|
So, I'm a Protoss player that's fascinated with the TvP matchup. It goes without saying that the most common style for T right now is MMM with Viking/Ghost support. Not a lot of variation from that.
There's only one player I've seen that uses a mech-focused TvP build - GoOdy. The general look of his build is some form of aggression (Reaper, Marauder, or Banshee) into an expansion. He then gets lots of Pre-igniter Hellions and Tanks as part of his main army. It's kind of like Brood War TvP, but with less mines and more Vulture drops.
Here's a replay pack featuring him against players such as NightEnd, Adelscott, MaNa, and Hasu:
GoOdy Mech TvP Replay Pack
My questions to all the Terran players are:
Why don't people use this style? GoOdy seems to have decent success with it. Does it have some inherent flaw that makes it inferior to MMM? How does it hold up late-game in comparison to MMM?
|
Ooo nice. I've been wanting to see some games with a mech TvP to cast.
Thanks Shlowpoke - I'll take a look in a few hours when I'm home and we'll see how it rolls!
Edit: Also as a preamble answer to the main question posed: In BW the Mech build had a couple of "ways to counter" whereas now in SC2, Mech actually has a few more extra ways to counter - immortal drops, zealot charge, blink stalkers plus a couple of other things make it (in my eyes) a little bit more intensive to pull off.
That said; I have only seen a couple of "proper" games with Mech, so I would like to see the reps before I go on.
|
Tbh I think for Terran any economic play-style that can involve dropping igniter hellions into people's mains has some kind of a shot, so maybe we'll see more of this.
|
probably because mmm is alot easier to execute then mech. also most bw players I know seems to prefer mech > mmm
|
Mech is great to slow play TvP, however if the protoss is smart he'll just switch to voidrays and rape ur army from the air. That's really the only downside to mech as Thors suck and you'd need alot of vikings. I mean you could land your vikings but they are really shitty and tough to replace.
|
On October 29 2010 16:54 nEAnS wrote:
Mech is great to slow play TvP, however if the protoss is smart he'll just switch to voidrays and rape ur army from the air. That's really the only downside to mech as Thors suck and you'd need alot of vikings. I mean you could land your vikings but they are really shitty and tough to replace.
if not void rays then the constant swithes from ground to air (hi instant warp in from 15 gatways) and mobility issues will kill you
|
Mech doesn't work because mass gate + colo still beats you because hellions are just too awful.
Also if you don't have rax core production, any good P will delay your expansion too much and get a huge macro adv taking a 3rd before you, or just bust you straight up with mass stalker.
|
A decent toss could probably beat mech, with only zealots.
That said, throw in some immortals, blink stalkers, prism dropping on tanks(little anti air, even with thors they will be targeting zealots on the ground)
As a toss play id much rather face mech than bio. Bio terran has great mobility with stim, they can pop in a destroy a expo before you can do much, much more effective cost for cost. Not to mention early game pressure. Vs mech, once you get zealot charge i feel i can do whatever i want.
Im not sure but maybe as toss transitions into HT or colossus adding mech instead of pure bioball might be viable.
|
no ground army of protoss can beat 200/200 mech army of terran with ghosts, the air is only way, unfortunately the air is so strong the vikings sometimes aren't gonna cut it, which is pretty unfortunate
edit: similar upgrades
|
On October 29 2010 18:21 PredY wrote:
no ground army of protoss can beat 200/200 mech army of terran with ghosts, the air is only way, unfortunately the air is so strong the vikings sometimes aren't gonna cut it, which is pretty unfortunate
edit: similar upgrades
Yeah, saw your games with Socke. You either don't make enough vikings and they melt to the voids, or you make so many that he just switches to mass gateway and rolls over it. Virtually nothing you could do to stop him taking over the map either, giving him the gas to do whatever he wants.
|
I think Terrans shy away from this style because it is way too hard to counter Voidrays late game with a pure mech composition. Voidrays just tear though Vikings. As an example, check out two recent games between aTnSocke and PredY (Game One and Game Two). PredY goes pure mech both times. Even in the second game where he knows he needs to counter Voidrays he can't do it.
EDIT: Saw PredY posted previously in this thread.... funny. =)
|
hehe well i think Socke is just on another level than me obviously that's why the games were quite onesided, he did really well and i didnt have any practise partner of socke's level unfortunately. he probably did the best counter to my strategy and i didn't really know what to do, i knew voidrays were good obviously but i didnt expect him to get upgrades and 2-0 vray > 0-0 vikings.
i was really angry at myself after game one because i didnt stick to my plan i made 4th factory instead of starport and my timing push was way off. also my hellion harass attepmts were futile i didnt do enough drops but that was because socke was all over the place with good map control (damn you xelnaga towers). i think if i could play 30 practise games with socke i'd tune in the build im sure. i dont want to write it off because it really works against people that are not socke level ^^
|
When I played Goodys mech style he also built turrets all over the map, doesnt he anymore?
|
On October 29 2010 19:45 Pepe- wrote:
When I played Goodys mech style he also built turrets all over the map, doesnt he anymore?
He does, e.g. couple of days ago (last week? week before?) against Mana in what I think was a CraftCup. From what I've seen he's got a few different variations, like 1 Rax FEing or going 1-1-1, adding Thors or not, doing a very early Bio poke off of 1 or 2 Rax, getting Vikings or not but the general tone seems to be to turtle on 2 base while being as annoying at possible with blueflame drops (sure P can take all the base he wants but expos are quite useless with roasted probes) and then slow pushing at ~150 to 170 supply while taking a third. Must be really annoying 
Edit: wasn't Mana but Nightend
|
On October 29 2010 16:09 Duckvillelol wrote:
Ooo nice. I've been wanting to see some games with a mech TvP to cast.
Thanks Shlowpoke - I'll take a look in a few hours when I'm home and we'll see how it rolls!
Edit: Also as a preamble answer to the main question posed: In BW the Mech build had a couple of "ways to counter" whereas now in SC2, Mech actually has a few more extra ways to counter - immortal drops, zealot charge, blink stalkers plus a couple of other things make it (in my eyes) a little bit more intensive to pull off.
That said; I have only seen a couple of "proper" games with Mech, so I would like to see the reps before I go on.
I love you. I was looking for replays like this x)
|
I played mech for a very long time (2000 diamond) but after the tank nerf it's almost impossible. Why?
- Because a combination of collossae and immortals + speedlots will destroy you.
- Because a toss can take his 3th and even his 4th so fast when you go mech. By the time you can attack he will outmacro you with ease.
|
|
|
The difficulty with heavy meching as well, once the protoss takes his 3rd and 4th bases, is he can throw down 3-4 stargates and pump carriers. Yes, they're slow to make, but what can you counter carriers with? Vikings? Thors? Pfft. As protoss, I like making a death ball of chargelots, HTs and carriers. HTs storm anything that is a threat to the carriers (like marines or vikings), zealots make up a bit of a mineral sink and carriers clean up everything else. Thors are only marginally useful against carriers to begin with. Because of how excellent carriers are I don't even bother with collosi in PvT almost ever, especially if the terran is meching. They also work far better than void rays against missile turret spam which is very common with mech heavy terrans.
|
I think many of the people commentating should really watch the replays. It's not like the players he is winning against are pushovers, quite the contrary. I'm not sure when a Protoss can reasonably take a third and fourth and start pumping carriers while having to defend blueflame drops, but I'd wager it's not before the main mech push comes. The results Goody is having seem to speak for this playstyle.
|
Mech does not work vs competent protosses now that Tanks have been nerfed. P can double expand vs mech, sacrifice one of them and still be yards ahead.
There's a reason why mech is almost non-existant at top level. It is weak.
|
On October 29 2010 21:23 deth wrote:
Mech does not work vs competent protosses now that Tanks have been nerfed. P can double expand vs mech, sacrifice one of them and still be yards ahead.
There's a reason why mech is almost non-existant at top level. It is weak.
Goody is 6th on the latest Blizzard EU Top 200 and so far without loss in ESL EPS which has Socke, Hasuobs, and had Naniwa. What does qualify top level in your opinion then?
|
He needs to sustain his results for longer than a few games for his style to be deemed valid. It's extremely weird and no doubt players aren't sure how to deal with it, but that doesn't make it viable.
|
On October 29 2010 16:08 Shlowpoke wrote:
Why don't people use this style?
Because MMM is MUCH easier to do successfully and a lot of players aren't at the level of comfort to openly swap up the play they're currently doing.
|
Terran players please just go MMM.
I don't want those blueflame hellions in my base.. I wake up at night and hear my probes roasting to death
No but really, I think it's viable and probably more fun too. I'm just a 1400 diamond protoss but yeah I've lost quite a few games against mech.
|
You can still do hellion drops while MMMin' and as a few pprl have said, nerfs to tanks have really hurt the option of mech play against protoss. Feels like they dont do nearly enough dmg for all of that gas and 3 supply
|
I have been trying to go mech vs Protoss in custom games, but there is just no way it's viable with pure mech. I keep losing to gold Protoss (I am 1500-1300 diamond) because they make like 3 Immortals and just walk right up to my tanks.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
|
@ plexa yep i commented on it on the first page,
anyway i don't think my build is bad. it's just if you don't practise against such opponents like socke you get stomped (no offense to my practise partners they are good obv but they have little experience against mech) 
in theory, i have counter against every toss unit (hellion, tank, ghost, viking), problem is that i haven't really found a good timing pushes yet (besides bw-esque when toss's 3rd is finishing and as i said on the first page i fucked up my build in the first game and wasnt able to punish him for it). protoss warping in units everywhere is a huge pain but it doesnt really stop you from killing all his probes. the problem i have is you can't really kill his nexuses
if you ask me i'd open blue flame hellions every time if i knew i wouldn't die to any 4warpgate rushes
edit: sry a bit offtopic from me
|
we terrans all had to change our style because of the tank nerf/nerv.
however this topic tries to show a way out of the valley of sorrow.
so why (FFS) do you comment on the underpowered mech units here?
this only relates to his (goodies) play in the sense, that he coped with it.
|
phoenix is good against this too. mainly because it can shut down the blue flame helion drops
it doesn't matter that his vikings can deal with your phoenixes in the actual fights as long as they can pick up the tanks long enough to get your chargelots/immortals to them.
|
but i dont understand why people will insist on going pure mech against heavy VRs. how about getting marines and a bit of upgrades and turrets...certainly cheaper gas wise than VRs. in essence you're still going mech, just marines for a mineral dump.
|
On October 29 2010 22:57 shadymmj wrote:
but i dont understand why people will insist on going pure mech against heavy VRs. how about getting marines and a bit of upgrades and turrets...certainly cheaper gas wise than VRs. in essence you're still going mech, just marines for a mineral dump.
it's quite difficult to switch to barax units when you have factories and starports, plus at that stage of the game protoss usually has both collosus and HT techs up.
i say give us back Lockdown :D
|
On October 29 2010 20:51 Plexa wrote:Mech play is like goon/reaver was to normal PvZ in SC1  it's strong when executed right but there are many pitfalls along the way - and if your main attack fails then the game is pretty much over. Protoss rebuilds way faster and will have a better economy so even if you kill each others armies you will still end up behind. As a protoss, the easiest counter to mech is to build one robo for every factory and make immortal/colossus as you can (usually I go immortal from first robo, colo from second, immo from third etc). Robotics units completely roflstomp terran mech harder than anything. Just complement that with stalkers and you'll be fine
Pretty much this, except I'd say to get void rays after scouting more than 1 factory, especially if they have tech labs.
I actually think I have a replay of me just oblitering a Mech T build, I'll edit if I find it.
But I will say that if any P players every come across a mech(factory) build to just simply grab VR's asap.
Edit: Did find the replay but it doesn't show anything except Void rays melting tanks/thors/hellions with added in marines/vikings.
Aside from an extremely aggressive push on a map like steppes I would say this isn't really that viable, and that marauders for support would be infinitely better.
|
the reason people dont do this is because it requires alot of skill and attention (positioning is everything).
mmm on the other hand is relatively simple and easy to execute (until storm kicks in ofc)
|
I really hope that the immortal will get a nerf. You can't go thors or tanks because the immortal counter them so hard. It's just ridicilous...
|
Immortals absolutely shut down mech play. Phoenixes are also good against tanks. Terran mech has relatively week anti-air unlike in bw where they had goliaths. Investing in vikings would be wasteful because they have limited usage as they don't shoot ground.
|
i pretty much think ghosts are must against protoss to shut down immortals, hts and possible phoenixes
i think people think too much about a p unit > a t unit which is wrong, terran have counter to everything P has, the real problem is it's hard to take out expoes like tank drops in sc1, and that the timings are not clear yet
|
On October 29 2010 20:51 Plexa wrote:As a protoss, the easiest counter to mech is to build one robo for every factory and make immortal/colossus as you can (usually I go immortal from first robo, colo from second, immo from third etc). Robotics units completely roflstomp terran mech harder than anything. Just complement that with stalkers and you'll be fine
Not this....
neanS, PredY have it right.
There's no way to effectively counter the combo of Voidrays, chargelot/blink stalker, and mass expo with mech
If you go robo units on a mecher... we will thank you for the win.
Mechers will have ghosts. We could care less about immortals. It's VR <> Blink stalker/chargelot switches that really mess us up. One attacks our lack of a proper counter. The other really punishes our mobility issue. Combined by the fact that they take extra bases, the earlier we do our push, the less the chance of the success, but the less allin it is. The later we do our push, the greater the chance of success but there will be no followup and more of a chance of a backstab.
|
I always meched vs protoss all the way up until the last tank nerf now i can only seem to fit in a dash of tanks stubbornly becasue they are and always have been since when i first played sc1 my favorite unit. I'd always lose to sudden tech switches to void rays and then mass warp-ins after.
problem with mech against protoss in sc2 is tanks cost more gas and supply and they dont have cover from spider mines. even if their were spider mines chargelots would be a huge pain in the butt more so than speedlots from BW.
also mech in BW did'nt really need mobility becasue vultures with spider mines helped them still have a presence all over the map forcing dragoons to only be mobile with observers.
in sc2 going full mech you can't really have any sort of presence anywhere and protoss is free to do whatever they want.
|
Is there a rule that says "Terran are only allowed to build out of one type of production building"? I must have missed that one.
Just massing tanks means a lot of dead tanks... because tanks suck at "tanking". I have found it very effective to have a maurader/marine core (ratio based on void ray to stalker ratio) with a handful of tanks in support to deal large splash damage to zealots and stalkers. Add in a few hellions and some medivacs and you have great harrass with different kinds of drops (hellion, bio, bio+tank) that each require a different response. Throw in a ghost or two for EMP (no cloak needed) and a few vikings for colossus hunting.
I do have to say, the "lots of turrets about the map" a lot. I will have to try it... it messes with observers, which as we saw in the recent Loner vs Genius games give toss a huge advantage if not countered. Beyond that, it's always nice to have a turret to drop back to, for help with a colossus... turrets do crazy dmg on those.
|
The problem isn't that mech is crap vs protoss (it is), but that if you do anything at all to prepare for a long-ish game, you're way the fuck behind. There is only one way to play tvp with an advantage, and that is early mm pressure with perfect micro. SeleCT style. A good protoss mixing air with ground is simply unbeatable with mech. Vikings aren't good enough, don't come quickly enough, and should the rare circumstance arise that you manage to achieve air superiority, they quickly go mass ground and you're stuck with junk-ass vikings. Late game terran gets exposed by protoss and zerg macro mechanics. Going mech vs protoss should really point this out nicely to anyone who's not convinced.
|
it's actually really hard to go bio+mech because you need all the production facilities and it's not really good to have "little of everything", you need upgrades, etc..
|
I dislike the title. It is not Goody's build and Goody didn't popularized it -.-.
But into subject, I've been also wondering why people don't play pure mech more. Tanks are really strong at big numbers and super difficult to stop.
|
On October 29 2010 21:23 deth wrote:
Mech does not work vs competent protosses now that Tanks have been nerfed. P can double expand vs mech, sacrifice one of them and still be yards ahead.
There's a reason why mech is almost non-existant at top level. It is weak.
yah, good protosses rape mech, it really was something that was viable, but through all the massive nerfs, especially on tanks...if you go mech, you'll be out macro'd by any decent protoss.
@poster above, I think I helped popularize the ghostmech idea tvp (with the hellion drops ), but even I have had to abandon that because...it doesn't work Protoss can manhandle you if you attempt a high tank count, and I think plexa said it has pitfalls but the main thing is...even mass zealots will rape your mech most of the time without trouble because of tanks doing less damage to them, immortals in there too, and collosus/phoenix. And then you're stuck on barely two base, and they have 4 base into mass voids or worse...carriers.
And if ur army dies once - you lose the game. You can't re-macro a tank army as fast as even the most noobie of protosses can warp in another 12 zealots.
It'd be nice if tanks didn't suck again. And were not so expensive.
|
i can't agree with avilo ground P army has never been the problem for ghost mech build. it's voidrays and carriers
|
To the people saying that a midgame void ray switch kills mech... I acknowledge that that would roll a meching player over if they're not prepared.
However, isn't that the same as Brood War? If the mech player isn't prepared for a Carrier switch he gets rolled too. There are no Goliaths anymore, but couldn't you protect your mech army with the new super-turrets and a few Vikings?
GoOdy seems to build turrets as he pushes. In appropriate numbers, this should help deal with both Colossi and air. If you watch the match vs NightEnd on Steppes of War, GoOdy places his tanks just behind his turrets as he pushes across the map. If the Colossi attack the tanks, they take damage from the turrets. If they attack the turrets, they got shot by the tanks. Win-win and it also helps deal with air.
So, are turrets not good enough?
|
immortals hard counter mech early game, its gross. T needs the stank numbers for mech to be menacing
|
On October 29 2010 17:06 zomgad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:54 nEAnS wrote:
Mech is great to slow play TvP, however if the protoss is smart he'll just switch to voidrays and rape ur army from the air. That's really the only downside to mech as Thors suck and you'd need alot of vikings. I mean you could land your vikings but they are really shitty and tough to replace. if not void rays then the constant swithes from ground to air (hi instant warp in from 15 gatways) and mobility issues will kill you
You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas.
|
On October 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:06 zomgad wrote:On October 29 2010 16:54 nEAnS wrote:
Mech is great to slow play TvP, however if the protoss is smart he'll just switch to voidrays and rape ur army from the air. That's really the only downside to mech as Thors suck and you'd need alot of vikings. I mean you could land your vikings but they are really shitty and tough to replace. if not void rays then the constant swithes from ground to air (hi instant warp in from 15 gatways) and mobility issues will kill you You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas.
Now hold on a moment, the only reason you'd lack gas is if you went DT/Sentry/HT heavy with air, which you probably won't anyways since
-HTs will end up damaging your interceptors significantly over time
-DTs are only okay as long as they don't have turrets/a raven or spare scans (unlikely)
-Sentries aren't really going to help vs Mech.
Most of the time I go air against terran, I'll be throwing down sick numbers of zealots for flanking and as the real DPS. (treat carriers as meatshield generators for anything that can shoot air; only you're going to need to spend minerals, and they can fight back)
The requisite number of stalkers to take out vikings (when they come out) might be an issue though when you go Zealot heavy.
|
I am trying to learn this style (from goody's replays :d ) for a while now. It just feels so..unsafe.. one lost battle and you lose the game. I'am sad that all Protoss air seems made to kill mech
|
On October 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:06 zomgad wrote:On October 29 2010 16:54 nEAnS wrote:
Mech is great to slow play TvP, however if the protoss is smart he'll just switch to voidrays and rape ur army from the air. That's really the only downside to mech as Thors suck and you'd need alot of vikings. I mean you could land your vikings but they are really shitty and tough to replace. if not void rays then the constant swithes from ground to air (hi instant warp in from 15 gatways) and mobility issues will kill you You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas.
You aren't forced to choose one. You can open templar tech -- which is perfectly viable -- and then add some VR's once your macro kicks in (which it will because there's not much to stop it).
|
On October 30 2010 03:09 Shlowpoke wrote:
To the people saying that a midgame void ray switch kills mech... I acknowledge that that would roll a meching player over if they're not prepared.
However, isn't that the same as Brood War? If the mech player isn't prepared for a Carrier switch he gets rolled too. There are no Goliaths anymore, but couldn't you protect your mech army with the new super-turrets and a few Vikings?
GoOdy seems to build turrets as he pushes. In appropriate numbers, this should help deal with both Colossi and air. If you watch the match vs NightEnd on Steppes of War, GoOdy places his tanks just behind his turrets as he pushes across the map. If the Colossi attack the tanks, they take damage from the turrets. If they attack the turrets, they got shot by the tanks. Win-win and it also helps deal with air.
So, are turrets not good enough?
One word: MOBILITY.
Turrets are strong vs air and colossi, its true. But the whole point of mech not as viable as MMM is due to cost. Re-macroing MMM takes a lot less gas and minerals than mech, and also requires lesser build times.
Besides, MMM is not a final "ultimate" composition for T, as most competent Ts will expand/switch to more high tier units to support the MMM in later parts of the game. I myself like to expand to ghosts, vikings, banshees, 1 or 2 ravens (air force) against P, though I haven't played many games with this build yet.
|
I have seen replays of blink stalkers and immortals breaking mech lines. If i were to guess another possible tech path against mech i would either go psi storms to storm clumped tanks or try and get 3 bases and go carriers because they are very good against mech when you have alot of them.
|
On October 30 2010 04:43 Setev wrote:One word: MOBILITY.
Colossi make the Protoss army much more immobile, yet they're the standard play vs the extremely mobile MMM. I'm not sure just 'mobility' is a good enough argument.
If you've watched Day9, some ways you deal with using an immobile army are careful positioning and controlling key points of terrain. Like expanding towards your opponent or sprinting to a certain area to cover the attack path to your new expansion.
On October 30 2010 04:43 Setev wrote:Turrets are strong vs air and colossi, its true. But the whole point of mech not as viable as MMM is due to cost. Re-macroing MMM takes a lot less gas and minerals than mech, and also requires lesser build times.
This could be an issue, I admit. However, if your strategy is to make a slow unstoppable ball, isn't it kind of obvious that if you lose the whole thing you've lost the game? If I'm playing 1 base Colossus and I lose my whole ball, I'm probably dead vs MMM since I won't reach critical mass again before they kill me. I'm not sure if it's fair to say this, but I want to say "If you're playing mech, be careful and don't lose all your damn tanks."
It may be more difficult and unforgiving than MMM, but the reward for doing mech right is not getting destroyed by Colossi and Storm in the late game, isn't it?
|
Ghosts can be good once you get your third. EMP will help so immortals don't come in, and they are good vs voidrays.
|
1850 Terran here, and I have seen some people mention that the reason to go mech is to not get destroyed by colossus/templar. I have had immense trouble with the toss late game (post 15 mins or so) and I have never won a battle unless my army is significantly larger once the game is in its later stages. I have tried a route where I maxed with BCs Thors and marauders, but that lost pretty bad also (temps didnt have storm yet but they feedbacked all my bcs).
I will watch these replays, maybe there is an answer in there somewhere. I did think about mass tanks, but I kind of wrote that off since z's completely destroy them now. I guess with the blue flame backing them they may have a chance. I do look forward to these replays, thanks for the post.
Also, as has also been mentioned already, is you need a way to replenish your army, particularly since the protoss army is flat out better than yours pop for pop. Mech seems very slow building and once you lose that battle you are probably done as he warps in 2 rounds of units and attacks.
I bet these replays have drops to counter this. Again, thanks for the post, I'll post here again after I watch some of these.
|
On October 30 2010 01:29 HalfAmazing wrote:
The problem isn't that mech is crap vs protoss (it is), but that if you do anything at all to prepare for a long-ish game, you're way the fuck behind. There is only one way to play tvp with an advantage, and that is early mm pressure with perfect micro. SeleCT style. A good protoss mixing air with ground is simply unbeatable with mech. Vikings aren't good enough, don't come quickly enough, and should the rare circumstance arise that you manage to achieve air superiority, they quickly go mass ground and you're stuck with junk-ass vikings. Late game terran gets exposed by protoss and zerg macro mechanics. Going mech vs protoss should really point this out nicely to anyone who's not convinced.
I have to agree here. I feel the only viable opener at this time vs the Toss is the 2 rax mm pressure into either 3rd rax for heavy pressure or expand. If I beat the toss it is pre 15 minutes. Once they get up an expand and get the warpgates and colossus/templar going you can not stand in their way. At that point constant drops is your only answer.
|
Umm actually, I feel that getting fast upgrades (double armory style) can work especially with a slow push with a near third.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161157
Examples in that thread. Once you hit a critical mass of tanks, immortals do not do so well and upgrades help. Getting fast upgrades means your vehicle weapons upgrades will be done quite fast so you can switch over to air upgrades to fend off the voidrays. Another thing you could do is a FE into 1/1/1 and make some hellions and drop ehllions, then stop making hellions for a bit and make tanks instead with vikings. Vikings have quite a high DPS versus ground so theyre not so bad versus immortal. Upgraded hellions actually do a lot of damage in their line splash, especially to zealots and HTs.
|
The real question is why would you go mech when realistically marauders do more effective damage, with far greater mobility and better survivability for less cost.
Mech just doesn't really have any advantages over marine/marauder/medivac/viking to make them worth using. You totally sacrifice all mobility for what? To instead of being worried about just colossus/HT to being worried about HT/immortals/colossus/Zealots/BlinkStalkers/voidrays/phoenix/carriers.
The other huge thing is that medivacs give 2 roles to a MMM force, mobility and healing. If you want to do drops in your mech play you have to sacrifice 100/100 for what is just a dropship, it has no other purpose in your army and is just wasted resources after your drop.
Mech needs anti-air support, Thors are not Goliaths. That means getting marines, that means getting medivacs, getting medivacs just for a few marines is not efficient use of resources.
The alternative anti-air is the Viking, which is intended to be a flying Goliath in terms of design, but it doesn't work that well in this role as it isn't really that effect against protoss air. This also has the problem of taking gas away from mech unit production, and also doesn't benefit from vehicle upgrades and vikings pretty much suck as ground units.
Generally mech in PvT has a couple of design issues. I don't mean that it is imbalanced as such, but more so that it is a bit broken, it just doesn't work as it should.
|
i used to play hellion drop (blue flame) into expand into 6 fax (2 tech/4reactor) and ghosts in every TvP.
the probem is that the first drop needs to make huge damage or you are behind, the second problem is that you need to constant harass the P economy, while macroing a huge army up. Next problems are taking out expansions and techswitches (mass gatewayunits - > voidrays/phoenix -> massgateway units).
right now im clueless about TvP, I try to play a macro style but its really hard to stay in the game @ the point where colossi with range and HTs with 75 enter the battlefield. TvP is like TvZ in sc1, if Z gets 4 gas you are dead and if P gets some colossi and HTs with ups you are dead.
I think Terran will evolve into something like "build every single unit available". I really miss spidermines, they were so useful =/
|
I watch the Void Ray game with Socke. I think that only goes to show that Vikings are terrible against anything that can shoot back at them that aren't corruptors. :-\
The main issue with Terran Mech play in SCII is that T has no good AA unit beyond the marine vs protoss. I think the only way you are going to get away with this is biomech with marines.
|
The most annoying thing in the world in tvp for me is how thors react to a mixed ground/air army. If they have a billion stalkers and one carrier, your thors will all spend 20 minutes trying to take out a carrier while their stalkers rape you. I mean, they do zero damage to armored air. :| Thor honestly needs a toggle -- attack ground/attack air. The way it works now is just not right. A single carrier, even if it doesn't have any interceptors doing damage, will completely nullify your thor army. That is ridiculous. It's like an infinite energy PDD. :D
|
I don't really think that toss air is the problem. Even though terran mech has difficulties against it, the protoss has to survive the transition into some air units first.
I think the main reason is that it is simply harder to play. It is more like in bw. One wrong move and you can be caught out of position and your whole army dies.
MMM is just a lot more forgiving. You can engage in wrong spots with inferior numbers and get out of the battle with concussive shells and stim without really losing too much stuff if you don't get trapped by forcefields.
|
On October 30 2010 02:33 PredY wrote:
i can't agree with avilo ground P army has never been the problem for ghost mech build. it's voidrays and carriers
...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third.
But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army...
and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them.
|
Anyone else watch the replays and notice that, in a lot of the games he wins, Goody does a lot of harass with hellions or tank drops, and has a large food lead in the big confrontation?
It seems counter-intuitive to me that mech's slow, hard-hitting units should lend itself to this style. Certainly in mech TvZ a strong mech Terran will crush a zerg with even foodcount.
|
On October 30 2010 13:23 ComTrav wrote:
Anyone else watch the replays and notice that, in a lot of the games he wins, Goody does a lot of harass with hellions or tank drops, and has a large food lead in the big confrontation?
It seems counter-intuitive to me that mech's slow, hard-hitting units should lend itself to this style. Certainly in mech TvZ a strong mech Terran will crush a zerg with even foodcount.
I'm just going through all the games now because I'm wanting to cast a couple and one thing I've noticed is that in almost all of the games, Goody does a very early 1/2 marauder push with scv/marine assistance, and seemingly always gets about a 6-7 worker lead.
I'm not saying that's why he's winning these games in the replay pack, but it's a significant boost to the mid-game attacks he pushes onto the opponent - as their are 'not in' the mid-game because of the need to catchup workers, or they just haven't macrod up sufficiently to that point.
|
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 02:33 PredY wrote:
i can't agree with avilo ground P army has never been the problem for ghost mech build. it's voidrays and carriers ...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third. But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them.
Pretty much all true. Before the 50 to 35+15 vs armored tank damage nerf PredY would have been right but zlots are beastly against mech again.
If they are gunna keep the damage the way it is they are going to need to make the tank cheaper.
2 supply and 100 gas maybe.
The way blizzard is going about balancing Terran is making it so MMM are the only useful units.
Now overall I'm not saying anything is imba or anything but it's just dumb that becasue the marauders are too strong they weakend everything around it and strengthened other races counters and such so now it takes 4 nukes to kill a nexus because the marauder was too strong.... and tanks are only useful for killing marines and banelings in TvT and TvZ. i would gladly take some marauder nerfs so long as they buffed the mech units enough to compensate in cost effectiveness and overall game balance.
|
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 02:33 PredY wrote:
i can't agree with avilo ground P army has never been the problem for ghost mech build. it's voidrays and carriers ...lol. I think I know a thing or two about it... Void rays/carriers could be trouble some later in the game, but even a ground army now rapes it. They just mass zealots/immortals and get up the usual collosus numbers with phoenix and deny your third. But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army... and the smart ones will just mass carrier since you can't push them.
Based on your profile you seem experienced enough (1900+ and ~55%). But at 1900+ and ~70%, PredY is facing tougher people on the ladder. At least two 2300-2400 Protoss has trouble breaking PredY's mech with ground. aTnSocke tries in this game and Welmu mentions that he lost to PredY's mech with ground several times in this thread. However, aTnSocke succeeded with a Void Ray and ground mix. Based on these two highly ranked Protoss, the evidence is pretty clear that Void Rays + ground and not pure ground will break well played mech. I'd be interested in any replays you have to offer against similarly skilled opponents that support your point.
Corwin
|
On October 30 2010 11:22 avilo wrote:But yes, those are late game problems, but it's too bad you won't make it there because P will be on 4-5 base while you're barely securing your third. Then they just suicide into you and re-macro, while you cannot re-macro a tank army...
I feel like there's got to be some way to use Terran macro mechanics as they are to get around that "can't re-macro as fast as other races" problem.
For example: Aggressively expand with Orbital Commands even if you might not have the SCVs to fully saturate the base. The main purpose of this is to get gas as fast as you can for your tank-heavy army, but also so that you end up with 4-5 Orbital commands by the time you max out. Then you start replacing your SCVs with MULEs so your maxed Terran ball has more units than their maxed army + 80 workers. Since Terran units work best in a ball, the effectiveness of your army *should* be greater than theirs, and you won't have to re-macro the whole thing at once. It will be up to the other player to chip away at you.
Is this reasonable?
|
I'll watch these replays, and report my findings and try to relate them to the mech style.
Game 1: vs Hasu on DQ.
Goody tries some cheesy shit, which is not helped by the longer positions. It initially works ok for him but he tries a bit too hard and it falls apart. Then his expansion is late, his transition poor, his scouting info lacklustre and his little push easily thwarted. I'm unsure if hasu got 2 gate voids because he knew what goody would do or because that's soemthing he likes to do.
Game 2: vs Steve on Scrap
This one goes for a bit longer, but it definitely highlights a few things:
1) If your army dies, you're going to have a very hard time maintaining aggression. This can be seen by the fact that goody attacks ONCE in a 36 minute game (excluding all the hellion motherfuckery)
2) Void rays and immortals are dicks. Gateway units are easily handled by mech, but the voids and immortals demand you get lots of vikings and ghosts. The immortals simply take too much of a pounding. It might be possible to deal with voids by upgrading Thor weapons, as they do +4 for each upgrade, but I am doubtful.
3) blue flame hellions are really good at roasting probes, but this can be stopped by BUILDING SOME FUCKING PHOTON CANNONS! ARGH! Wanted to choke the protoss to death for losing 60 probes at one expansion, easily prevented by building 2 or 3 cannons.
4) The protoss knocks the Rocks down 34 minutes in. He could have knocked them down and threatened two locations about 8 minutes into the game, but doesn't. Shitty protoss play!
Game 3 vs Flig. The conc shell early push has killed like a billionprobes. this game doesn't go for very long. Not very convinced about much here, except a bit of naff luck by the P player.
Will keep watching, and write a longer post/test this playstyle out myself once I am properly convinced.
EDIT- and a good few of these games are prepatch 1.1.2, which (I would imagine) affect Protoss's willingness to build void rays. I think the above replays may have been last patch. Shit.
|
to the zealot issue mentioned above: i don't really have any problems with them since i build a lot of hellions to dump minerals and i target fire with tanks so the splash damage is minimal
to shlowpoke: ye i do orbitals on almost every expo when i mech just to have enough scans to see transition into air units by protoss, and replacing scvs with mules in late game is a good idea i've thought about it too but haven't really put into practise yet, but it should definately work tho it might be risky business
i've realized i should open blue flame hellions in basically every games when i scout protoss is not doing a cheesy shit (f.e. 4warpgate), but that can be very tricky because sometimes you can't scout well. the thing is once you go siege expand and don't pressure enough, you can get into situation when you just can't win macro game, and even protoss with much better eco will beat you with ground army.
about goody's playstyle: tbh, most of the time i don't really like his opening since he usually doesn't make many marines and his startport is late = freeloss vs voidrays
i like is harass style tho i know it's not easy when playing a good protoss that builds pylon walls and have good map control.
recently i started trying bio+mech as well, mainly because people that know i like to go mech now gets really fast voidrays and i stomp them with marine+vikings the main sad thing tho is that protoss air can be countered by only marines and vikings, those which can be easily countered by protoss(ie. storm) but i won't stop trying!
|
Watched his vs Adelscott on LT game, where he loses. Many flaws are exposed here.
First is his opening. It's very safe, don't get me wrong. It's covered against almost any early game protoss motherfuckery, like 4gate, dt's, void ray busts, 1 gate colossus. The wall-off handles it neatly, and the tanks and vikings complement the wall. Not a lot, if anything, will ever get through that.
What's bad is that it doesn't translate into a very strong pressure when the protoss plays 2 gate robo, like what happened in this game. Perhaps He merely controlled it wrong, but a similar situation occured in the Shakuras Plateau game vs Nightend. Both times he has a useless medivac and viking sitting around, whilst the tanks and marines get ripped up. But he NEEDS that starport and the stuff coming out of it to be safe with his wall-off. Whilst some pressure is done, and he does get to expand off of it, he also loses a bunch of tanks, which is bad. He cannot be aggressive without tanks. Period.
It also results in a later expansion, and this is a MU where Terran are supposed to be ahead in expansions! This is one strength of Rax openings, like 2 rax ghost FE, or the 1 rax conc shell pressure into FE. A 1/1/1 opening cannot do this.
The mid and lategames do not really produce a significantly better force through virtue of it beign tanks. A big part of this was poor ghost control, but still, Adelscott has like 4k resources banked up from his 6 bases. If he was macroing properly, good ghost emp's still wouldn't matter as Goody would be suffocated by the mass of Protoss units.
And immortals are still, wtfinsane strong against Mech.
I don't think I will be testing this playstyle out myself. Although, I am somewhat tempted to experiment with either a TvT-esque 1 rax reactor, 1 fac siege expand, or a ghost expansion into mech transition (with very little, if any, starport assistance), particularly on a map like DQ or JB where protoss get 2 extremely safe bases and hide behind sentries. Getting some tanks in there seems like a very good way to smash their turtely ways (or just contain them until they cry uncle)
|
On October 31 2010 19:17 iaguz wrote:
Watched his vs Adelscott on LT game, where he loses. Many flaws are exposed here.
First is his opening. It's very safe, don't get me wrong. It's covered against almost any early game protoss motherfuckery, like 4gate, dt's, void ray busts, 1 gate colossus. The wall-off handles it neatly, and the tanks and vikings complement the wall. Not a lot, if anything, will ever get through that.
What's bad is that it doesn't translate into a very strong pressure when the protoss plays 2 gate robo, like what happened in this game. Perhaps He merely controlled it wrong, but a similar situation occured in the Shakuras Plateau game vs Nightend. Both times he has a useless medivac and viking sitting around, whilst the tanks and marines get ripped up. But he NEEDS that starport and the stuff coming out of it to be safe with his wall-off. Whilst some pressure is done, and he does get to expand off of it, he also loses a bunch of tanks, which is bad. He cannot be aggressive without tanks. Period.
It also results in a later expansion, and this is a MU where Terran are supposed to be ahead in expansions! This is one strength of Rax openings, like 2 rax ghost FE, or the 1 rax conc shell pressure into FE. A 1/1/1 opening cannot do this.
The mid and lategames do not really produce a significantly better force through virtue of it beign tanks. A big part of this was poor ghost control, but still, Adelscott has like 4k resources banked up from his 6 bases. If he was macroing properly, good ghost emp's still wouldn't matter as Goody would be suffocated by the mass of Protoss units.
And immortals are still, wtfinsane strong against Mech.
I don't think I will be testing this playstyle out myself. Although, I am somewhat tempted to experiment with either a TvT-esque 1 rax reactor, 1 fac siege expand, or a ghost expansion into mech transition (with very little, if any, starport assistance), particularly on a map like DQ or JB where protoss get 2 extremely safe bases and hide behind sentries. Getting some tanks in there seems like a very good way to smash their turtely ways (or just contain them until they cry uncle)
I would just like the point out that this is not going to ever happen since the Medivac speed nerf and the Nexus buff, which allows P players to 1 Gate FE without fear anymore of a Maurader doom drop blowing up any Nexus they may have. Most P players are beginning to switch to 1 Gate FE because it is basically unkillable except by a total all in blind counter, and it transitions the P into late game very quickly, allowing them to get Colossai/Templars and walk all over the T.
Basically any 1 Gate FE play will walk all over this since the P will be so far ahead economically that he can just walk all over the T with massive armies over and over again. Just not very sound vs a P macro player.
|
On October 29 2010 18:21 PredY wrote:
no ground army of protoss can beat 200/200 mech army of terran with ghosts, the air is only way, unfortunately the air is so strong the vikings sometimes aren't gonna cut it, which is pretty unfortunate
edit: similar upgrades
Have you played against any P using zealot/archon? My Ghost micro could have been better, but it felt like tanks just didn't have the punch I needed to tear through waves of archons.
|
On November 01 2010 05:32 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:21 PredY wrote:
no ground army of protoss can beat 200/200 mech army of terran with ghosts, the air is only way, unfortunately the air is so strong the vikings sometimes aren't gonna cut it, which is pretty unfortunate
edit: similar upgrades Have you played against any P using zealot/archon? My Ghost micro could have been better, but it felt like tanks just didn't have the punch I needed to tear through waves of archons.
i must say i haven't but if you have enough hellions to kill the zealots it should be fine i think? gotta target fire the archons with tanks so you don't kill your own units just like in sc1
that's just theory here and if he sneaks zealot behind your army it's damaging, but if you see it coming i think it should be fine
|
Two new games with updates to this playstyle that should generate a lot of interesting discussion.
aTnSocke (P) vs. ServyOa (T) Game 1
aTnSocke (P) vs. ServyOa (T) Game 2
Game 1 shows an adaptation with Marines, Ghosts, Thors, and Vikings against heavy Protoss air. Game 2 has the Protoss going Archons, Immortals, and Carriers, a unit composition unlike anything I've seen in a TvP mech before.
|
yeah i really liked that servant added some bio into it but still got great power with tanks. got me some new ideas i will test out in the future. gotta focus on other matchups now tho
|
I cant really think of a way to tweak mech into working well when protoss reinforce with air units :/
Vikings are terrible because they are pure support unit and has no real offense and blow for blow they lose against protoss air.
|
On October 31 2010 19:02 PredY wrote:to the zealot issue mentioned above: i don't really have any problems with them since i build a lot of hellions to dump minerals and i target fire with tanks so the splash damage is minimal to shlowpoke: ye i do orbitals on almost every expo when i mech just to have enough scans to see transition into air units by protoss, and replacing scvs with mules in late game is a good idea i've thought about it too but haven't really put into practise yet, but it should definately work tho it might be risky business i've realized i should open blue flame hellions in basically every games when i scout protoss is not doing a cheesy shit (f.e. 4warpgate), but that can be very tricky because sometimes you can't scout well. the thing is once you go siege expand and don't pressure enough, you can get into situation when you just can't win macro game, and even protoss with much better eco will beat you with ground army. about goody's playstyle: tbh, most of the time i don't really like his opening since he usually doesn't make many marines and his startport is late = freeloss vs voidrays i like is harass style tho i know it's not easy when playing a good protoss that builds pylon walls and have good map control. recently i started trying bio+mech as well, mainly because people that know i like to go mech now gets really fast voidrays and i stomp them with marine+vikings the main sad thing tho is that protoss air can be countered by only marines and vikings, those which can be easily countered by protoss(ie. storm) but i won't stop trying!
Early voidrays shouldn't be much of a problem if you open up like an FD (constant marines). I really Think Mech can work if you are able to use both Raven and Ghost (EMP for Immortrals and PDD to stop stalkers).
|
|
|
I've been doing mech for ages since the beginning of starcraft 2 against Protoss, i'm a 1900 diamond random player too ha and many protoss don't know how to deal with it. I've devised and refined my build order so that it works against early Immortal drops, 4 warpgate pushes, Fast Void Ray rushes etc. and it is viable once you get ghosts out.
|
On October 30 2010 02:08 Welmu wrote:
I dislike the title. It is not Goody's build and Goody didn't popularized it -.-.
But into subject, I've been also wondering why people don't play pure mech more. Tanks are really strong at big numbers and super difficult to stop.
I agree with him, Goody gets so much credit for this but I see him fail a lot in most of his games. He didn't "create" the mech vs protoss build. I've been using this style from the start of sc2, even in beta, way before I even knew who Goody was.
|
IMO the problem with mech is the variety of things you may have to add to your composition based on what the protoss has
VS chargelot/HT you need, blue flame hellions
VS collosus immortal you need ghosts/vikings
VS voids you need marines/vikings
VS blink stalkers/collosus you need marines/vikings
You obviously can get these things but you need alot of production buildings and excellent scouting
|
I believe pain-user was trying mech for a while vs protoss. He would go early bio pressure with many tanks and then slowly tech up upgrade and preigniter while his tank count get high but the problem with this build is that you will eventually end up having alot of minerals. Which he solve by containing his opponent early with un-upgraded marines and tank with bunker contain. I saw it for a while when he was live streaming but suddenly he stopped when he went to MLG dallas. I was hoping to see more of it but it saddens me he stop. So im guessing if pain-user stop going that build then their probably too many flaws in it. I also saw a game where he got rofl stomped when a guy went immortal drop into phoenix play.
|
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively.
|
On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively.
Did you read the thread? I made a post about those games earlier. What you fail to mention is that in that BO3 series, ServyOa won the first game against Socke with mech on Metalopolis. ServyOa lost the second game to a 4 gate on Jungle Basin and then the third game was an extremely close game on Shakuras. The fact that ServyOa lost a very close game doesn't mean anything, especially since he won the first game with the same playstyle.
|
On November 15 2010 11:11 Corwin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively. Did you read the thread? I made a post about those games earlier. What you fail to mention is that in that BO3 series, ServyOa won the first game against Socke with mech on Metalopolis. ServyOa lost the second game to a 4 gate on Jungle Basin and then the third game was an extremely close game on Shakuras. The fact that ServyOa lost a very close game doesn't mean anything, especially since he won the first game with the same playstyle.
Dude he outplayed socke that game. He had more expos up faster, he did tons of damage with his hellions.
The problem is that once Protoss gets templar-carrier there's very little that Terran, and especially mech can do against it.
|
On November 15 2010 11:16 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:11 Corwin wrote:On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively. Did you read the thread? I made a post about those games earlier. What you fail to mention is that in that BO3 series, ServyOa won the first game against Socke with mech on Metalopolis. ServyOa lost the second game to a 4 gate on Jungle Basin and then the third game was an extremely close game on Shakuras. The fact that ServyOa lost a very close game doesn't mean anything, especially since he won the first game with the same playstyle. Dude he outplayed socke that game. He had more expos up faster, he did tons of damage with his hellions. The problem is that once Protoss gets templar-carrier there's very little that Terran, and especially mech can do against it.
In BW a maxed Protoss army beats a maxed Zerg army every time, correct? When a Protoss essentially has unlimited gas and can max out on Carriers AND Templars, I'm not sure that proves that a build in not viable. As shown by the first game, it may very well be that you can only pull off what Socke did on a map as large as Shakuras.
|
On November 15 2010 05:30 SheaR619 wrote:
I believe pain-user was trying mech for a while vs protoss. He would go early bio pressure with many tanks and then slowly tech up upgrade and preigniter while his tank count get high but the problem with this build is that you will eventually end up having alot of minerals. Which he solve by containing his opponent early with un-upgraded marines and tank with bunker contain. I saw it for a while when he was live streaming but suddenly he stopped when he went to MLG dallas. I was hoping to see more of it but it saddens me he stop. So im guessing if pain-user stop going that build then their probably too many flaws in it. I also saw a game where he got rofl stomped when a guy went immortal drop into phoenix play.
Same thing happened in BW. Mech is so gas heavy your gonna have excess minerals. This was usually solved with Mass Turrets or mass vultures.
In SC2 we can still mass turrets and mass Hellions. The Hellions can be suicided into mineral lines
Or if your really want to mess protoss up slap down 10 raxes and insta switch to Mass MM like 20 min into the game
|
On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively.
It's hilarious when someone says there is "nothing x could have done". There is ALWAYS something you can do better no matter what you are trying to do.
|
On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively.
It's been a little while since I watched that game but as I recall Servoa was playing brilliantly and was ahead or even with Socke until he sprinted across the map haphazardly and Socke caught him in the middle of a siege. That's a pretty huge blunder and it was still a close game after that.
|
I spent some time going bio-mech (well, about a week and a bit, haha). It was a 2 rax ghost fe opening (very safe, can turn into a 3/4 rax ghost push vs a 1gate fe, and it crunches pretty much any attempt to break my fe. Plus it has ghosts to help out the tank fire. What's to lose?) with a midgame that had 2 factories making tanks, 3-5 raxes making MM and a naked port for the third M.
Problem? Shitty. Well, fairly decent, but it had holes. The main problem is that whilst I'd usually remove the gateway buffer units, I wouldn't be able to kill the colossus afterwards as they would be out of tank range, my MM usually got severely depleted during the clash and I had no vikings (the tanks replaced vikings). Eventually there would be far too many colossus and they'd just run through my tank line anyway.
The other problem was chargelots, but there is no real 'counter' to chargelots other then to just have lots of marines and upgrades (ie, fundamentals). Still hating the tank nerf, haha.
It did work really quite well sometimes though. I'm going to watch these newer replays and see if I can learn something.
|
On November 15 2010 04:45 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 02:08 Welmu wrote:
I dislike the title. It is not Goody's build and Goody didn't popularized it -.-.
But into subject, I've been also wondering why people don't play pure mech more. Tanks are really strong at big numbers and super difficult to stop. I agree with him, Goody gets so much credit for this but I see him fail a lot in most of his games. He didn't "create" the mech vs protoss build. I've been using this style from the start of sc2, even in beta, way before I even knew who Goody was.
Tanks were much better against Protoss in the beta, and were still pretty decent against Protoss in 1.0. Goody, if nothing else, deserves credit for sticking with this in 1.1.
|
On November 15 2010 06:42 HalfAmazing wrote:
If you want an example of just why mech is simply not an option against good protoss players, watch servoa vs socke on shakura's. Servy played it perfectly in my opinion, and still lost. There was nothing he could have done more effectively.
Is this the replay you're referring to?
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2818
|
Any new replays from GoOdy(or a very good player going Mech)?
|
Bump.
The general consensus seems to be a midgame Mech army (+EMP) rolls all Toss ground compositions. However a weakness to air and immobility are the main reasons mech is deemed not viable by the greater TL community.
But it is my belief Terran are not so vulnerable to air if certain aspects of the style are emphasised.
- Map dependancy: Mech will work much better with a easy to take and defend 3rd base just like in BW. I don't think you can't really win with Mech off 2 bases.
- Upgrades: Get 2 Armoury early and start upgrading fast. Perhaps cut tanks in favour of ups?
*Weakness to Air transitions
- Mix in a few Thors for anti-air. Eventhough they do not 'hard counter' P air it's better than having no anti air at all and they benefit greatly from your fast upgrades (+ 4 per air attack if i'm not mistaken)
- Constantly produce Ghosts. EMP is a godsend against everything. AND they shoot up! Ghosts + EMP + Thors solve weakness to air problem. Why not have a group of 10-15 Ghosts?
What about Carriers?
-When you have secured your third gas and you suspect Carriers then quickly throw down the tech for BATTLECRUISERS! Get Yamato asap and blow them away. You can upgrade them quickly with your double Armoury.
Stuff like this has to be tried before writing off Mech as unviable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
