EPT[D] GoOdy's Mech TvP - Page 3
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
But into subject, I've been also wondering why people don't play pure mech more. Tanks are really strong at big numbers and super difficult to stop. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 29 2010 21:23 deth wrote: Mech does not work vs competent protosses now that Tanks have been nerfed. P can double expand vs mech, sacrifice one of them and still be yards ahead. There's a reason why mech is almost non-existant at top level. It is weak. yah, good protosses rape mech, it really was something that was viable, but through all the massive nerfs, especially on tanks...if you go mech, you'll be out macro'd by any decent protoss. @poster above, I think I helped popularize the ghostmech idea tvp (with the hellion drops  ), but even I have had to abandon that because...it doesn't work  Protoss can manhandle you if you attempt a high tank count, and I think plexa said it has pitfalls but the main thing is...even mass zealots will rape your mech most of the time without trouble because of tanks doing less damage to them, immortals in there too, and collosus/phoenix. And then you're stuck on barely two base, and they have 4 base into mass voids or worse...carriers.And if ur army dies once - you lose the game. You can't re-macro a tank army as fast as even the most noobie of protosses can warp in another 12 zealots. It'd be nice if tanks didn't suck again. And were not so expensive. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
However, isn't that the same as Brood War? If the mech player isn't prepared for a Carrier switch he gets rolled too. There are no Goliaths anymore, but couldn't you protect your mech army with the new super-turrets and a few Vikings? GoOdy seems to build turrets as he pushes. In appropriate numbers, this should help deal with both Colossi and air. If you watch the match vs NightEnd on Steppes of War, GoOdy places his tanks just behind his turrets as he pushes across the map. If the Colossi attack the tanks, they take damage from the turrets. If they attack the turrets, they got shot by the tanks. Win-win and it also helps deal with air. So, are turrets not good enough? | ||
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Gobbles
Canada91 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On October 29 2010 17:06 zomgad wrote: if not void rays then the constant swithes from ground to air (hi instant warp in from 15 gatways) and mobility issues will kill you You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas. | ||
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tetramaster
Canada253 Posts
On October 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote: You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas. Now hold on a moment, the only reason you'd lack gas is if you went DT/Sentry/HT heavy with air, which you probably won't anyways since -HTs will end up damaging your interceptors significantly over time -DTs are only okay as long as they don't have turrets/a raven or spare scans (unlikely) -Sentries aren't really going to help vs Mech. Most of the time I go air against terran, I'll be throwing down sick numbers of zealots for flanking and as the real DPS. (treat carriers as meatshield generators for anything that can shoot air; only you're going to need to spend minerals, and they can fight back) The requisite number of stalkers to take out vikings (when they come out) might be an issue though when you go Zealot heavy. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
On October 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote: You seem to have a drastic misunderstanding of the Protoss playstyle. We can't contantly switch from ground to air. We don't have the gas. You aren't forced to choose one. You can open templar tech -- which is perfectly viable -- and then add some VR's once your macro kicks in (which it will because there's not much to stop it). | ||
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
On October 30 2010 03:09 Shlowpoke wrote: To the people saying that a midgame void ray switch kills mech... I acknowledge that that would roll a meching player over if they're not prepared. However, isn't that the same as Brood War? If the mech player isn't prepared for a Carrier switch he gets rolled too. There are no Goliaths anymore, but couldn't you protect your mech army with the new super-turrets and a few Vikings? GoOdy seems to build turrets as he pushes. In appropriate numbers, this should help deal with both Colossi and air. If you watch the match vs NightEnd on Steppes of War, GoOdy places his tanks just behind his turrets as he pushes across the map. If the Colossi attack the tanks, they take damage from the turrets. If they attack the turrets, they got shot by the tanks. Win-win and it also helps deal with air. So, are turrets not good enough? One word: MOBILITY. Turrets are strong vs air and colossi, its true. But the whole point of mech not as viable as MMM is due to cost. Re-macroing MMM takes a lot less gas and minerals than mech, and also requires lesser build times. Besides, MMM is not a final "ultimate" composition for T, as most competent Ts will expand/switch to more high tier units to support the MMM in later parts of the game. I myself like to expand to ghosts, vikings, banshees, 1 or 2 ravens (air force) against P, though I haven't played many games with this build yet. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
On October 30 2010 04:43 Setev wrote:One word: MOBILITY. Colossi make the Protoss army much more immobile, yet they're the standard play vs the extremely mobile MMM. I'm not sure just 'mobility' is a good enough argument. If you've watched Day9, some ways you deal with using an immobile army are careful positioning and controlling key points of terrain. Like expanding towards your opponent or sprinting to a certain area to cover the attack path to your new expansion. On October 30 2010 04:43 Setev wrote:Turrets are strong vs air and colossi, its true. But the whole point of mech not as viable as MMM is due to cost. Re-macroing MMM takes a lot less gas and minerals than mech, and also requires lesser build times. This could be an issue, I admit. However, if your strategy is to make a slow unstoppable ball, isn't it kind of obvious that if you lose the whole thing you've lost the game? If I'm playing 1 base Colossus and I lose my whole ball, I'm probably dead vs MMM since I won't reach critical mass again before they kill me. I'm not sure if it's fair to say this, but I want to say "If you're playing mech, be careful and don't lose all your damn tanks." It may be more difficult and unforgiving than MMM, but the reward for doing mech right is not getting destroyed by Colossi and Storm in the late game, isn't it? | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
I will watch these replays, maybe there is an answer in there somewhere. I did think about mass tanks, but I kind of wrote that off since z's completely destroy them now. I guess with the blue flame backing them they may have a chance. I do look forward to these replays, thanks for the post. Also, as has also been mentioned already, is you need a way to replenish your army, particularly since the protoss army is flat out better than yours pop for pop. Mech seems very slow building and once you lose that battle you are probably done as he warps in 2 rounds of units and attacks. I bet these replays have drops to counter this. Again, thanks for the post, I'll post here again after I watch some of these. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On October 30 2010 01:29 HalfAmazing wrote: The problem isn't that mech is crap vs protoss (it is), but that if you do anything at all to prepare for a long-ish game, you're way the fuck behind. There is only one way to play tvp with an advantage, and that is early mm pressure with perfect micro. SeleCT style. A good protoss mixing air with ground is simply unbeatable with mech. Vikings aren't good enough, don't come quickly enough, and should the rare circumstance arise that you manage to achieve air superiority, they quickly go mass ground and you're stuck with junk-ass vikings. Late game terran gets exposed by protoss and zerg macro mechanics. Going mech vs protoss should really point this out nicely to anyone who's not convinced. I have to agree here. I feel the only viable opener at this time vs the Toss is the 2 rax mm pressure into either 3rd rax for heavy pressure or expand. If I beat the toss it is pre 15 minutes. Once they get up an expand and get the warpgates and colossus/templar going you can not stand in their way. At that point constant drops is your only answer. | ||
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No0n
United States355 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161157 Examples in that thread. Once you hit a critical mass of tanks, immortals do not do so well and upgrades help. Getting fast upgrades means your vehicle weapons upgrades will be done quite fast so you can switch over to air upgrades to fend off the voidrays. Another thing you could do is a FE into 1/1/1 and make some hellions and drop ehllions, then stop making hellions for a bit and make tanks instead with vikings. Vikings have quite a high DPS versus ground so theyre not so bad versus immortal. Upgraded hellions actually do a lot of damage in their line splash, especially to zealots and HTs. | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
Mech just doesn't really have any advantages over marine/marauder/medivac/viking to make them worth using. You totally sacrifice all mobility for what? To instead of being worried about just colossus/HT to being worried about HT/immortals/colossus/Zealots/BlinkStalkers/voidrays/phoenix/carriers. The other huge thing is that medivacs give 2 roles to a MMM force, mobility and healing. If you want to do drops in your mech play you have to sacrifice 100/100 for what is just a dropship, it has no other purpose in your army and is just wasted resources after your drop. Mech needs anti-air support, Thors are not Goliaths. That means getting marines, that means getting medivacs, getting medivacs just for a few marines is not efficient use of resources. The alternative anti-air is the Viking, which is intended to be a flying Goliath in terms of design, but it doesn't work that well in this role as it isn't really that effect against protoss air. This also has the problem of taking gas away from mech unit production, and also doesn't benefit from vehicle upgrades and vikings pretty much suck as ground units. Generally mech in PvT has a couple of design issues. I don't mean that it is imbalanced as such, but more so that it is a bit broken, it just doesn't work as it should. | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
the probem is that the first drop needs to make huge damage or you are behind, the second problem is that you need to constant harass the P economy, while macroing a huge army up. Next problems are taking out expansions and techswitches (mass gatewayunits - > voidrays/phoenix -> massgateway units). right now im clueless about TvP, I try to play a macro style but its really hard to stay in the game @ the point where colossi with range and HTs with 75 enter the battlefield. TvP is like TvZ in sc1, if Z gets 4 gas you are dead and if P gets some colossi and HTs with ups you are dead. I think Terran will evolve into something like "build every single unit available". I really miss spidermines, they were so useful =/ | ||
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