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Sounds very vulnerable to chargelot play, even with EMP, the lots should be able to demolish thors with enough sentry support. Zealots also have a hardier amount of regular life, as compared to immortals which is the biggest priority of this build.
Also, biomech is also a lot slower on upgrades, going heavy bio means mech is a lot weaker, but investing more in mech means your mass marauder rine won't benefit from stuff like dual engineering bays right away. I also feel like it lack a nice harassment and aggresive timing to it, theres no point where you can 1a win with other terran strategies. It also is fairly immobile, thus making it harder to deny expansion then straight up MMM transition into ghosts.
side note. You should also have the game sense and scouting abilities to know when you need to build turrets or not, there is absolutely no place for it to be in the standard BO.
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Sounds very vulnerable to chargelot play, even with EMP, the lots should be able to demolish thors with enough sentry support. Zealots also have a hardier amount of regular life, as compared to immortals which is the biggest priority of this build.
Also, biomech is also a lot slower on upgrades, going heavy bio means mech is a lot weaker, but investing more in mech means your mass marauder rine won't benefit from stuff like dual engineering bays right away. I also feel like it lack a nice harassment and aggresive timing to it, theres no point where you can 1a win with other terran strategies. It also is fairly immobile, thus making it harder to deny expansion then straight up MMM transition into ghosts.
side note. You should also have the game sense and scouting abilities to know when you need to build turrets or not, there is absolutely no place for it to be in the standard BO.
The thing is that strategy really have a whole other play style than the rest of the current strategies terran uses. I would say terrans at this current moment in time rely heavily on any MMM combination and on timing pushes.
This strategy really isnt about aggressiveness, it is about HIGH MACRO mode. Basically, you don't really need to attack the protoss early, you don't really want to attack him until you get your 3rd base, which will happen really quick. The point is once you get your first expo, you can really go in uber macro mode, almost zerg-like style of play, and keep expanding with very little time intervals.
The thing with this strategy is that you can stay defensive and really dont fear much from the protoss (since you can always bring some scvs to auto-repair defending thors and use bunkers if needed).
As for the zealots, yes it is a somehow of a small vulnerability but you can quickly adjust on it.
Basically if he goes really heavy on chargelots, you just add a few pre-igniter helions. If he goes heavy on colossus you get a few vikings with the starport. If he goes heavy on immortals and low on colossus, just add a few medivacs, etc... It's all about adapting while keeping the core of your army being Thors-marines-ghosts.
oh and about the turret I actually didnt see it in the build order. I havnt done the precise build order but rather the big gameplan and principles around the strategy and my friend did the build order. I will rectify this.
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Why does this entire thread ignore the existence of the protoss stargate?
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Why does this entire thread ignore the existence of the protoss stargate?
What about the stargate? :O
I don't really see any stargate play being effective against this to be honest. Phoenix just plain sux against mass marine ghosts thors as well as void rays. As for carriers, it is really far into the tech path and you should have plenty of time adjusting by getting few viking in the mix, but really shouldn't be a problem.
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Regarding the turret, it costs 100 minerals. Most Protoss players will always have an observer in your base anyways. Most of the time I managed to kill the opponent's observer that way. Beside, it's 100 minerals, it helps more than hurt, why not get it? IF the Protoss DID manage to sneak in some DT without you knowing it, the turret there will save your ass and you don't need to waste scan on DT's. 100 minerals vs the 270 potential minerals, I'll take the turret any day.
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On October 29 2010 12:17 jemag wrote:What about the stargate? :O I don't really see any stargate play being effective against this to be honest. Phoenix just plain sux against mass marine ghosts thors as well as void rays. As for carriers, it is really far into the tech path and you should have plenty of time adjusting by getting few viking in the mix, but really shouldn't be a problem.
Doesn't take much longer to get carriers than it does to get thors.
You are overestimating vikings vs carriers, cost for cost it is a very close fight.
VRs >> thors if I'm not mistaken?
I won't dispute that marines will do well, but if you want them to hit anything, you need to move into range of psi storm. Not that this means 'omfgurdead' or anything, but it's a micro thing and should be winnable by either side.
And last but not least, air units fly, thors are slow as hell.
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That's the whole point Keilah, to have a micro fight and should be able to be winnable by either side. I feel like mass bio ball vs Protoss is a dead end nowadays because once it hits late game, the Terran have to be tricky, pull off gimmicky stuff or already have an advantage or is out right a lot better than the Protoss to win. With this build, it negates that problem and you can go head to head with the Protoss so it comes down to whoever have the better macro/micro/strategy that wins.
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Fair enough. I suppose it's hard to achieve, but if you make it to super-late game, try making a large group of battlecruisers. The things are beasts against anything toss can throw at them, including VRs. Seriously, try a cost-for-cost BC vs VR battle in large numbers.
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I just lost to this vs a terran 
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I think more people would be willing to try this if you made the OP more presentable.
Look at the "[G] TvZ Marine/Raven" thread; well formatted OP = great community feedback.
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The thors soak up alot of damage and are effective against stalkers so a stalker/colossus ball might falter a little against this. I feel like if i were to make a more zealot heavy army or focus down the thors one by one with the stalkers i might come out ahead. Thors also eat entire psi storms because of their speed. Immortals actually seem to be pretty bad against this. I like this it seems pretty solid but i don't think its going to break PvT or anything.
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Just a minor thing, I would recommend getting shield before stim. There have been tests done before on this, and basically, stim early on isn't as good because you have less units and the life damage they take will actually matter since they will most likely be hit in an engagement. Sorry if that sounds confusing. Stim is better used when you have a large force because the units in the back aren't taking damage, and they basically get a free boost to attack. Shields also finishes before stim, which would help in an early attack.
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It's not supposed to break TvP. It's supposed to make it an even battlefield where it's the players' skills determines the outcome instead of T's OPness early game and P's OPness late game that wins the game. Of course this is all theory right now and there are many more patches to come but as of now, I see great potential in this build. But of course it would be nice if every Protoss tries to find a way to beat this build hands down with some rushes or some unit combo (assuming the Terran is at equal skill) so we can test the legitimacy of this build.
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This build sounds like it has potential!
As a protoss I can't remember the last time I played a Terran that didn't go for 3m. Maybe throw in tanks if they are especially adventurous.
I'm all for trying new strats and army compositions, I think it was Day9 who suggested trying out things like 10 times in a row before you decide one way or another.
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The biggest issue is keeping your Thors alive and holding off an early push.
Marine/Ghost is good, but it lacks raw DPS/Health that Marauders normally provide.
It'll fend off a Void Ray or two, but an early Zealot/Stalker push may be very hard to stop.
Thors are tricky, even though Marine/Ghosts hurt Zealots a lot, they'll still block your Thors and hit them a bit before they die. If you add Immortals which deal a whopping 50dmg per hit to Thors, they die very quickly, even without shields as they'll still have 200hp in armor.
Void Rays in numbers will really hurt as you won't have anything that really does bonus damage to them.
EMP is good, but two thirds of Zealot/Immortal health is in armor.
You'll also be relying on EMP hitting pretty much everything, especially all the Immortals.
If even one Immortal has shields after the EMP, it can get messy pretty fast.
Still, it's good on close/small maps and is quite different from 3rax, and any Protoss expecting the standard MMM is going to be unpleasantly surprised. (even more so when you negate the FF with a Thor)
You can get Thors relatively early (around 6-7minutes), but you won't have much else.
The tech needed is also quite gas heavy, Ghosts, Academy, Factory, Armory and the Thors.
Wouldn't recommend it as much on a large map though, Thor mobility is terrible.
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I have been working on this build and tweaking it. As of now, you need 2 bunkers to hold off a 4 gate push and the ghost did not really help much. I'm thinking of getting ghosts a bit later, maybe when the factory is being started or even when the armory is being started. Not sure which one is better yet. I need to do extensive testing with some protoss and terran. If you are interested in getting this build to work (or test it to death and find out it doesn't work), message me on bnet! RoyaLTigeR.723
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Thanks OP! Cool build will try it out tonight. I really need all the help I can get in this MU. I like the early strength of mass marines but I think CS is better than stim as a first upgrade. Most toss run away from stim before you have medivacs.
Concerning positioning the thors up front I'm a little worried what happens in Chokes. Marine range is so small that if the thors form a slight line you'll get huge losses to dps. At the other hand marines die quickly to collossi, storms and zeals so you cant keep them in the front either.
Question to OP: Have you ecountered a speedlot/sentry-heavy combination with this build? Unless you can transition into hellions fast the sentries GS and FF will cut away lots (if not all) of maine dps and make the thors vulnerable to zeals.
Once again I don't mean to bash the build, I appreciate all TvP help!
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FF don't work on thors. =P I ran into that before and the thors and marines own that combo.
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To all the people talking about stargate vulnerability: whoot?
Marines EAT Carriers AND voids. There's no better counter to an air heavy protoss than this build. I'd say it's even beetter than mass vikings.
If you see more than one carrier start armor upgrades. It's a free win.
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On October 29 2010 18:02 RoyaL-TigeR wrote:
FF don't work on thors. =P I ran into that before and the thors and marines own that combo.
Wow thanks for the quick response 
Yeah I know huge units crush FF, BUT: what if they do two rows of FF behind the first marine-line. The thors cant walk over marines like collossi so they'll be stuck and the marines can't reach the battle?
EDIT: I guess that's when ghosts come in EMPing the sentries. Still if you're not careful you might get FFsplit.
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EPT
