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On October 29 2010 12:51 Keilah wrote:
Fair enough. I suppose it's hard to achieve, but if you make it to super-late game, try making a large group of battlecruisers. The things are beasts against anything toss can throw at them, including VRs. Seriously, try a cost-for-cost BC vs VR battle in large numbers.
Mainly won by BCs because of Yamato, though. I'm pretty sure Amove Voidrays will win. There were a few threads about this...
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Be very cautious using your Thors to crush FFs, it puts them directly at the front-line and makes them very vulnerable to Stalker/Immortal fire.
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Well I see few holes in this. As mentioned before, I can't imagine this to be successfull against immortals + chargelots. I used to play thors in TvP a lot and let's say, that Immortal > Thor, emp or not. Also, mass chargelots will just slice the marines. I doubt even micro "mad skillz" would help here. 'Tis true, that marines are highly recyclable, but yet I don't know. Without really putting pressure on toss, I can't see this to be success.
Another quite big problem is, how are you going to defend those fast expansions with marines + thors? That army is just so damn slow. With a good harass, the toss will be able too deny your expansions, or at least rape your scvs all the time, while you will be "techno viking" marching with your thors through half of the map.
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You want to have thors in the front line when you engage the enemy. They're the tanker for your army. Marines are in the back standing by to support the thors if there are mass zealots or mass immortals. If there are colossi, the marines stay back and only shoot the zealots that get close.
Regarding FF, how would the sentries FF your forces if the thors are in front and the marines are further back? You also have EMP so if you're quick enough you can negate too many FF's. And regarding the two rows of FF's, can you clarify?
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Nargil, Thors and marines do really well against immortals and zealots actually, especially with EMP's. We can easily test this out on b.net over and over. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, just from my own experience. ^^ And regarding the multiple harassment from the Protoss, I guess you just need to have sensor towers and spread out your army a bit better. I mean.. Protoss can easily say "how do you defend 3 drops with marines while the T is pushing you?" etc etc. It all comes down to how the players stay calm and handle it.
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Ok, i'll try to paint it in txt format 
ZZSSZZSSZ
ZZZZZZZZZZ
TTTTTTTTTT
mmmmmm
FFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFF
mmmmmm
mmmmmmm
the last rows of m are out of range.
EDIT: It's a frickin masterpiece !!! DaVinci stylEee!
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I dunno, I've used both Thors or Tanks in TvP, and Tanks seem way more effective.
Their DPS is not all that bad and is going to be useful since every Protoss is GOING TO HAVE Stalkers and most likely Templars and/or Colossi. The Range is also ridiculous.
Add the fact that Tanks are way more mobile, and in some situations, I would consider the Tank to have higher DPS. After all, you can't do damage if you're not there. Thors take forever to get anywhere. And for using cannons, goodluck getting in range and losing, what is it? 10 seconds for 500 damage. I'd rather have 2 Tanks shooting for 10 seconds. Who needs Stun when you have Marauders anyways?
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On October 29 2010 18:07 Thezzy wrote:
Be very cautious using your Thors to crush FFs, it puts them directly at the front-line and makes them very vulnerable to Stalker/Immortal fire.
On October 29 2010 18:09 Nargil wrote:
Well I see few holes in this. As mentioned before, I can't imagine this to be successfull against immortals + chargelots. I used to play thors in TvP a lot and let's say, that Immortal > Thor, emp or not. Also, mass chargelots will just slice the marines. I doubt even micro "mad skillz" would help here. 'Tis true, that marines are highly recyclable, but yet I don't know. Without really putting pressure on toss, I can't see this to be success.
Another quite big problem is, how are you going to defend those fast expansions with marines + thors? That army is just so damn slow. With a good harass, the toss will be able too deny your expansions, or at least rape your scvs all the time, while you will be "techno viking" marching with your thors through half of the map.
I think everyone is underestimating how powerful an unmolested marine ball is in combat. This mix will ensure that the main DPS of the army is hiding behind huge, hard to kill units. By the time the zealot line has died the thor line should either be half dead (opp has mostly colossi) or fully dead (opp has mostly immortal) in which case stalker/sentry/immortal trading fire with marines is always disadvantage protoss. And this is how i full expect most fights to go.
The whole point of the thors is to absorb damage from the initial charge and once the zealots are dead move in close to cannon collosi or full hp immortals.
As for defending, the best defence is a relentless offence and this build seems pretty effective at all army sizes (compared to bioball/tank) so lots of pressure shouldn't be too hard
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On October 29 2010 18:18 jacosajh wrote:
I dunno, I've used both Thors or Tanks in TvP, and Tanks seem way more effective.
Their DPS is not all that bad and is going to be useful since every Protoss is GOING TO HAVE Stalkers and most likely Templars and/or Colossi. The Range is also ridiculous.
Add the fact that Tanks are way more mobile, and in some situations, I would consider the Tank to have higher DPS. After all, you can't do damage if you're not there. Thors take forever to get anywhere. And for using cannons, goodluck getting in range and losing, what is it? 10 seconds for 500 damage. I'd rather have 2 Tanks shooting for 10 seconds. Who needs Stun when you have Marauders anyways?
You may be missing the point of the build. the majority of DPS is being done by the marines and the thors are just frontlining whereas bioball tank requires bioball to frontline.. Thor usage in this build isn't about DPS but is about keeping some of the best DPS/cost units in the game alive to do their thing.
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Oh I see what you mean Cibron. Like I said, you're not supposed to have the marines that close anyways. Only thors and ghosts. And with quick EMP, you can cut down the amount of FF the protoss can throw up. I mean, it comes down to micro and positioning and whoever does it better will win. So yeah, that CAN be a problem but it seems quite hard if the terran is paying attention and have good positioning.
jacosajh, have you watched the replays yet? I gave up on this build for a good while until jemag told me to build this way and now I'm seeing potential for it. Of course the BO is not perfect (it has problem vs 4 gates) but I've been tweaking it, etc. It would be nice if we have more people do thorough testing on this to get it working! I mean, look at kcdc's 1 gate FE build, a lot of people doubted it but it turned out to be such a great build! Maybe we can do something with this build also.
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On October 29 2010 18:19 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:07 Thezzy wrote:
Be very cautious using your Thors to crush FFs, it puts them directly at the front-line and makes them very vulnerable to Stalker/Immortal fire. Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:09 Nargil wrote:
Well I see few holes in this. As mentioned before, I can't imagine this to be successfull against immortals + chargelots. I used to play thors in TvP a lot and let's say, that Immortal > Thor, emp or not. Also, mass chargelots will just slice the marines. I doubt even micro "mad skillz" would help here. 'Tis true, that marines are highly recyclable, but yet I don't know. Without really putting pressure on toss, I can't see this to be success.
Another quite big problem is, how are you going to defend those fast expansions with marines + thors? That army is just so damn slow. With a good harass, the toss will be able too deny your expansions, or at least rape your scvs all the time, while you will be "techno viking" marching with your thors through half of the map. I think everyone is underestimating how powerful an unmolested marine ball is in combat. This mix will ensure that the main DPS of the army is hiding behind huge, hard to kill units. By the time the zealot line has died the thor line should either be half dead (opp has mostly colossi) or fully dead (opp has mostly immortal) in which case stalker/sentry/immortal trading fire with marines is always disadvantage protoss. And this is how i full expect most fights to go. The whole point of the thors is to absorb damage from the initial charge and once the zealots are dead move in close to cannon collosi or full hp immortals. As for defending, the best defence is a relentless offence and this build seems pretty effective at all army sizes (compared to bioball/tank) so lots of pressure shouldn't be too hard
The problem is that with Thors in front, the MMM army is doing less DPS since they probably won't all be able to attack due to range. Like Marines have what, 4 or 5 range, and Thors essentially take up 3 of that? So anything a little short of the Thors and the Marines arne't shooting. In the process, the marines can be reached by range upgraded Stalkers and/or Stormed to oblivion. And Zealots aren't meant to do damage. They just soak up damage. It's the Stalkers/Immortals/Colossi that kill, so even if you kill the Zealots, congrats, you just traded your army for Protoss moveable wall that will be replaced in a few seconds for minerals the Protoss probably has plenty of.
Edit:
I have used a similar build in Beta that I grinded for about a week with mixed success, and what I am saying is from my experience with using Thors.
In my experience, most of my wins with using Thors was the Protoss not having enough Immortals/Colossi due to some decisions that were forced outside of this build.
I guess I can give it another go though.
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You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it.
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Ok, this is definitely something I'll try out the coming week. Hopefully Yemag and R-T will be here to adjust the buildorders and stuff as P learn how to counter it better.
Thanks guys!
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On October 29 2010 18:27 Thezzy wrote:
You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it.
It all depends on if the P is immortal heavy or collossi heavy. Immortal&Zeal-> marines up front while collossi-> marines behind.
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I like this build, but i think your opener need a little bit of tweaking as you try to get too much at once.
Either I would go for the Gretorp opener, with a very fast second Rax (no addon) and Ghost Academy on one gas, soon followed by a CC.
Or I would do a standard 2 Rax (1 T.Lab, 1 Reactor) opener with Stim and Shield upgrades, and again a CC asap. In both cases I would stay on 1 Gas till the CC has started and then get the second one and start my Fac.
I can post exact build orders if someone wants them.
Also please edit the thread title to TvP Marine / Ghost / Thor or something similiar. At first I thought this thread is about Boxers TvP build, which I consider the new (proven) way / one new way.
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On October 29 2010 18:27 Thezzy wrote:
You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it.
He just said that Thors should be in the front taking damage while the main damage dealers are in the back. It seems that even proponents of this build can't agree on that much.
Anyways, I just watched the replays and I'm still not convinced.
In one of the games, the Protoss does no harassment of any kind. Terran expands 2 extra times, on top of natural pretty much for free. And the Protoss probe saturation wasn't very good, making me question just how good the Protoss was. And not to mention that the one and only battle, the Protoss did not position or micro well at all. The Colossus were shooting at the Thors, EMP'ed Stalkers/Immortals getting shot at my Stimmed Marines and not focusing the Thors. No Charge on the Zealots or Blink. Protoss never makes an attempt to expand for a 2nd time after natural despite seeing the Terran do so. Just poor play IMO.
In the second game, the Protoss expands too. A little better in that regard. But, makes basically 75% of his army with Zealots. Could work, but again, in the one and only battle, the Protoss chooses to engage in the worst possible ways. 1. Colossus are shooting at Thors again. 2. Forcefields pretty much the ramp preventing his Zealots from getting to the Marines/Thors. 3. Half of the army is sitting on high ground not doing anything. 4. There is no flank in any way, shape, or form.
In game one, if the Colossus had been shooting at Marines instead, and Immortals/Stalkers focusing the Thors, and Forcefield was actually used, I'm convinced the Terran army would've gotten demolished.
In game two, if Protoss scouted the incoming attack better, a flank would've absolutely demolished that army as well. Or in the very least, traded armies. I still think Immortals/Stalkers/Colossi would destroy this build but maybe Chargelots/Immortals/Colossi would've done well too if a flank was set-up properly.
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Marine ghost opening is old as dirt. It's very abusive and potent although it is heavily underused.
Transitioning to Thors after it is a terrible idea. Being good against 1 response but bad versus every other doesn't really do it justice, Also blind tech is a very bad idea unless it can be used against almost all units.
Anything from the starport, including BCs would be better in almost any situation.
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I haven't seen terran use a lot of tier 3 against protoss lately.. but what about battlecruisers? I don't know the exact cost.. but they are about the same as thors.. could be a very viable follow up after a marine + banshee push..
The only viable option for anti air unless he scounts your BCs very early on is void rays, which vikings + marines will take care of fine. Bcs are great against stalkers, and stalkers take a very long time to kill them.
Just a thought! Ide love to see more BCs in high level play.. I feel like if something gets nerfed just a little bit no one touches the unit for months.
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On October 29 2010 18:43 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:27 Thezzy wrote:
You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it. He just said that Thors should be in the front taking damage while the main damage dealers are in the back. It seems that even proponents of this build can't agree on that much.
Where exactly did I state to put Thors in the front? (feel free to correct me if I did)
The only time you really want Thors up fromt is when you want to bust an FF (usually on a ramp) but as I have explained doing so can be very risky as the Thors can be focus fired and killed.
Any range units hitting the Thor when it is up front will be out of range of the Marines.
You want the Thors to tank *some* of the damage, but not all of it, especially not all of the Zealot fire as they'll burn through a Thor if they surround it.
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On October 29 2010 18:52 Zythian wrote:
I haven't seen terran use a lot of tier 3 against protoss lately.. but what about battlecruisers? I don't know the exact cost.. but they are about the same as thors.. could be a very viable follow up after a marine + banshee push..
The only viable option for anti air unless he scounts your BCs very early on is void rays, which vikings + marines will take care of fine. Bcs are great against stalkers, and stalkers take a very long time to kill them.
Just a thought! Ide love to see more BCs in high level play.. I feel like if something gets nerfed just a little bit no one touches the unit for months.
BCs are slow, but are more mobile than Thors, but take more supply and cost more. BCs are 400/300. Thors are 300/200. And they can be feedbacked, unlike the Thor which had energy removed, as well as easily focus fired. Most importantly, that's potentially 4 less Marauders + gas for other things. 4 Marauders have way more DPS against common Protoss army than 1 BC, and this is magnified when you see that Marauders get healed, have slowing attack, and can Stim, allowing you to kite and dodge Storms/battles altogether.
And yes, BCs may take Stalkers head-on, but the more BCs you have the less marauders you have, so the more Stalkers he has, and so on. So basically, he'll have enough Stalkers to focus your BCs probably. I don't know because I've never tried BCs against Protoss for these simple reasons. But BCs do work against Terran pretty well, just like it did in SC1. I'm not too sure about vs Zerg, since Corruptors absolutely destroy air units that in equal investment size.
But to get back to the main topic, I also tested Thors/Ghosts/Marine vs Standard Protoss army of equal investment size, and Protoss won like 90% of the time. Provided, this was on a unit tester map, and not real games, so it's isolated from all the other real-game facts like macroing and reinforcing your units. But the results from my test show that Protoss usually has a large army left-over, and with two evenly-skilled players, that's huge. I am really curious to see any games where it's otherwise.
On October 29 2010 18:58 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:43 jacosajh wrote:On October 29 2010 18:27 Thezzy wrote:
You want your Thors in the back, as they have 7 range compared to Marines having 5.
Let some of the Marines take the Zealot fire whilst they and the Thors whack them.
Thors completely exposed on the front mean Marines (good as they are) are gonna have trouble supporting them against ranged units such as Immortals and Stalkers.
Also means every Zealot will get a surround on the Thor, which is bad.
400hp isn't all THAT much when everything is firing on it. He just said that Thors should be in the front taking damage while the main damage dealers are in the back. It seems that even proponents of this build can't agree on that much. Where exactly did I state to put Thors in the front? (feel free to correct me if I did) The only time you really want Thors up fromt is when you want to bust an FF (usually on a ramp) but as I have explained doing so can be very risky as the Thors can be focus fired and killed. Any range units hitting the Thor when it is up front will be out of range of the Marines. You want the Thors to tank *some* of the damage, but not all of it, especially not all of the Zealot fire as they'll burn through a Thor if they surround it.
See my posts above. You didn't say it. Someone else said it, and that's what I was referring too. Either way, Marines in front is going to get demolished by Colossus + FF. That is why IMO this build wouldn't work. The unit mix just doesn't allow you to do a whole lot of DPS. The Thor actually counter-acts the ability of the MMM ball that is so effective against Protoss. Slowing from Marauders, mobility and large DPS from stim, healing, kiting, etc. The money would be much better spent on Tanks. DPS would probably be very similar, have higher range, and aren't worthless bricks when casting a useless spell like 250 cannons.
And like I said, IMO the replays the OP provided are POOR examples of this build working.
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EPT
