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On October 29 2010 19:05 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:58 Thezzy wrote:On October 29 2010 18:43 jacosajh wrote:On October 29 2010 18:27 Thezzy wrote:
You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it. He just said that Thors should be in the front taking damage while the main damage dealers are in the back. It seems that even proponents of this build can't agree on that much. Where exactly did I state to put Thors in the front? (feel free to correct me if I did) The only time you really want Thors up fromt is when you want to bust an FF (usually on a ramp) but as I have explained doing so can be very risky as the Thors can be focus fired and killed. Any range units hitting the Thor when it is up front will be out of range of the Marines. You want the Thors to tank *some* of the damage, but not all of it, especially not all of the Zealot fire as they'll burn through a Thor if they surround it. See my posts above. You didn't say it. Someone else said it, and that's what I was referring too. Either way, Marines in front is going to get demolished by Colossus + FF. That is why IMO this build wouldn't work. The unit mix just doesn't allow you to do a whole lot of DPS. The Thor actually counter-acts the ability of the MMM ball that is so effective against Protoss. Slowing from Marauders, mobility and large DPS from stim, healing, kiting, etc. The money would be much better spent on Tanks. DPS would probably be very similar, have higher range, and aren't worthless bricks when casting a useless spell like 250 cannons. And like I said, IMO the replays the OP provided are POOR examples of this build working.
It's not an ideal build, agreed, Colossi (even without the range upgrade I think) would indeed decimate the Marines. In turn, if P went Immortals it may go a little different.
I'd think pushing up the ramp would be where it all turns messy.
Either the Marines would get stuck or the Thors would get focus fired.
I've been trying Tanks myself as part of a siege expand build, has some promise to it but haven't played with it nearly enough to really say much other than that.
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I just want to mention that 1946 in the US is a magnificent rating.
Wouldn't the standard zealots / high templars strategies defeat this easily?
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I tried this build against my friend yesterday (5 games) and got 1 win. The 4 games that I lost is because I let the Thor/Marine/Ghost army walked to the P base. Chargelots tanked for the P and despite EMP and all marines focusing on zealots (stalkers, sentries and colossi are out of range of even the front marines) the Thors died at the same time as the zealots. Thors died like less than 5 seconds almost at the same time. Marines are simply not a match against sentries/colossi/stalkers.
In final game I loaded all Thors into medivacs and dropped them right on the P after my marines and ghosts engage the P. One Thor died midair with the medivac, but then I killed his whole zealot sentry stalker colossi army with minimal losses.
Sorry folks I don't have replays as we played at a cyber cafe. This build looks promising but I still prefer MMM into ghosts vikings and ravens.
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I just cannot see this beating collossi.
You say that you position your army, that the marines are behind the thors and the thors tank the damage. Yet in a previous post you say that you use the 250mm to take out the collossi nearly the end of the battle, when the thors are long dead and you end up with marine ghost vs stalker collossus.
If you walk your thors up front and try to 250mm at the start of the battle, the thors die probably before the animation goes off. Ask TLO how that plan went.
Also collossi can simply kite the thors as they are more mobile and have higher range.
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Yeah... I couldn't get this to work for me. Maybe my micro isn't up to snuff but it's just too hard to manage. Thors are too damn slow.
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i had been practicing with a build similiar to this except i had 1 marauder with conc shells for easy kills and no combat shield, I love my ghosts
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When this is well executed it works quite well against me. The problem as P is you have to choose your robo units very carefully and not over-commit to them: Colosi don't do well vs. Thors, while immortals will have trouble with the marines, so you always feel a bit uneasy. I guess my issue is understanding how many units of each kind I need to counter what the T has at any given time - which is considerably harder with this build than with the standard mmm ball, where if you get collosi + lance fast, you're in good shape. Chargelots are key as always but get slightly delayed if you make a robo bay / colosus + too many immortals
On the other hand Thors are pretty immobile and clumsy, so drops/warp-ins are more effective than vs. the usual mmm balls, and backstabbing is a threat (keep your army mid-map and go to the T base once they move out).
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On October 29 2010 18:19 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:07 Thezzy wrote:
Be very cautious using your Thors to crush FFs, it puts them directly at the front-line and makes them very vulnerable to Stalker/Immortal fire. Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:09 Nargil wrote:
Well I see few holes in this. As mentioned before, I can't imagine this to be successfull against immortals + chargelots. I used to play thors in TvP a lot and let's say, that Immortal > Thor, emp or not. Also, mass chargelots will just slice the marines. I doubt even micro "mad skillz" would help here. 'Tis true, that marines are highly recyclable, but yet I don't know. Without really putting pressure on toss, I can't see this to be success.
Another quite big problem is, how are you going to defend those fast expansions with marines + thors? That army is just so damn slow. With a good harass, the toss will be able too deny your expansions, or at least rape your scvs all the time, while you will be "techno viking" marching with your thors through half of the map. I think everyone is underestimating how powerful an unmolested marine ball is in combat. This mix will ensure that the main DPS of the army is hiding behind huge, hard to kill units. By the time the zealot line has died the thor line should either be half dead (opp has mostly colossi) or fully dead (opp has mostly immortal) in which case stalker/sentry/immortal trading fire with marines is always disadvantage protoss. And this is how i full expect most fights to go.
why on earth would a protoss player do that...? i mean, just retreat, reposition, and re-engage. the terran is fighting on the protoss' terms, not the terran's, because that terran army lacks mobility with the inclusion of thors.
also, 250mm cannons are awful against colossus. when it is cast follow these steps to ensure your colossus takes zero damage:
1) look for thor 250mm animation to start
2) select warp prism
3) load up colossus into warp prism
4) let thor animation finish
5) unload colossus from warp prism
congrats, you look like an absolute baller and have thwarted his one way to kill the colossus. give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done
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I'd love to see more replays if you got them.
I don't want to dismiss this, since it looks pretty interesting, but both those games were not really action packed and just showed that in a straight up confrontation, the terran will likely win, while I'm a bit more interested in, can toss use the immobility against terran, perhaps get to HT/chargelots(mow down rines with storms behind thors and let chargelots kill thors), break this with a timing push/4gate, if with better micro the colossi with lance can become more of an issue.
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Yeah, really. The two replays provided showcased Protoss fighting on Terrans terms. If I didn't want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'd say the replays were set-up on purpose. But I really would like to see this work.
If you want to try this against build on someone who'll actually try to micro his units, please PM me so we can play a few games. I play Terran in 1v1, but I play Protoss in 2v2s 3v3s and 4v4s. I don't know alot of the timings in 1v1s for Protoss, but I'm just convinced that it'll take a lower-skilled Protoss to beat a higher-skilled Terran with this build.
But again, I'd like to see Terrans use Thors against Protoss, so I'd like to be proven wrong.
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On October 30 2010 02:49 jacosajh wrote:
Yeah, really. The two replays provided showcased Protoss fighting on Terrans terms. If I didn't want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'd say the replays were set-up on purpose. But I really would like to see this work.
If you want to try this against build on someone who'll actually try to micro his units, please PM me so we can play a few games. I play Terran in 1v1, but I play Protoss in 2v2s 3v3s and 4v4s. I don't know alot of the timings in 1v1s for Protoss, but I'm just convinced that it'll take a lower-skilled Protoss to beat a higher-skilled Terran with this build.
But again, I'd like to see Terrans use Thors against Protoss, so I'd like to be proven wrong.
We've been testing this build extensively. The first game we play (yes we've been testing this with numerous protoss players from 1500-2000+) we are usually left unaware of the build. Usually this ends in complete disaster.
The next game we play we're usually better prepared but that doesn't change much.
Void rays have been nerfed to hell and HTs can no long gib a shit ton of Thor HP with feedback. Even without upgrades the Thor is doing 60 damage per volley, if you have a handful of Thors you can easily vaporize Chargelots. With stimmed Marines + Ghosts picking up the loose ends.
Immortals, in theory are amazing but against Thors backed with M+G is problematic. 250 Cannon can easily level the playing field as it renders the immortal stunned and dead, EMP and Marine fire negates the powerful shields of Immortals.
Granted Zealot + Immortal assaults can down small number of Thors (we need to experiment more with this, Ghost + Marine combo might still prove very lethal when backed by a small number of Thors), once Thors hit a critical mass of 4-5+ then you're in trouble. The thing with this build is that the Terran player will hit critical mass in a very short period of time.
We're continuing to test this build against other Toss builds of all kinds. So far we've discovered that this Thor build CAN survive an early 4-gate rush with just bunkers, marines, and ghost, while still maintaining the ability to execute this Macro extensive build.
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On October 29 2010 10:40 RyanRushia wrote:
i feel like a robo-centric build would demolish this. colossus destroy marine/ghost and immoral WRECKS thors. also your 250mm portion is somewhat invalid vs good players, because they wont sit there in the AOE and take the full brunt of the damage. I can personally say that i've never lost to thor users as a protoss player... i actually prefer Terran to use them because of how ineffective they are
im not trying to bash on the OP, merely stating that theoretic descriptions (250mm example) aren't always applicable in actual-game scenarios
In order for the 5 range immortals to wreck the 7 range thors, they would have to be at the front of your army. In which case marines would destroy them and you would have to be macroing your immortals or their shots would be wasted.
The second problem with your arguement is that you are using immortals and Colossi. These units both come out of the robo facility and they both take rediculously long to build.
Colossi 65 sec
Immortal 55 sec
Thor 55 sec
With 2 robo facilities up it would take you 3 minutes + to make 4 colossi and 2 immortals.
Not nearly enough to even reach the thor. Then you have to consider that with EMP, immortals are an even worse unit than they already are. Glass cannon marines can quickly demolish your gateway forces and then it's thors vs colossi.
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On October 29 2010 11:50 STS17 wrote:
Not for nothing but if 250mm has range 7 and immortal has range 5 then couldn't you target the immortals with it? It ignores hardened shields and kills them in one cast of the spell, leaving the rest of your army to deal with the rest of his. Though I think the thors are better off focusing the collosi, which they can hit from range 10 if needed with their air attack.
I tested this out a while ago and thors will NEVER use their GTA attack on colossi:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151085
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damn, what i up with you terrans?
cant you stick to bio and lose once in a while?
NO, you cant! why do you always have to figure out new strategies to implement new unbeatable army compositions?
damn, i want beta back, where every terran just played 3 rax marauder period.
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i dont understand how thors with range 10 and marines with dps of a ultralisk with range lose to air. especially not with the ray nerfed
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On October 30 2010 04:02 ensis wrote:
i dont understand how thors with range 10 and marines with dps of a ultralisk with range lose to air. especially not with the ray nerfed
Cause VRs don't come without Zeals and sentries, and Thors do bonus to light air, which VRs are not. The VRs outrange the marines, and the marines cannot stand toe to toe with the zealots, so they must stim n run kite, which actually makes it worse for them because the VRs pick them off easy.
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If you guys want to do extensive testing on this build, add me!
RoyaLTigeR.723
I understand all your concern and all and those were my concerns as well when jemag first presented the build to me, but once I tried it and gave it thorough testing, I see it has true potential.
First I was discouraged also because I did not understand when or how to do engagements and kept losing. But now I'm understanding the build more and more and it has a lot of potential (granted potential doesn't mean it is a legit build so therefore more testing)
GIVE THIS BUILD A TRY WITH US!!!
YOU DO NOT ENGAGE COLOSSI WITH 250MM!! That would be disastrous. You guys don't realize how much damage Thors in front can do. There are a lot of battles I thought I would lose but I end up winning by a big margin. Like I said, give it a try and do extensive testing on it with me or someone else before shooting it down.
MMG are superior at the early stage because of the pressure and mobility but late game MMG get melt by protoss easily. You have to out flank the protoss, drop on them, do harassment if you are planning to go the bio route. With this build, you can take the protoss HEAD ON. Watch the replays first for a simple idea on how to do the build. The BO is not perfect right now, I am still tweaking it a lot so it would be nice if you guys give it some tweaking also.
Someone mentioned something about positioning and stuff and yes, this build does depends on positioning and how to engage the opponents but doesn't ALL build requires that? If you can just a click your army and win, that would be OP. =\
Someone also mentioned about how colossi rape marines and zealots/immortals rape thors. On paper, yes. But in actual battle, it's otherwise. They're fighting on equal terms, it's up to the micro and positioning that win the battle.
If anyone have doubts about this build, just add me on B.Net (NA) and we'll do testing. I would love to test this build to death to see if it's viable or not.
Thank you for all the feedback!!!
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I just cannot see this beating collossi.
You say that you position your army, that the marines are behind the thors and the thors tank the damage. Yet in a previous post you say that you use the 250mm to take out the collossi nearly the end of the battle, when the thors are long dead and you end up with marine ghost vs stalker collossus.
If you walk your thors up front and try to 250mm at the start of the battle, the thors die probably before the animation goes off. Ask TLO how that plan went.
To be honest I really don't see this build any more vulnerable to mass colossi than a bioball build is, and prolly less vulnerable.
What I meant by the mid-end part of the battle is you have to realise how quickly this build (knowing u focus highly on attack upgrades) melt away protoss units. His ball size will reduce really quickly and once that happens, now is the time to use 250 mm cannon.
Also, like stated in the first posts, you can add a few vikings in the mix if he goes colossi heavy, or a few medvac / pre-igniter helions if he goes chargelot immortal heavy.
For the replays, I will try to get some more up but the thing is that it is hard for me to get some replays as I'm not the one executing the strategy :O. If any high level terran is interested in me guiding him through a couple of games using this strategy, we could get a lot more replays up.
You can add me if you want jemag char code : 336
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On October 30 2010 04:08 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 04:02 ensis wrote:
i dont understand how thors with range 10 and marines with dps of a ultralisk with range lose to air. especially not with the ray nerfed Cause VRs don't come without Zeals and sentries, and Thors do bonus to light air, which VRs are not. The VRs outrange the marines, and the marines cannot stand toe to toe with the zealots, so they must stim n run kite, which actually makes it worse for them because the VRs pick them off easy.
On the other hand I'd assume when you get a ball of Thors, they become more effective whilst the VRs become less so, due to splash. So either the VRs are forced to somewhat spread out, making it easier for the rines to get in range of them or face splash, which given enough thors would hurt. I mean after patch, a VR kills a thor taking ~50 hull dmg, but if each thor hits at least 2 VRs, I'd assume they'd be pretty cost effective.
In any case, not opening robo is quite close to suicide vs a 1/1/1, so stargate play I'd assume is even more risky than this build might be.
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EPT
