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[G]TvZ Marine/Raven - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
October 25 2010 19:28 GMT
#81
just watched the replays.

WOW!!!

i loved how those ultras and blings just poof into thin air. this is really strong. all i would really add is a few hellions for a fit of extra splash damage but only if there are lings around.

watching roaches try to run away from HSM made me feel warm and fuzzy inside

+ ==

6 poll is a good skill toi have
trotskyist
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Belgium87 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 19:38:59
October 25 2010 19:36 GMT
#82
hey OP great post. thanks for this. please lets not try to upset the mods because they are closing terran threads like no tomorrow.

anyway, alot of people suggesting drops... the drops arent necesarry b/c the marines are so mobile and the ravens are flying units already...

people arent realizing that this build has a very fast second rax followed by a fast ebay. if you go 1/1/1 then like the OP said you cant apply early pressure.

Also alot of people are suggesting hellions, which indeed are good against banelings and lings but are bad against roaches. plus if you just spend that money on marines, you are getting upgraded units that can also attack air. I think sticking to marines is best.

the OP likes to push out with about 16 - 20 marines early on then continues with small marine pressure groups, this strategy really does look like SK terran from BW.

One thing thats brilliant about this strategy is how many bunkers you build, LOL that is freakin hilarious.

the terran has sick macro, much better than my own ... that is why im worried maybe this build is too complex for me
Tilorn
Profile Joined July 2010
Serbia75 Posts
October 25 2010 20:20 GMT
#83
Watched all the replays, and I gotta say, I'm amazed! Just a few helpful tips:

Watch the idle SCVs after building something, often times you forgot em for prolonged periods of time in the first few reps.

Second, also in the first few reps, there are some gaps when making waves of marines, and those few seconds can mean the game if the zerg attacks right there and then.

More on topic now. This strat gives me the hope I lost the moment I learned MMM, the sheer fun of the mass rine + ravens is just amazing. Feels like old times.

Thanks for making my day, the whole week, and my whole sc2 gaming expirience.

PS samo nastavi tako kralju, odlican si!
Sad but true
AveiMil
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway138 Posts
October 25 2010 20:32 GMT
#84
Unless you are expecting to be fighting Roaches you really should be getting +1 Armor before +1 Weapons. +1 Armor is very good against un-upgraded Zerglings. In fact +1 Armor is better than Combat Shield
ilve
RifleCow
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada637 Posts
October 25 2010 21:23 GMT
#85
Good on the experimenting. I loved BW ZvT in that the marine SV army was so fragile but even if you destroyed their marine army constantly, as long as they have the high SV count the zerg was screwed. Hopefully, Marine/Raven is the new standard of play in ZvT.
hohoho
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
October 25 2010 22:39 GMT
#86
The thing I love most about this build is the distinct similarities between how Ravens and Science Vessels are used. For instance on Ultralisks, by themselves Ultra/Bling would annihilate a pure Marine comp. But with Ravens, specifically HSM, it's a whole 'nother story. PDD's take away, what, half the health of an Ultralisk and a fifth of those next to it? Gogo "irradiate", and if you're clever you can use them to kill off entire bling balls before they reach your marines and even put down turrets to block them. It's so fucking clever.

I tried it earlier (going to spare you the replay, it was my first time and it was so horrendous on my part I don't know how I won) in a TvZ. I was scared when I kept losing my army, but I went back to my base and got a huge banana grin when I had 50 more marines in my base waiting.
J-C-erloeser
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany55 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 23:59:28
October 25 2010 23:53 GMT
#87
maybe,
ghosts instead of ravens?
snipe the mutas/ultras and all the other BIO lol
emp infestors and get the nuke to prevent zergs backing off (i.e. cutting escape routes).
i like turtles
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
October 26 2010 00:32 GMT
#88
In the game vs HelloWorld, couldn't you start the 4th gas a bit earlier and use the mules approx 30 seconds earlier too

You could also use the unused factory to make addons for your starports

Possibly more mules+more starports at some point

Excess resources could be used for the level3 armor since you had 2000/2000 several times
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 01:41:37
October 26 2010 00:57 GMT
#89
On October 26 2010 08:53 J-C-erloeser wrote:
maybe,
ghosts instead of ravens?
snipe the mutas/ultras and all the other BIO lol
emp infestors and get the nuke to prevent zergs backing off (i.e. cutting escape routes).


I already went over this. Snipe does next to no damage against Ultra's (45? Don't Ultra's have like 400 or 500 HP?)

Ravens are better in every feasible way. PDD's nullify Hydra's and Muta's, HSMs rape the shit out of Banelings, Lings, Hydra's, Muta's, and even take away 1/4th the health of an Ultralisk and Auto Turrets soak up damage from banelings and draw fire from zerglings and roaches while doing retarded DPS.

Oh, and one minute after this, they can just do it again. Ghosts are only good for EMPing Infestors and gimmicky mass snipes on Muta's, but a Raven could just send one HSM and one shot an Infestor or bring all the Muta health down to almost nothing.
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
October 26 2010 01:03 GMT
#90
HSM does 125 damage though? 125x4 = 500 hp
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 01:33:12
October 26 2010 01:32 GMT
#91
On October 26 2010 10:03 nalgene wrote:
HSM does 125 damage though? 125x4 = 500 hp


I thought it did 100. I don't think it one-hits mutas.

edit: yes, it is 100 according to liquipedia. YAY LIQUIPEDIA!!
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
October 26 2010 01:36 GMT
#92
So 5 hits+1hp....
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 01:38:47
October 26 2010 01:37 GMT
#93
Ultras block units and don't get bonus vs turrets :-\

You shouldn't have to HSM ultras. They shouldn't have enough. to really screw with you.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
October 26 2010 01:40 GMT
#94
Wow pretty cool style.

I will be trying this. I really think the + Turret time will complement this build Nicely. Also Since your Medevac count will be kinda low, wouldn't the +Starting energy Upgrade would benefit you? Since your Main army will be only minerals you can afford to spend that Gas on the obscure upgrades

"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Reki
Profile Joined August 2010
Philippines89 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 01:52:27
October 26 2010 01:51 GMT
#95
is getting the +2 bunker space worth getting? I was kinda itching to get it but I never saw kme ever touch it.
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
October 26 2010 01:55 GMT
#96
On October 26 2010 10:51 Reki wrote:
is getting the +2 bunker space worth getting? I was kinda itching to get it but I never saw kme ever touch it.


He got it in Game 4 on Shakuras Plateau.
Gonzodamus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States273 Posts
October 26 2010 02:01 GMT
#97
Played this against the computer a few times to get the timings and I'm eager to try it in gold league later on tonight.

One thing that I'm running into is that I'm incredibly mineral rich in the early game, right after I take my expansion. It's probably my terrible macro, but do you think it would be worth it to add marauders into the mix? I considered doing this with the tech lab rax to help spend my money and add a better cushion for banelings to explode into. I worry about losing a bit of ground to air though.

My micro certainly isn't up to the snuff of the player in the replays, but I've still got a pretty good feeling about this. At the very least, I'll surprise a few goldie zergs
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 02:19:09
October 26 2010 02:01 GMT
#98
edit: nvm nice build
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
drdovetalk
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore27 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 02:16:22
October 26 2010 02:09 GMT
#99
Love the discussion - As a zerg it's great to see the competition evolving.

One of the key principles behind this strategy is to force the zerg to use gas heavy units (e.g. infestors/mass banelings/hydras) to counter big marine balls and to catch/snipe raven packs. During army clashes, zerg loses gas units while the terran loses mineral units, assuming the ravens are kept alive. (which is why infestors are needed to root the ravens since FG cannot be stopped by PDD)

Hence I pose a query to the OP and other readers: Have you considered the effect of mass queens as a defense? Queens are very good anti-air units that soak only minerals (150 minerals) and take 50 secs to build. (Compared to ravens that take 100 min, 200 gas, and 60sec to build). Queens have enough health to survive more than 1 HSM. With sufficient queens, you can spread creep aggresively (improving your ability to bring the queens to the frontline), and transfuse can be used to mitigate HSM. Their range 7 makes it a little easier to snipe ravens. And they do not use larvae to produce. 2 Hatch constant queen production should be able to compete with 2-base ravens.

Gas previously used for hydras/mutas/corrupters can be channeled towards two supporting builds:

1) Infestor/bling into Ultra. More infestors (which in turn gives more FG to root armies and bypass PDDs). Banelings clear the path of auto turrets and marines, giving the infestor/queen space to work. Teching to ultras and +armor eventually allows zerg to ignore auto turrets, because auto turrets do not benefit from +damage upgrades and are armored (i.e. die fast to ultras). Ultas function well against marines due to armor. Mass queens continue to support ultras through transfuse.

2) Infestor/Roach into hydra. Again more infestors to lock down the ravens and damage marine balls such that roaches can 1-shot them. Roaches tank the damage of auto-turrets and marines. Teching to hydras greatly increases the damage output of the zerg army (and upgraded hydras outrange marines so there's micro potential there). Transfuse helps keep roach tanks alive. Roach/hydra/queen all benefit from +rangedamage upgrades, so there's good upgrade synergy there.

I know PDDs can negate queen damage. But from a zerg perspective that may be a good thing. Forcing a PDD to drop means less turrets and HSMs which means a safer environment for the queens/infestors to do their thing. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, FG's damage bypasses PDD.

Edit: someone posted above that it is difficult to support roach/hydra/infestor production off 2 bases. My anecdotal ZvZ experience tells me that it is indeed very possible to do so. 2 bases can give easily u an army of 5 infestors, and tons of roach/hydra by around the... 15(?) minute mark. Now if you need more infestors, hydras have to be cut. And queens can be used to fill in the anti-air gap.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 02:39:20
October 26 2010 02:37 GMT
#100
On October 26 2010 11:09 drdovetalk wrote:
Love the discussion - As a zerg it's great to see the competition evolving.

One of the key principles behind this strategy is to force the zerg to use gas heavy units (e.g. infestors/mass banelings/hydras) to counter big marine balls and to catch/snipe raven packs. During army clashes, zerg loses gas units while the terran loses mineral units, assuming the ravens are kept alive. (which is why infestors are needed to root the ravens since FG cannot be stopped by PDD)

Hence I pose a query to the OP and other readers: Have you considered the effect of mass queens as a defense? Queens are very good anti-air units that soak only minerals (150 minerals) and take 50 secs to build. (Compared to ravens that take 100 min, 200 gas, and 60sec to build). Queens have enough health to survive more than 1 HSM. With sufficient queens, you can spread creep aggresively (improving your ability to bring the queens to the frontline), and transfuse can be used to mitigate HSM. Their range 7 makes it a little easier to snipe ravens. And they do not use larvae to produce. 2 Hatch constant queen production should be able to compete with 2-base ravens.


I dunno. It is certainly possible and would be fairly entertaining to play. I just don't know how good mass queens are against upgraded marines with stim. You can transfuse quite well but marines just do ridiculous damage. Likewise, ravens don't usually stick around. It would be interesting to fight though.


Gas previously used for hydras/mutas/corrupters can be channeled towards two supporting builds:

1) Infestor/bling into Ultra. More infestors (which in turn gives more FG to root armies and bypass PDDs). Banelings clear the path of auto turrets and marines, giving the infestor/queen space to work. Teching to ultras and +armor eventually allows zerg to ignore auto turrets, because auto turrets do not benefit from +damage upgrades and are armored (i.e. die fast to ultras). Ultas function well against marines due to armor. Mass queens continue to support ultras through transfuse.

2) Infestor/Roach into hydra. Again more infestors to lock down the ravens and damage marine balls such that roaches can 1-shot them. Roaches tank the damage of auto-turrets and marines. Teching to hydras greatly increases the damage output of the zerg army (and upgraded hydras outrange marines so there's micro potential there). Transfuse helps keep roach tanks alive. Roach/hydra/queen all benefit from +rangedamage upgrades, so there's good upgrade synergy there.

I know PDDs can negate queen damage. But from a zerg perspective that may be a good thing. Forcing a PDD to drop means less turrets and HSMs which means a safer environment for the queens/infestors to do their thing. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, FG's damage bypasses PDD.

Edit: someone posted above that it is difficult to support roach/hydra/infestor production off 2 bases. My anecdotal ZvZ experience tells me that it is indeed very possible to do so. 2 bases can give easily u an army of 5 infestors, and tons of roach/hydra by around the... 15(?) minute mark. Now if you need more infestors, hydras have to be cut. And queens can be used to fill in the anti-air gap.


As with all these, suggestions, I would be curious how to can deal with the constant trading and the increasingly large raven fleet. Most of my games(which I will post later) and the posted reps peaked around 15-20 minutes with the zerg burning out. I would love to see more queens personally. I think they would really be interesting to play against. Constantly transfused roaches would really be a pain to deal with.

But then again, I can get tanks or ravens or banshees and less ravens as well.

PS. Turrets are not armored.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
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