not really produce a significantly better force through virtue of it beign tanks. A big part of this was poor ghost control, but still, Adelscott has like 4k resources banked up from his 6 bases. If he was macroing properly, good ghost emp's still wouldn't matter as Goody would be suffocated by the mass of Protoss units. And immortals are still, wtfinsane strong against Mech. I don't think I will be testing this playstyle out myself. Although, I am somewhat tempted to experiment with either a TvT-esque 1 rax reactor, 1 fac siege expand, or a ghost expansion into mech transition (with very little, if any, starport assistance), particularly on a map like DQ or JB where protoss get 2 extremely safe bases and hide behind sentries. Getting some tanks in there seems like a very good way to smash their turtely ways (or just contain them until they cry uncle) | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On October 31 2010 19:17 iaguz wrote: Watched his vs Adelscott on LT game, where he loses. Many flaws are exposed here. First is his opening. It's very safe, don't get me wrong. It's covered against almost any early game protoss motherfuckery, like 4gate, dt's, void ray busts, 1 gate colossus. The wall-off handles it neatly, and the tanks and vikings complement the wall. Not a lot, if anything, will ever get through that. What's bad is that it doesn't translate into a very strong pressure when the protoss plays 2 gate robo, like what happened in this game. Perhaps He merely controlled it wrong, but a similar situation occured in the Shakuras Plateau game vs Nightend. Both times he has a useless medivac and viking sitting around, whilst the tanks and marines get ripped up. But he NEEDS that starport and the stuff coming out of it to be safe with his wall-off. Whilst some pressure is done, and he does get to expand off of it, he also loses a bunch of tanks, which is bad. He cannot be aggressive without tanks. Period. It also results in a later expansion, and this is a MU where Terran are supposed to be ahead in expansions! This is one strength of Rax openings, like 2 rax ghost FE, or the 1 rax conc shell pressure into FE. A 1/1/1 opening cannot do this. The mid and lategames do not really produce a significantly better force through virtue of it beign tanks. A big part of this was poor ghost control, but still, Adelscott has like 4k resources banked up from his 6 bases. If he was macroing properly, good ghost emp's still wouldn't matter as Goody would be suffocated by the mass of Protoss units. And immortals are still, wtfinsane strong against Mech. I don't think I will be testing this playstyle out myself. Although, I am somewhat tempted to experiment with either a TvT-esque 1 rax reactor, 1 fac siege expand, or a ghost expansion into mech transition (with very little, if any, starport assistance), particularly on a map like DQ or JB where protoss get 2 extremely safe bases and hide behind sentries. Getting some tanks in there seems like a very good way to smash their turtely ways (or just contain them until they cry uncle) I would just like the point out that this is not going to ever happen since the Medivac speed nerf and the Nexus buff, which allows P players to 1 Gate FE without fear anymore of a Maurader doom drop blowing up any Nexus they may have. Most P players are beginning to switch to 1 Gate FE because it is basically unkillable except by a total all in blind counter, and it transitions the P into late game very quickly, allowing them to get Colossai/Templars and walk all over the T. Basically any 1 Gate FE play will walk all over this since the P will be so far ahead economically that he can just walk all over the T with massive armies over and over again. Just not very sound vs a P macro player. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 29 2010 18:21 PredY wrote: no ground army of protoss can beat 200/200 mech army of terran with ghosts, the air is only way, unfortunately the air is so strong the vikings sometimes aren't gonna cut it, which is pretty unfortunate edit: similar upgrades Have you played against any P using zealot/archon? My Ghost micro could have been better, but it felt like tanks just didn't have the punch I needed to tear through waves of archons. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On November 01 2010 05:32 PanzerKing wrote: Have you played against any P using zealot/archon? My Ghost micro could have been better, but it felt like tanks just didn't have the punch I needed to tear through waves of archons. i must say i haven't but if you have enough hellions to kill the zealots it should be fine i think? gotta target fire the archons with tanks so you don't kill your own units just like in sc1that's just theory here and if he sneaks zealot behind your army it's damaging, but if you see it coming i think it should be fine | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
aTnSocke (P) vs. ServyOa (T) Game 1 aTnSocke (P) vs. ServyOa (T) Game 2 Game 1 shows an adaptation with Marines, Ghosts, Thors, and Vikings against heavy Protoss air. Game 2 has the Protoss going Archons, Immortals, and Carriers, a unit composition unlike anything I've seen in a TvP mech before. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
Vikings are terrible because they are pure support unit and has no real offense and blow for blow they lose against protoss air. | ||
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
On October 31 2010 19:02 PredY wrote: to the zealot issue mentioned above: i don't really have any problems with them since i build a lot of hellions to dump minerals and i target fire with tanks so the splash damage is minimal to shlowpoke: ye i do orbitals on almost every expo when i mech just to have enough scans to see transition into air units by protoss, and replacing scvs with mules in late game is a good idea i've thought about it too but haven't really put into practise yet, but it should definately work tho it might be risky business i've realized i should open blue flame hellions in basically every games when i scout protoss is not doing a cheesy shit (f.e. 4warpgate), but that can be very tricky because sometimes you can't scout well. the thing is once you go siege expand and don't pressure enough, you can get into situation when you just can't win macro game, and even protoss with much better eco will beat you with ground army. about goody's playstyle: tbh, most of the time i don't really like his opening since he usually doesn't make many marines and his startport is late = freeloss vs voidrays i like is harass style tho i know it's not easy when playing a good protoss that builds pylon walls and have good map control. recently i started trying bio+mech as well, mainly because people that know i like to go mech now gets really fast voidrays and i stomp them with marine+vikings the main sad thing tho is that protoss air can be countered by only marines and vikings, those which can be easily countered by protoss(ie. storm) but i won't stop trying! Early voidrays shouldn't be much of a problem if you open up like an FD (constant marines). I really Think Mech can work if you are able to use both Raven and Ghost (EMP for Immortrals and PDD to stop stalkers). | ||
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Ikkuh
Netherlands170 Posts
http://sc2casts.com/?q=servyoa | ||
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