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SaLaYa
United States363 Posts
Something he did have however that was not mentioned in the OP was a quite nice harassment that attempted to tie up my larva use. -Using the starport, made 2x vikings knows that I was going roach/hydra instead of muta to harass OL's. -Really nice dual drops with a medvac at my main and turrets from ravens at my expo. I really like where this strat is going. I feel like there are some cute little timing attacks that can be fine tuned within this build, good work. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On October 25 2010 23:54 GlocKomA wrote: I ran across and 1800+ Terran on the ladder last night (1700 Zerg here) using this strat. The thing I found to hurt him was that the strat just didn't prepare him well for a big macro playstyle. I saw an FE, I went for my gold and just macro'd up roaches/hydras after not scouting tanks. His army was being cost effective, but I just had too much stuff and he couldn't hold ground. Something he did have however that was not mentioned in the OP was a quite nice harassment that attempted to tie up my larva use. -Using the starport, made 2x vikings knows that I was going roach/hydra instead of muta to harass OL's. -Really nice dual drops with a medvac at my main and turrets from ravens at my expo. I really like where this strat is going. I feel like there are some cute little timing attacks that can be fine tuned within this build, good work. Do you have a rep?  | ||
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
This helps Also, I like that viking OL harass and drops will be pretty easy to play off this build, which is great because I love both of those. With tanks, this would be perfect. | ||
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Demetrious
United States9 Posts
Sorry if my questions seem overzealous, I just really want to wrap my head around this build. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
 Considering how imba Z is right now, especially versus T, I have been experimenting with mass ravens, marines/med/tank as well...as it's the only thing that really seems viable long term...and even then, it still gets raped from Zergs.The only problem of why this will never work versus a good Zerg is because HSM is so slow that they always can run their entire ling/muta/baneling/roach ball directly into your army and suicide it, and the HSMs actually help them more than you. It has some potential though... Here are some replays: Starting into mass raven if I remember right. Manage to kill lots of banelings with HSM, but that was more or less the Zerg's bad control than me doing something good. Unlike irradiate, HSM leaves the game in the hands of your opponent after it's cast  ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160483.jpg) I think I didn't pay attention for 1 split second, if I remember right...and lost 5000 marines. Otherwise this replay might be a mech replay lol. Can't remember. If it's mech, you can lol @ how hard zerg can crush that now too with late game ultras + neural. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160487.jpg) This one is an incredibly long TvZ with marine/tank/raven/medivac into -> Zerg macros and defends -> muta harrasses you -> into you lose. Which is basically every TvZ this patch. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160488.jpg) | ||
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MorningMusume11
United States3490 Posts
Also, I think it goes without saying that Medivacs are quite useful in this situation. ![[image loading]](http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7203/plaguumuta.jpg) Hero Muta misses his PLAGUU. This comment is just nostalgic ^^ | ||
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Pixelcat
United States3 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
also i think pickin just marine/raven is soo single minded, ravens def arent as good as sci vessels and i think that is gonna be a massive issue. mutas/ling/bling with or without infestors easily own this build unless u can get a timing push in b4 mutas pop. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
I'd add tanks to kill of blings/infestors though. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On October 26 2010 01:30 PhiliBiRD wrote: id like to see this vs some better zerg players.. also i think pickin just marine/raven is soo single minded, ravens def arent as good as sci vessels and i think that is gonna be a massive issue. mutas/ling/bling with or without infestors easily own this build unless u can get a timing push in b4 mutas pop. You clearly did not watch ANY of the replays. His entire army was consistently being destroyed by Blings/Lings/Mutas but since he had like 10 raxes with reactors he was able to consistently pump out entire new armies in moments, with only minerals. While Ravens never lose their purpose of awesome HSM's and whatnot. Muta's are worthless, if even ONE HSM hits a muta ball, they'll lose. Blings are good, but you're trading out a relatively expensive unit (especially in terms of gas) while losing your entire army. And by the time you do that, they already have an entire new army coming. I've tried this a few times in Plat, am 1-1 with it. Lost it because I was cocky. It just overwhelms the zerg, because as OP put it, they need to delay their tech and spend a BUNCH of gas to just hold off the pressure. And once you have like 80 marines and 8 ravens late game, there is no stopping it. Just put auto turret walls in front, and lol as banelings are useless. | ||
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Poptarts
United States5 Posts
On October 26 2010 01:20 Pixelcat wrote: Maybe get a ghost out for the infestors but not sure exactly how that works out. I like the approach and the upgraded marines are awesome. This is also what I am currently thinking because infestors are becoming a main concern of this build. Ghosts using EMP against infestors would make them somewhat useless. The main concern of using Ghosts would be the cost of it on top of the Raven. Another concern would be the micro of both the Ghosts and the Infestors. If the infestor can use Fungal Growth on the marine - ghost army, the problem is still there. There should be others but by addressing these concerns, it might just be able to make the build stronger. I'm gonna keep trying this strat later because I really like Ravens! | ||
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Hail Eris
United States20 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On October 26 2010 01:57 Hail Eris wrote: I see you using HSM on lone infestors later in the game. This seems wasteful. Wouldn't it be better to swap some of those ravens out for ghosts? I saw a ghost academy go down in one of the games but no ghosts were produced. I would take a Raven personally. The Raven OHK's an Infestor with HSM, and if there is another next to it severely injures it. And then one minute later, can throw down two Auto Turrets or a PDD. A ghost would essentially lose its worth after it EMP's or Snipes an Infestor. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Just some points: More Medivacs-Medivac cut the effectiveness of infestor play. and isnt as gas heavy as people believe. Weren't BW medics 50/50? More Stim Micro- you a-move alot of times Plus i think you can push around 6:30 which comes before the baneling nest most times. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On October 26 2010 02:28 Raiden X wrote: Saw the replays and i think their is definite potential Just some points: More Medivacs-Medivac cut the effectiveness of infestor play. and isnt as gas heavy as people believe. Weren't BW medics 50/50? More Stim Micro- you a-move alot of times Plus i think you can push around 6:30 which comes before the baneling nest most times. Medics cost 50/25. And I feel pretty confident that Zergs will quickly learn to get a baneling nest asap whenever they scout a rax with a reactor pumping, or multiple raxes. | ||
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
On October 26 2010 02:28 Raiden X wrote: Saw the replays and i think their is definite potential Just some points: More Medivacs-Medivac cut the effectiveness of infestor play. and isnt as gas heavy as people believe. Weren't BW medics 50/50? More Stim Micro- you a-move alot of times Plus i think you can push around 6:30 which comes before the baneling nest most times. Well the lack of medivacs was more bad play on my part then part of the strategy :D. The exact amount that should be gotten would vary depending on the game. What do you mean by stim micro? If you think about kiting I don't think it is worth it as marines have a very fast attack speed and you would lose a lot of DPS if you don't do it perfectly. If you think about general micro like spreading, retreating some while the others shoot etc. then yes, such things should be applied as much as possible. I'm not a pro .As for ghosts, I think they could be added in late game since only a few are needed to cripple infestors and they can sort of soft counter ultras/BLs with snipe. In mid game he will need to cut banelings for every infestor so you should be able to just overpower him. The good way to deal with infestors is to retreat when he tries to cast fungal (a lot of players will move their infestor forward to do this) but leave 4-5 marines, stim them and focus the infestor. He will either try to run away (you may still catch him) which will discourage him to do it next time (this shouldn't be neglected ), or he will be forced to waste a fungal on 4-5 marines. This strategy would definitely introduce a lot of micro wars. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On October 26 2010 00:28 avilo wrote: How coincidental Considering how imba Z is right now, especially versus T, I have been experimenting with mass ravens, marines/med/tank as well...as it's the only thing that really seems viable long term...and even then, it still gets raped from Zergs.The only problem of why this will never work versus a good Zerg is because HSM is so slow that they always can run their entire ling/muta/baneling/roach ball directly into your army and suicide it, and the HSMs actually help them more than you. It has some potential though... Here are some replays: Starting into mass raven if I remember right. Manage to kill lots of banelings with HSM, but that was more or less the Zerg's bad control than me doing something good. Unlike irradiate, HSM leaves the game in the hands of your opponent after it's cast I think I didn't pay attention for 1 split second, if I remember right...and lost 5000 marines. Otherwise this replay might be a mech replay lol. Can't remember. If it's mech, you can lol @ how hard zerg can crush that now too with late game ultras + neural. This one is an incredibly long TvZ with marine/tank/raven/medivac into -> Zerg macros and defends -> muta harrasses you -> into you lose. Which is basically every TvZ this patch. You seem to have gone for a 1-1-1 with a FE. The thing about that vs mass marine is that you can't apply pressure. :-\ | ||
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yggdrasil
Germany21 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Here are some of the things that Z could use against it. Firstly, ling/roach is going to counter the marines well enough throughout early game, especially if Z can get ahead in upgrades, which is entirely possible. I saw PDD mentioned earlier and would like to point out that PDD does NOTHING to Roaches. While Roaches DO cost 25 gas, going with a 2:1 ratio means you're spending 125:25 for every 3 supply, which is very non-gas-intensive and can do well enough to get through the mid-game. ---- Adding Infestor or Blings will give you all the oomph you should need to hold the marines back indefinitely while you get some BLs or just beef up your production to a level you're happy with. HSM is a great ability and I'm glad to see it being used more, but I don't think this completely nullifies Mutalisks either. Mutalisks out-run both Ravens and the HSM, so they could apply pressure back and could always use the misslies offensively by getting the mutas into the Raven ball and allowing the missile to hit, dealing huge damage to both sides. ---- One big aspect of this is going to be creep management. I think if executed properly, this can exploit the terrible mechanic that is creep movement bonus, hopefully to a point where Blizzard does something about the gimped Hydralisk (but now I'm just dreaming). ---- At any rate, this looks like a potent strategy that requires more than 1a out of the Terran player, so I wouldn't be completely pissed off if I lost to it personally. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On October 25 2010 15:21 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Wait, really? You should be warned for this post, maybe banned. Also, since pdd stop hydra shots, and you're going to constantly be removing zergs creep, I would imagine that Hydra's are the worst thing to counter this style of play, but that's just theorycrafting, since I haven't tried this yet. As for roaches, you can easily get marauders quickly if need be, and then abuse his base with banshees, which i'm assuming you will need to get late-game anyway since that's the best counter to infestors Terran has. Sure, warn/ban me for posting the truth. The whole point of mass ravens is exploiting the lack of GTA units of zerg because most don't build hydras. Roach attacks aren't affected by PDD, and easily counter marines. Ravens fly slow as shit and extremely expensive so every one you lose will cost you dearly. You don't need mass ravens to kill creep. You only need 1 raven. | ||
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